Subsector Fleet make-up in 1105

[savage]

Or perhaps "Your membership charter obliges you to support the Imperium in times of war. Those 500,000T monitors you're building are no use to us. Please start building some jump-capable combat vessels or some smaller monitors similar to those our battletenders xarry."


Hans

Interesting thought. Possibly. However, MgT qualified them as non-jump capable planetary navies. I'll have to look for the reference. So, we are at an interesting dividing point. I think the financial work you and others are doing will shed light on the capabilities of 3I and perhaps the things it might ask member states.
Of course, much of it might be loose or non-canon suggestions it is still valuable based on mainworld uwp's.

However, I really think 3I could have too many Naval shipyards for its own good. Military secrets are fleeting. The Solomani, Aslan and Vargr should easily be at TL 15 if every navy base has full access to all imperial designs.

 

[Carlobrand]

Why? The rule does not distinguish between Class A, B, C, D, or E starports. If a world has the requisite tech level, it can build ships for its own use. Evidently the lack of a class A starport does not prove that there are no local shipyards, just that they don't provide all the services that a class A starport is supposed to provide.

And, yes, I know that TCS, the canonical wargames rules, says otherwise. ...

Also High Guard II. "Starships are designed by navies using their own specifications to produce the exact type of ship desired; ... Availability: Starships (with jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A starport; non-starships (without jump drives) may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A or class B starport."

MegaTrav wording is almost identical.* GURPS I don't know. Mongoose I don't know either; I have their High Guard now but not their core books.

I emphasized "navies" to point out that the starport restriction is intended to apply to navies. I waffle on whether the rule makes sense or not. A sufficiently advanced planetary government might have an interest in having its own military yards capable of building and maintaining jump-capable ships. However, I tend to think that if the planet wants starships for its own navy, there's probably money to be had in building civilian starships as well, so I don't see why there'd be a military capability but not a civilian capability. I therefore tend to infer that the starport's construction capabilities reflect the local military's capabilities and interests.

Arden, for example, seems to be content to buy elsewhere. It's B port is adequate to provide routine maintenance. Its neighborhood, with C's and D's and E's and a couple B's 3-4 weeks away, isn't exactly merchant heaven, and its local government is clearly interested in projecting power, but there's no real need to spend money upgrading local capabilities when your money spends just fine over in Vilis and there's no real local competition.

However, I don't think the universe will shatter if the rule is ignored.

*Add: Also Book 2 - "Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. The military procures vessels through these yards ..."

 

[rancke]

However, I don't think the universe will shatter if the rule is ignored.

Perhaps not, but it will take away one useful explanation for implausible starport ratings.


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Or, a lower tech world can buy cherry picked components from their higher tech neighbours, and incorporate them in locally constructed hulls.

 

[rancke]

*Add: Also Book 2 - "Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. The military procures vessels through these yards ..."

"A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present." [HG2, p.20]"​

Emphasis mine.


Hans

 

[savage]

"A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present." [HG2, p.20]"​

Emphasis mine.


Hans

• Perhaps at a much longer construction rate if a yard is not present.
• I do not think the worlds are regularly building higher tech component vessels other than as a high priced experiment. There may be no prime directive. But, 1100 years into 3I, there needs to be a plausible explanation why all worlds are not TL15.
• A ship restriction to the Subsector is economically ridiculous.
• A ship restriction to planetary shipyards is ridiculous. Ships can be built anywhere in the native star system or know space. It's an economic and political decision.

 

[Vladika]

• A ship restriction to the Subsector is economically ridiculous.
• A ship restriction to planetary shipyards is ridiculous. Ships can be built anywhere in the native star system or know space. It's an economic and political decision.

If building ships for planetary navies is performed off planet (out of system) then an exchange of credit value should attach. For instance, the table in TCS.

Then the question arises; what about maintenance and repair? Particularly where there is a notable difference in TL. I would assume that if a ship can be built, on planet, for the navy, then, built there or not, it can logically be repaired there (taking TL into consideration).

I'm NOT a fan of the "any ship can be built on any planet" school of thought. I like the fact that there are only four Class A TL15 shipyards in the Spinward Marches. Altering that, at least for CT, pretty much destroys the setting.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm NOT a fan of the "any ship can be built on any planet" school of thought. I like the fact that there are only four Class A TL15 shipyards in the Spinward Marches. Altering that, at least for CT, pretty much destroys the setting.

I know that you are not a fan of MgT, but one of the things that is unique to the MgT ruleset that I like is how they redefined the Class-B & C Starports:

Class-A: Can build any ship of any size
Class-B: Can build ANY ship (Jump or non-Jump) up to 5000ton
Class-C: Can build small craft
​

It is more believable, and at least explains where a number of the Escort & Auxiliary class ships might come from, as well as allowing much of the commercial ship construction to proceed at the B-type ports (freeing up A-type facilities for large-commercial and/or capital projects).

That way, you can justify toning-down the "any ship can be built on any planet" phenomenon by spreading the shipbuilding around based on tonnage, and still have plenty of worlds with no meaningful shipbuilding capacity.

Hans has pointed out before (and I agree) that the Type-B ports of CT/MT do not make much sense.

 

[rancke]

I'm NOT a fan of the "any ship can be built on any planet" school of thought. I like the fact that there are only four Class A TL15 shipyards in the Spinward Marches. Altering that, at least for CT, pretty much destroys the setting.

In what way does it destroy the setting? And what setting are you talking about?


Hans

 

[savage]

... MgT, but one of the things that is unique to the MgT ruleset that I like is how they redefined the Class-B & C Starports...

Hans has pointed out before (and I agree) that the Type-B ports of CT/MT do not make much sense.

I also agree with these statements. I don't know if its unique, but it is a reasonable approach.

IMTU, shipyards do not randomly build everything and anything due to economics. These shipyards are businesses unless we discuss naval shipyards at a depot.

 

[aramis]

I know that you are not a fan of MgT, but one of the things that is unique to the MgT ruleset that I like is how they redefined the Class-B & C Starports:

Class-A: Can build any ship of any size
Class-B: Can build ANY ship (Jump or non-Jump) up to 5000ton
Class-C: Can build small craft
​

.

What page is that on? My PDF copy, I can't find that.

 

[whulorigan]

Starports in MgT

What page is that on? My PDF copy, I can't find that.

See MgT Core Rulebook, p.178 (Grey-box sidebar):

Facilities are the starport’s repair and construction ability. A shipyard allows for the construction of new vessels. A shipyard capable of building all types of ships can construct small craft (less than 100 tons), spacecraft (100 to 5,000 tons) and capital ships (more than 5,000 tons).

and compare this to the starport-type chart at the bottom of the same page.

STARPORTS
Class	Quality	Facilities
A	Excellent	Shipyard (all); Repair
B	Good	Shipyard (spacecraft); Repair
C	Routine	Shipyard (small craft); Repair
D	Poor	Limited Repair
E	Frontier

Compare the above to the ship definitions in the grey-box sidebar on p.105 of the MgT Core Rulebook,:

Definitions
A spacecraft is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle – anything that can travel through space under its own power. A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more. A starship is a ship which has Jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages from star system to star system. A system ship is a ship without Jump drives, confined to a single star system. Small craft are any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of Jump and are constructed using their own rules which will be presented in a future supplement.

 

[Vladika]

See MgT Core Rulebook, p.178 (Grey-box sidebar):

Definitions
A spacecraft is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle – anything that can travel through space under its own power. A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more. A starship is a ship which has Jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages from star system to star system. A system ship is a ship without Jump drives, confined to a single star system. Small craft are any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of Jump and are constructed using their own rules which will be presented in a future supplement.

and compare this to the starport-type chart at the bottom of the same page.

STARPORTS
Class	Quality	Facilities
A	Excellent	Shipyard (all); Repair
B	Good	Shipyard (spacecraft); Repair
C	Routine	Shipyard (small craft); Repair
D	Poor	Limited Repair
E	Frontier

Compare the above to the ship definitions in the grey-box sidebar on p.105 of the MgT Core Rulebook,:

I don't see that at all. To me it is saying that a shipyard that can build ALL (Only Class A in the table) can built smallcraft, non starships and starships.

A Class B can build spaceships (non starships) and small craft but NO Jump capable starships.

I think you are going to find "spacecraft" as used here, errata. It is certainly unnecessary if they meant "starship".

 

[whulorigan]

A Class B can build spaceships (non starships) and small craft but NO Jump capable starships.

Except that MgT also defines the term "System Ship" (see quote in my post), which EXPLICITLY refers to a ship that is non-Jump capable. If they wanted B-Type ports to be capable of building non-starships only, they could have used their own terminology and said "System Ships up to 5000 tons".

 

[Tobias]

I think you are going to find "spacecraft" as used here, errata. It is certainly unnecessary if they meant "starship".

i
I don't think so. The definition on p.105 contradicted not only by the rules on starports, but also by the skill specializations, which uses the same size-based categories.
It's actually a rule I rather like.

 

[whulorigan]

i
I don't think so. The definition on p.105 contradicted not only by the rules on starports, but also by the skill specializations, which uses the same size-based categories.
It's actually a rule I rather like.

So do I. It is a much more believable distinction, IMO.

 

[Carlobrand]

Or, a lower tech world can buy cherry picked components from their higher tech neighbours, and incorporate them in locally constructed hulls.

Chimerae!

"A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present." [HG2, p.20]"​

Emphasis mine. ...

Ooh, right. That's, like, the next line, too. I'm an idiot.

... There may be no prime directive. But, 1100 years into 3I, there needs to be a plausible explanation why all worlds are not TL15. ...

Maybe for the same reason some parts of this world are farming with animals?

... A ship restriction to the Subsector is economically ridiculous. ...

Yah, a little. Well, a lot, really. It costs quite a chunk to move a ship from one place to another, paying for the fuel and the crew, or paying to carry it as cargo on something really big. However, when compared to the increased cost and decreased efficiency associated with lower tech manufacture, it's a relative steal. And, the four TL15 worlds of the Marches comprise some 36 billion folk, 14% of the Marches' Imperial population. There's enough production capacity there to meet the sector's demand for ships, given that they're going to end up lasting 40 or more years. Worst case, there's a big population of "Honest Al's" TL14 vintage models still out there simply because they still work and can be bought real cheap. I honestly don't see why anything lower tech than that is still flying inside Imperial borders.

And, of course those odd but cheap little local-built ships like the Free Trader.

 

[rancke]

Yah, a little. Well, a lot, really. It costs quite a chunk to move a ship from one place to another, paying for the fuel and the crew, or paying to carry it as cargo on something really big. However, when compared to the increased cost and decreased efficiency associated with lower tech manufacture, it's a relative steal.

What decreased efficiency? If I interpret the vanilla CT rules correctly, higher tech levels are not cheaper. Sometimes better, but never cheaper. If you build a jump-2 ship at TL15 that costs, say, 100 MCr, then it is MCr100 TL15 credits (equivalent to Imperial credits). If you build a similar ship on a TL11 world, it will cost MCr100 TL11 credits, which is equivalent to MCr60 Imperial credits.

IIRC there were some contradictory rules in other versions, but the whole thing was such a mess that I gave up on it and just assumed that building jump-X ships at the lowest possible tech level was, for one reason or another, economically feasable. Probably TL11 ships are not 40% cheaper than equivalent TL15 ships, but all it takes to make them viable is a couple of percent.

Note that the IN is specifically said to use TL 9¹-14 ships in addition to TL15 ones. I assume that these ships are mostly non-combatant vessels of a TL suitable to their jump drives.

1 I'm not sure about the lower bound; could be 10 or 11.​

Hans

 

[Dagrill]

I don't see that at all. To me it is saying that a shipyard that can build ALL (Only Class A in the table) can built smallcraft, non starships and starships.

A Class B can build spaceships (non starships) and small craft but NO Jump capable starships.

I think you are going to find "spacecraft" as used here, errata. It is certainly unnecessary if they meant "starship".

Hi,

Mongoose uses spacecraft to refer to Jump capable space faring craft of between 100 and 5,000 tons, see the Pilot skill specialities on page 57.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Yah, a little. Well, a lot, really. It costs quite a chunk to move a ship from one place to another, paying for the fuel and the crew, or paying to carry it as cargo on something really big. However, when compared to the increased cost and decreased efficiency associated with lower tech manufacture, it's a relative steal. And, the four TL15 worlds of the Marches comprise some 36 billion folk, 14% of the Marches' Imperial population. There's enough production capacity there to meet the sector's demand for ships, given that they're going to end up lasting 40 or more years. Worst case, there's a big population of "Honest Al's" TL14 vintage models still out there simply because they still work and can be bought real cheap. I honestly don't see why anything lower tech than that is still flying inside Imperial borders.

You are making the assumption the big 4 planets can produce enough spare parts to supply the whole sector, I've grounded my players on more than one occasion whilst the have to procure a part that isn't available and whilst that's MTU, I don't see anything in canon that doesn't support it.

Regards

David