Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
HG supersedes 5KT spacecraft, with the capital class commencing at 2001 tons, presumably because hull structural integrity requires sectionalizing at this point.
Subsector Fleet make-up in 1105
- Thread starter Chuck Anumia
- Start date
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Off-hand I wouldn't know, though if it were possible it would serve my aims to have access to a mono-sectional 5KT hull.
Mongoose isn't GDW, so errata isn't really their forte.
Mongoose isn't GDW, so errata isn't really their forte.
Decreased efficiency as in you end up with a power plant that takes up more room, leaving you with less room for cargo or other needs. For example: your Jump-2 ship needs at least a power plant-2, takes up 6% of your ship at TL11 but 2% at TL15. That lost space represents lost profit.
That 60% idea is interesting. That's a TCS bit: "All taxes are received in local credits, each worth one credit on its world of origin (when constructing or repairing ships there), but somewhat less in interstellar exchange." You're only getting 60% at an E port, which isn't going to be building ships for you (unless "you" in this case are that planet's governor building it for your planetary navy, as you pointed out earlier), but that's just a quibble.
I see a few potential issues, most significantly having some player come up to me with his pocket full of Imperial credits from 5 years merchanting, insisting that the local shipyard TL11 should give him a 20% discount to build his pet design. Lemmee think: Okay, it's all locally produced stuff, maybe that's OK.
Then he says, "Wait, I'm using a model 2 computer. Instead of using their local 9 megacredit unit - well, 7.2 with the discount - I'm gonna buy it at this TL7 C port for 4.5 megacredits and have it shipped to them. And the maneuver drive is a 2G TL7 ..."
At some point you ask why all the stuff isn't discounted to its base tech level before you have to pay for it, since they only need to spend a thousand credits a ton or so to ship it and it's so much cheaper to import from somewhere else. It's a perfectly rational interpretation, but the whole construction bit goes to chaos.
On the other hand, let's say there's some sort of protectionist regulation going on: "You want the Model/2 from Planet Claire, you can just fly the ship there and buy one after you take delivery on the ship, but under our law we can only construct with locally manufactured goods and union labor."
That's not to say they didn't buy the computer themselves from Planet Claire and then pocket the difference but, hey, that's how business works.
So let's see how this works out:
The classic CT Book-2 free trader is MCr37.08 with 82 dT cargo, 10 staterooms and 20 low berths.
A TL9 HGII version of the same with the same performance, staterooms and berths, has 91 dT cargo space. Nice, but it costs MCr52.320 to construct (in quantity). On the other hand, a TL9 A-port under TCS delivers it at MCr36.624 Imperial. Okay, that actually works.
A TL15 version constructed at Rhylanor has 95 dT cargo - saved on drives. It costs MCr42.720 Imperial (in quantity).
Okay, I officially like that.
Garyius2003
SOC-13
So let's see how this works out:
The classic CT Book-2 free trader is MCr37.08 with 82 dT cargo, 10 staterooms and 20 low berths.
A TL9 HGII version of the same with the same performance, staterooms and berths, has 91 dT cargo space. Nice, but it costs MCr52.320 to construct (in quantity). On the other hand, a TL9 A-port under TCS delivers it at MCr36.624 Imperial. Okay, that actually works.
A TL15 version constructed at Rhylanor has 95 dT cargo - saved on drives. It costs MCr42.720 Imperial (in quantity).
Okay, I officially like that.
Not asking you to do the designs and math if you haven't, but have you done cost/cargo TL calcs for the standard designs? If so, can you post them?
I'm assuming Starport class A in all cases, so they are going to build ships for me. According to Striker Book 2, p. 39, credits from a TL11 world (with starport A) are worth 60% of the credits from a TL15 world.
I have a vague memory that the credit conversion tables in Striker and in TCS differ, but I haven't seen my copy of TCS in a long time, so I can't compare them.
Hans
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It's not a major thing. The only significant change is the power plant.
The classic Scout is MCr 29.43 with 3 dT cargo. By HGII, the ship is built at TL11 for MCr 42.280 in quantity, has 22 dT cargo - but the conversion rate for a TL11 A port brings it down to MCr 33.824 Imperial. A TL13 build has 24 dT cargo and costs MCr 33.732 Imperial in quantity, after a 10% discount. A TL15 build has 26 dT cargo and costs MCr 32.680 Imperial in quantity; the TL15 variant's actually a bit cheaper and better, but not so much that the Imperium might not choose to eat the extra to throw business at a world that needed an economic boost.
The classic Far Trader is MCr 66.175 with 61 dT cargo (I get MCr65.7). By HGII, the ship is built at TL11 for MCr 79.320 in quantity, has 65 dT cargo - but the conversion rate for a TL11 A port brings it down to MCr 63.456 Imperial. A TL13 build has 69 dT cargo and costs MCr 62.748 Imperial in quantity, after a 10% discount. A TL15 build has 73 dT cargo and costs MCr 60.120 Imperial in quantity.
The classic Subsidized Merchant is MCr 100.035 with 200 dT cargo and an additional 15 dT space available in the drive bay (usually used for more cargo, but enough room to upgrade to a nice J2/2G, though you'll need to put a 40 dT fuel tank in the main cargo bay). I should note here that this model is just wacked up wrong - they use C drives when B's are adequate. With B drives installed, you get 25 dT available in the drive bay.
Anyway, with B drives, it comes in at a more appropriate MCr 80.235 (at which price it might just be able to run without the subsidy). By HGII, the ship is built at TL9 for MCr 113.912 in quantity, has 228 dT cargo - but the conversion rate for a TL9 A port brings it down to MCr 79.7384 Imperial. A TL13 build has 232 dT cargo and costs MCr 93.8808 Imperial in quantity, after a 10% discount. A TL15 build has 236 dT cargo and costs MCr 94.712 Imperial in quantity.
Y'know, the more I think about this, the more I like it.
So, there is the only plausible reason is that there is a military prime directive either directly or indirectly through economics?
If I look at FSotSI it has the best example of naval architects addressing this issue. They have the same design built across multiple tech levels. Each lower tech level should lose some efficiency/combat ability, but maintains similar usability and compatibility. All of them are fighting the Rebellion together.
Wow, yeah, they differ in a big way. TCS is using 5% increments per tech level, Striker's using 10%. Okay, but the base assumptions are different. TCS assumes the local currency is devalued and everything is in the same price - just in local currency. TCS says a ship will cost less at a lower tech world.
Striker assumes everyone's income is going down as the tech level gets lower - those GNP figures - but everything costs the same unless you import it from off world. Those GNP figures are not stated to be in local, devalued currency. A local-made shotgun costs the local buyer the same amount whether "local" is a TL5 or TL15 world, but the local buyer is poorer on a TL5 world than a TL 15 world. It doesn't saying that a ship made at the local starport will cost less; it's saying the locals have less money and if they try to import high tech gear from offworld, it'll cost them more than it would someone living on that high-tech world.
Both Striker and TCS are wargames, so applying either to the milieu as an economic guide is tricky, but TCS says the ship is cheaper. Striker just says it costs more to import stuff - and that's a hella big markup. If they bought in Merchant Prince the TL7 world would suffer an 80% markup importing from a TL15 world, not a 500% markup. On the other hand, we're talking weapons, and weapons sellers are famous for their profiteering ways.
Me, I like the TCS model because, among other things, it encourages trade. A 150 Imperial credit shotgun on Rhylanor is a 68 Imperial credit shotgun on Belizo, and if there's any sort of market on Rhylanor for shotguns, little Belizo can capitalize on their cheap labor and cheap resources to make money selling shotguns for what they'd see as ridiculous prices. No point in going into shotgun manufacture on Rhylanor unless you could offer something to compete with the cheap import. (Here's an idea: a TL13 shotgun made from superdense metal, 1/3 the weight of the standard shotgun. Maybe add a recoil system of some sort in the stock because, if I remember my physics, the kick is going to be worse.) If I were integrating Striker, I'd say that table only applied to governments trying to get hardware for their militaries - governments are always getting ripped off. Just think of it as a "golden hammer" table.
Actually, TCS kinda reminds me of Juarez. Stuff came over the border and it was regular prices, some deals but nothing earth-shattering, but if you went INTO Juarez and knew where to look - man, you could get some great prices. Not so safe to do nowadays, but it does give some ideas for adventuring.
Carlo, the costs ARE in local credits in Striker. See rule 73.D., in Striker Bk 2, page 39.
Striker hits low-tech worlds twice... Fewer credits AND they're local credits. Stuff built at that local TL=9 SP=C world is 60%, before shipping, of the cost for the same built on a TL=15 SP=A world.
D. Imported Equipment: It is possible for a world to purchase and import
military equipment of a higher tech level than may be produced locally. However,
such equipment is both more expensive and more difficult to maintain. The army
budget is received in local credits, and all purchases of equipment other than
imported equipment are in local credits. Imported equipment must
be purchased in credits of the exporting world.
military equipment of a higher tech level than may be produced locally. However,
such equipment is both more expensive and more difficult to maintain. The army
budget is received in local credits, and all purchases of equipment other than
imported equipment are in local credits. Imported equipment must
be purchased in credits of the exporting world.
Striker hits low-tech worlds twice... Fewer credits AND they're local credits. Stuff built at that local TL=9 SP=C world is 60%, before shipping, of the cost for the same built on a TL=15 SP=A world.
:CoW:
So ... the tech 5 native averages Cr2000 per annum in local credits, and Book 3 tells us that subsistence level, not even ordinary level, is Cr300 a month for food and lodging - Cr3600 annually - and that's in local credits too. And we have three different scales for the economy: one in which the TL7 world's credit is worth 20 cents on the Imperial "dollar", one in which the TL7 world's credit is worth 60 cents on the Imperial "dollar", and one in which the TL7 world's credit is worth - at an 80% markup, I think that comes to 55.56 cents on the Imperial "dollar".
Ummm - no. Maybe that's canon, but it's seriously broken. Of the three, at least TCS and Merchant Prince come within spitting distance of each other, and they don't imply that half the population is living a shade above starvation level just because they're still using Model-T's and steam-driven ships. A tech level speaks to a world's industrial base, what it can and can't build for itself. That's not the same as saying it can't feed or shelter itself.
I don't know if Striker draws its data from historical reference or not, but the Striker figures are both way off from historical data and out of step with other Traveller canon. There is no way a TL5 world is averaging Cr2000 per person in local credits in a game that says Cr3600 is what is needed to just get by, and there is nothing in any of the trade systems that suggests a 500% markup between a TL7 and a TL 15 world.
Ultimately that markup exists primarily so you don't have to explain why an infantry division with Garands isn't being supported by its own battalion of combat-armored gauss rifles wearing grav belts, which is something the trade rules can't do. It's a mechanism to keep high tech rare in your low tech Striker combat world, and that is all it should be. An economic premise whose primary purpose is to keep lasers away from the primitives in a wargame, and which flatly conflicts with the game's other economic assumptions, is not an economic premise that can be exported beyond that wargame.
More reflective of the milieu would be to have a table that bore some resemblance to the trade rules. If the trade rules suggest that Garand-world can actually afford a bit of combat-armor and other high tech gear to defend their government from its enemies, then the table should reflect that "reality". That table is just plain awful.
That Cr300/month is for offworlder in some form of lodgings.
Oh, and the data in Striker does match pretty well to "One Cr=One 1977 US $"
That Cr2000/year on a poor, non-ag, non-in world turns into Cr1024 per year at TL5... or Cr85 per 30 day terran month, or Cr78 per imperial 28 day month.
And, the benchmarks are from CT... which says (on page 109 of TTB)
Which means that only on the worst of them is it not hitting at least starvation level.
And "no lodgings" (essentially, camping or squatting) is a viable option for many locals. Or if they own homes, they can reduce those costs as well.
THey could afford about Cr6 per month in payments. Enough to cover maintenance on a hut or shanty.
Oh, and the data in Striker does match pretty well to "One Cr=One 1977 US $"
That Cr2000/year on a poor, non-ag, non-in world turns into Cr1024 per year at TL5... or Cr85 per 30 day terran month, or Cr78 per imperial 28 day month.
And, the benchmarks are from CT... which says (on page 109 of TTB)
Starvation Level: bare minimum of food, Cr60 per month; dismal lodging, Cr60 per month.
Subsistence Level: reasonable food, Cr120 per month; acceptable lodging, Cr180 per month.
Ordinary Level: good food, Cr209 per month; good lodging, Cr200 per month.
High Living: excellent food, Cr600 per month; excellent accommodations, Cr300 per month.
Subsistence Level: reasonable food, Cr120 per month; acceptable lodging, Cr180 per month.
Ordinary Level: good food, Cr209 per month; good lodging, Cr200 per month.
High Living: excellent food, Cr600 per month; excellent accommodations, Cr300 per month.
Which means that only on the worst of them is it not hitting at least starvation level.
And "no lodgings" (essentially, camping or squatting) is a viable option for many locals. Or if they own homes, they can reduce those costs as well.
THey could afford about Cr6 per month in payments. Enough to cover maintenance on a hut or shanty.
IMTU I allow a government to build up to 4kt as non-capital jump ships (If you can build a 2kton hull, you can stick 2 together), anything of 4,100 Ktons or over is a 'capital' ship, although at higher TL's it is probably a large Escort, rather than a true capital ship,
Regards
David
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Since my Hydra class is based on the concept of clamping hulls together, I support this interpretation.
However, the question I found myself facing, is how large you can make a single hull without being forced to sectionalize it.
However, the question I found myself facing, is how large you can make a single hull without being forced to sectionalize it.
So, basically what we're saying is, if you're TL5, half or more of of your population is squatting. Because you're TL5, and TL5 seems to mean no effective economy.
As you point out, worst case scenario evolves from a poor, non-ag, non-ind world, a population in the millions on a world that has difficulty producing food due to the limited water and largely absent atmosphere. In other words, the population has grown too big to feed itself but is not yet big enough to benefit fully from industrialization (assuming it can so benefit at some point on this world). On such a bleak world, with that Cr1024 average, we are presented with the specter of better than half the population not earning enough for subsistence-level food alone, and whatever shelter they have is improvised or donated. Tell me a cusp world on a lousy planet has a lousy economy and miserable conditions, I'll believe you. However, there's a lot more going on there than tech level.
(This is a revolution waiting for a trigger, though by the rules this particular situation is as likely to have a democratic government as a despotic one - it's just likely to change every few years. But, that's a criticism of the way we roll government type, an entirely different argument.)
At the other end, the TL5 world may be agricultural - an eden world with a population big enough to produce a lot of surplus, but not too big yet. It may be industrial - a really big population and many cities and industries. It may be rich. Could be agricultural and rich, that's not uncommon. Or it could fall in between and not earn any bonus. Could be anything from the Cr2000 basic to Cr2400 on a pleasant agri-world to as much as Cr3840 on a rich agriworld. And yet, much of the population is still barely eaking by. Because it's TL5.
Out the other way, our TL15 poor non-ind non-ag hellworld is enjoying an average income of Cr11,264. Yes, even many of the poor are enjoying, "High living," spending the equivalent of 600 1977 dollars per person per month on the best food and drink. (Of course, that could explain why so many of them tolerate totalitarian governments, bread and circuses and all that - but then that's not factored into the government roll either. Again, a different issue.)
There is no question that improving tech will raise living standards, and I at tech level 7 have no idea how far that can go. However, there is a certain baseline. Given adequate conditions, an economy will stabilize around a certain point that meets the necessities for the bulk of the population - and an agriworld certainly meets those conditions. There is nothing intrinsic to TL5 that suggests these people are going to be impoverished - just that there's going to be a lot more of them working in the agri sector than there might be in a higher tech world.
This is an issue not at all captured in our trade classifications, but we accept that much must be simplified in the name of ease of play. It does seem to get captured in our living standard - we go back to those poor non-ag non-ind TL15 souls living the high life despite their apparent poverty, thanks no doubt to truly miraculous food production tech. So, like I said, no problem with the high end - it's the low end that's absurd.
A $2000 1977 dollars annual income hasn't been seen since the 1880's. It's something you expect from a TL4 economy where much of the economy is underground: a large part of the economy in farmers who consume what they grow and then trade chicken eggs to the doctor for his services. At the point where you're industrializing, at TL5, there's much more dependence on cash, therefore much less invisible economy. At that point, the average income should, by definition, be sufficient to provide an average standard of living unless there is some significant problem with the world that makes it difficult for the locals to provide for their food and shelter needs. Even allowing that there's still some invisible economy going on at TL5 and that we're debating the cost of housing - and I could give you three paragraphs on that alone - the bottom shouldn't be less than about Cr4000.
And that still leaves the problematic table - the one that gives us a 500% or worse tech level mark-up that would be an absolute joy to the merchant players if it were actually reflected in the trade rules. So, you buy yourself a load of TL 15 goodies - something like the TL15 equivalent of a solar powered calculator, something that will be especially desirable and useful on a low-tech world, or maybe combat armor for the ruler's elite guard (or his enemies) - take them to the TL7 world. You reap yourself a small fortune in local currency, which is of course not worth much offworld but you convert that local wealth into lots and lots of local goods that have a fixed value. An iron ingot is an iron ingot, after all, among many, many other options. Then you take that elsewhere and end up with beaucoup Imperial credits. Goodness, why isn't everyone getting rich this way?
The trade rules and the wargame rules have very different goals: the trade rules want to make money for the players at a reasonable rate, while the wargame rules want to make the high tech so absurdly expensive that the locals will mostly use their own tech for warfare rather than grab an advantage with offworld tech. There's no hint in the trade rules that a 500% turnover is a regular thing between TL7 and 15 worlds. 80% is the norm, and then random chance after that. The question then becomes: do we operate our interstellar trade economy by the trade rules or the wargame rules?
On such a world, most everyone will be just above starvation, population growth will be negligible, and life will be generally miserable, yes. But most people also won't be buying their food (they'll be growing it). When there's no industry and no significant agriculture, there's no economy to speak of.
On a typical TL5 no-trade-codes, the average income is Cr166/30 days, or Cr153 per 28...
Easily enough for dismal lodgings, rented, and halfway between starvation and subsistence level, assuming no farming/gardens... but gardens are HIGHLY likely. If the average person on such a world is a subsistence farmer (much as the US was for the comparable era), they were cash poor.
The costs given are for a pure cash, "buy it all," mode. You can cut the effective costs in half if they're raising their own, or even to 1/4. (I know that I can buy 10# of potatoes for half what Wal*Mart charges by going out to the Farms outside of Palmer, and using my own bag.)
What do you mean, "but"? "Canon" and "seriously broken" are basically synonyms.
But seriously, I agree with you. Furthermore, I don't like (and for MTU have gotten rid of) the whole fiddling with local credits, which is an unnecessary hassle in actual play. In my house rules, both average GNP, monthly upkeep and cost of equipment are all subject to the same modifier, based on TL. For example, on a TL 5 world, the base average GNP per capita per year is Cr 2000, the minimum monthly upkeep for a single human adult is Cr 20 times Soc and designed equipment prices are 20% of the book price. While on a TL 13 world, the values are Cr 15000, Cr 150 times Soc and 150% respectively.
I don't particularly mind this situation existing. I don't think going to a TL 5 world should translate into time traveling to the 1920s. The concept that lower tech worlds can and do buy equipment (and hire personnel) from higher tech worlds in order to protect themselves also provides for a simple way of preventing unscrupulous adventurers from wreaking havoc without having to invoke the Imperium - which the world in question might not even be a member of.
IMO, the problem lies in the assumption that the cost of food and lodgings is the same at all tech levels. Although in some places food is cheaper and lodgings more expensive and in other places vice versa, a good rule of thumb would be that for an average lifestyle, food costs about 30% of your expenses, lodging costs about 30%, necessities cost about 30%, and conforts costs about 10%. So the canonical costs correspond to an average income of Cr8,000, or TL8. For other worlds these costs should be adjusted correspondingly. So for our TL5 world, the cost of average food and average lodging should be Cr50 each, allowing someone with average income to do well enough on 2000 (local) credits per year.
Hans
Hans
Garyius2003
SOC-13
Pre-Soviet Russia, 1880 to 1910. A TL5 nation darn near not only freed its hereditary land bonded slaves but was pulling the society to TL6, by paying to free the serfs and importing a main rail system and tech/experts to run their ports/shipyards.
If the Czar had slammed the rebels down a little harder in the 00s and WW1 had been 10 years later the serf bonds would have been paid off and Russia would have been TL6 with a working class instead of land bonded slaves.
ETA: getting a little nasty, but it was 100 years ago so I should be okay under board rules, they were doing so under the guidance of an inbred ruling family (very badly inbred) and noble class (who all attended the same high school/college) and almost made it even so, and it was the ability of the small middle and the upper working class to gain education that led to the rebel leadership gaining effectiveness (plus Kropotkin, which is a whole nother story)
Now all you have to do is justify it. What I'm seeing at the moment is an effort to press the social structure into the service of poorly written rules, rules that make about as much sense to the social sciences as invisible ships with gigawatt fusion plants and magic heat sinks do to physics.
Simply put: where the resources permit and unless there are forces at play that prevent it, humans will tend to form economic groupings that serve the basic needs of the majority. Where the resources permit but there are forces at play that prevent their meeting their needs, humans will work to subvert those forces. Given enough pressure on a large enough percentage, they will even revolt and destroy the society rather than continue to endure a society that does not serve their basic needs. The idea that half or more of the population will be, "just above starvation, population growth will be negligible, and life will be generally miserable," just because the technology is low, is a peculiarly American notion arising from our passion for technology. In point of fact, where the land is fertile enough and there's sufficient water, we humans have done quite well with little more than some animals and a source of wood and stone.
There is nothing to suggest a society more advanced than stone and animals, one with access to metal forging and industrial processes, say, will as a society suddenly find themselves starving amidst plenty unless there is some specific force at play that induces those circumstances. Technology alone doesn't do that. Where you find large populations of people that are not getting basic needs met, there's always something - social dynamics, population pressures, crop failure, something - that's afoot.
We both agree, I think, that a society can be relatively well off but cash-poor. As I pointed out, that was the dominant state of affairs in the 19th century and before for the U.S. and Europe, and it still is for large parts of the world. Where we disagree is the degree to which that can occur. As I said, the equivalent of 2000 1977 dollars annual per person is late 19th century U.S., a primarily agrarian society with growing cities and the beginnings of industrialization. By the 1920's it was in the $3500 range. In the depths of the depression, with cash and jobs harder to come by and more bartering to meet basic needs, it was around $2400. So, the idea that Cr2000 is a good mark for an average TL5 society just doesn't cut it.
The bottom line is, Cr3-4000 is about the bottom limit for TL5 unless you want to invent some excuse for making large numbers of folk on an earthlike world go hungry or spend most of their trade in barter. Cr6000's probably a good bet for TL7 since the writer's were TL7 when the game was written, so we'll cut the difference and say Cr5000 for TL6, as the invisible economy continues to shrink and luxuries start being more plentiful. After that, it's up to the game designer. However, much below those figures at TL5, and you need to craft a very good excuse or you're playing "magic heat sink" with your sociology.
Now, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat:
Here I am, a TL7 citizen of planet Usa, a strange little place where the oligarchs have decided to create a mirror of 1977 Amero-Solomani culture, but they won't let us vote - mostly because if they did we'd toss this whole concept out the window and start advancing our technology. Average income's a relatively comfortable Cr6000 per person. I want to import something from a TL15 world, but my money's only worth 20 cents on the TL15 dollar. I have to pay 5 times as much. But, wait: the merchant pays the regular price on the TL15 world, and now he shows me this booklet that says he's entitled to an 80% markup on what HE paid - in Imperial credits, no less. Now my price has gone up: instead of paying him 500% - which is break-even for him - I have to pay 500% on 180%. I'm actually paying 900%. WHAT??
But, wait again. If this other book here is right, my money's worth 40 cents on the dollar, not 20. I have to pay 250% (my charge to buy Imperial credits with my local money) on the 180% he wants (his cost plus the 80% tech level profit margin). That's - why that's 450%. Well, that's awful close to what Striker says the cost for me to import from a TL15 world is.
It is not a perfect correspondence, but if we assume the TCS valuation rules are in play, AND we assume that the Merchant Prince trade rules are in play, then we end up with results that hit roughly around what Striker says it costs to buy something on import. And, that's exactly what the Striker table is telling you - how much it costs to import something.
:ssb: Presto! :ssb:
You may applaud now.
