Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
I see.
So the 1,000 ships in a subsector means 1,000 "Combat ships" in a fleet and do not include support ships.
The same would go for the reserve fleet also then?
Thanks Hans.
Subsector Fleet make-up in 1105
- Thread starter Chuck Anumia
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So the 1,000 ships in a subsector means 1,000 "Combat ships" in a fleet and do not include support ships.
The same would go for the reserve fleet also then?
Thanks Hans.
Just to point out.
It says that in every book that keeps getting quoted. But I'l like to point out those are estimates not exact numbers but an average. In Traveller's Digest they quoted the Reserve Fleet as higher than the 1000 number for Lishun Depot during the Rebellion.
I thought that was the mothballed ships, not the Reserve Fleet. The TD writeup of Lishun Depot was a CT product. I don't think the reserve fleets (Fleet 1001 to Fleet 1320) had been thought of before MT.
Hans
Hans makes a good point. I will elaborate.
IYTU, you'll need to determine how much of the Mothball Fleet consists of Reserve Ships. Both MgT and T20 address this as a follow up. As we've mentioned in a couple threads, the non-canabalized mothball ships can be reactivated, as needed, for the reserves.
The term 'reserve fleet' as it's used today refers to ships that have been mothballed. The Reserve Fleets (1001 to 1320) consists of active ships (Their description is pretty much cut-and-pasted from the description of the subsector navies of CT days). Thus mothballed ships can be said to belong to reserve fleets but they do not belong to the Reserve Fleets. The Reserve Fleets are more in the line of auxiliary organizations or "home guard" units. Or perhaps "coast guard".
Hans
Yes. MgT also likes the use of the term Colonial Fleet, suggesting that Reserve Fleets are home guards for lack of another term.
The Traveller is different than circa 2100 Earth. The US once maintained a large reserve fleet in mothballs until the end of the Cold War, when it began dismantling that fleet. That is without discussing operational activities of the active fleet.
But there is nothing to suggest the Mothball Fleet reports to the Reserve Fleet command. It would be an assumption. MgT and T20 make other assumptions.
This is mincing words.
One should take the direction IYTU that is most comfortable based on the canon documents owned, detail desired and ease of ref'ing.
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
IMTU
I always thought the "Reserve Fleet" consisted of the same number of ships as the IN but only at a lower Tech level (like 13-14 for the Reserve Fleet and 11-12 in Mothballs)
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The term reserve means lots of things.
During the FFW reserve means the state of the art Imperial squadrons held in reserve beyond the Spinward Marches that are ready to be deployed to reinforce the front line.
Colonial fleets can be drafted into Imperial fleets and thus provide yet another reserve - which is how MT designated them.
Reserve is also used to denote mothballed ships that can be reactivated.
Think of all the things level can mean in AD&D
During the FFW reserve means the state of the art Imperial squadrons held in reserve beyond the Spinward Marches that are ready to be deployed to reinforce the front line.
Colonial fleets can be drafted into Imperial fleets and thus provide yet another reserve - which is how MT designated them.
Reserve is also used to denote mothballed ships that can be reactivated.
Think of all the things level can mean in AD&D
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Before retiring them, the USN had "reserve frigates" that were crewed by reservists as training ships, fully war capable.
Expanding this concept from one country on one planet to multiple planets would account, in part, for "active" reserve fleets. Certainly some that aren't mothballed at any rate.
Expanding this concept from one country on one planet to multiple planets would account, in part, for "active" reserve fleets. Certainly some that aren't mothballed at any rate.
AFAIK there is no evidence as to how the Imperial military taxes are split between subsector and regular units. For many years I thought I had seen it mentioned somewhere that it was a 50/50 split, but I've been unable to find the reference and have come to the conclusion that I must have made that up out of thin air. I know others have made the same assumption, but apparently it's just an assumption.
As for the lower tech level, a subsector/duchy navy/fleet would surely be built to the standard of its highest TL high-population world(s), so it would be true in subsectors/duchies like Regina and Lunion, but the Reserve Fleet in the duchies of Mora, Trin's Veil, Rhylanor, and Glisten, for example, would presumably have been (mostly) built to TL15 standards.
Hans
I've never seen an article or book mentioning financial splits between any units. Perhaps in a Group Thread or something like it. Its an interesting topic.
MgT is very clear that Reserve Fleets will have lower tech. Typically transferred from the active fleet after their primary lifespan. Now planetary navies may be an interesting twist. Some versions of Traveller have discussed Military sensor suites.
Clearly INS would not be advertising their latest tech secrets with planetary navies. This is one interesting Traveller 3I weakness. CT never clearly stated what is cutting edge beyond black globes, perhaps.
Thoughts?
CT described the subsector navies as having lower tech, overlooking the fact that logically some subsector navies would not have lower tech. When MT transposed the subsector navies into Reserve Fleets, that feature (or bug as the case may be) came along. I am not at all surprised that MgT says the same. Frankly, I would have been more surprised if it hadn't. The question remains, does it make sense that a force that is raised and maintained in a subsector where TL15 construction facilities are readily available would linit itself to not using any TL15 units at all? It definitely makes no sense to me. Buying some obsolescent ships from the regular IN, sure, that's possible (though it's even likelier that such ships would be mothballed straight away). However, by the middle of the 11th Century at the latest, such onsolescent IN ships would mostly be TL15, so one way or another the Reserve Fleets would logically be mostly composed of TL15 ships, spanking new state of the art or 40 years old clunkers depending on which subsector.
The IN would probably keep black globes a secret (even likelier if black globes were any particular use in combat, but even so, a secret is a secret
). But with many Imperial worlds approaching borderline TL16, most of the hardware available at TL15 would have ben invented or acquired by hundreds of Imperial worlds.And let's not forget that the Imperial Navy's ships presumably are mostly built on member worlds. That's where most of the shipbuilding capacity (except for the prototypes built at depots) is.
Hans
There is always a bit of caution needed when mixing canon from different rules sets. For whatever reason, the different rules sets did not seem too constrained by previous canon about the milieu.
The FFW boardgame's squadron quality rules pretty firmly imply that colonial squadrons are lower tech than their mainfleed counterparts. MT pretty well says it, as apparently does Mongoose. However, Rancke correctly points out that the High Guard rules allow a subsector fleet to be built out of any A-port within its borders, and it would be folly for Rhylanor, Mora, Trin and Glisten to spend their funds on inferior hand-me-downs from the Navy when they can keep their money at home and boost employment and the local economy by building their own, better, ships. Moreover, the AHL supplement tells us that the Imperium was converting TL14 ships to TL15 as early as 1078, which means at worst the colonial fleets have been transitioning to TL14/15 hybrids for almost 30 years as of the start of the Fifth Frontier War.
(As important, and curiously, it tells us the Imperium's been using TL15 computers since at least the launch of the first AHL in 991. Check out the computer rating of the Fleet Intruder.)
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Question
Assume PLANETARY Navy, building it's own ships on its own planet. Further assume Class "B" shipyard.
In light of the quoted rules, I gather, in the assumed situation, that only non-starships can be built. (No problem for me as it is a planetary navy.)
Would a planetary navy ever build starships, and why?* (Assume now a class "A" starport.)
No problem for #1 but wouldn't #2 circumvent the rule intent? (Sneaky way to get another "subsector shipyard" were none really exists.)
How do others see this?
Assume PLANETARY Navy, building it's own ships on its own planet. Further assume Class "B" shipyard.
In light of the quoted rules, I gather, in the assumed situation, that only non-starships can be built. (No problem for me as it is a planetary navy.)
Would a planetary navy ever build starships, and why?* (Assume now a class "A" starport.)
* 1) Needed for colony supervision and protection.
* 2) Ship to be "sold" to Subsector Fleets or Imperial Fleets.
No problem for #1 but wouldn't #2 circumvent the rule intent? (Sneaky way to get another "subsector shipyard" were none really exists.)
How do others see this?
Why? The rule does not distinguish between Class A, B, C, D, or E starports. If a world has the requisite tech level, it can build ships for its own use. Evidently the lack of a class A starport does not prove that there are no local shipyards, just that they don't provide all the services that a class A starport is supposed to provide.
And, yes, I know that TCS, the canonical wargames rules, says otherwise. I take that as a game artifact to simplify the game. My assumption is that a starport doesn't get a Class A rating if the local shipyards don't work for civilians.
* 3) Ships needed to fulfil treaty obligations (Support the Imperium in times of need).
* 4) Ships "needed" for the sake of national pride.
* 4) Ships "needed" for the sake of national pride.
Only a problem if you're playing TCS.
Hans
I presume the question is, "Would a planetary navy who is a member of an interstellar government ever build starships, and why?" Garoo in the Marches is non-aligned with an A-port and a serviceable tech level; they might harbor some interest in ships capable of reaching their neighbors. Non-aligned Arden, with a B port and a tech level just capable of interstellar flight, already controls two neighbors - probably with ships they bought from the Imperial ports at Frenzie or Vilis.
Canon hints that the Sword Worlds navy is an amalgam of planetary navies with interstellar capability. Not the way I do things - I have them buy cast-offs and borrow technical personnel from the Zhodani, a la the Sov model, so they can have something at least capable of threatening an Imperial ship. However, Library Data (N-Z) describes them "confederalizing" naval forces in wartime with individual ships under command of local officers and squadrons under Confederation officers.
The Vargr - well, they're Vargr. 'nuff said.
As to Imperial and Zho planetary navies, I don't see reason for either to build interstellar capable military vessels. Taking a police ship into a system with an inhabited world might imply some things that world considered insulting, drawing a complaint and Imperial attention. However, I could see the sector duke or a subsector duke granting authority to have interstellar-capable police ships to deal with the potential for pirates hiding out in uninhabited neighboring systems or systems too low-tech or low-pop to patrol their own space. They'd be under the command of a planetary government but "deputized" to act on behalf of the subsector government.
The buy last decades' hardware because it's what they can afford. Of course, the financial health of 3I is excellent for evaluating their actual capabilities.
I think we're all in favor of ship upgrades. However, there are many modern day correlations (that would probably put us in the Pit if I started reciting them) which shows that military construction can be politically and indifferent to what is best for the local population.
Let's take Tigress, it is TL15. We spent an entire thread ripping it up and putting different versions out before the crowd. I suggest that the average TL15 subsector capital could not build it and would be discouraged from it.
3I must have some governance over this. We know from MgT that 3I can call up a planetary navy for service during war (colonial fleets, etc). "We see you've built a BatRon of Tigress battleships. Those will be pulled into INS service for use against the Vargr. Thank you."
Arden is capable of building jump-1 ships for its own use. Well, they are capable of building jump-1 ships for civilian use too, but they don't. Which implies that interstellar merchants of Arden buy their ships elsewhere.
And Arden may prefer to buy jump-2+ warships from others rather than build jump-1 warships themselves.
Hans
Or perhaps "Your membership charter obliges you to support the Imperium in times of war. Those 500,000T monitors you're building are no use to us. Please start building some jump-capable combat vessels or some smaller monitors similar to those our battletenders xarry."
Hans
