MGT Only: Planetary invasion ships

[Condottiere]

Which is pretty much at least a factor four level tech difference.

Primary interstellar polities can pull it off; the Solomani are training local militia to be able to resist at least anything non-serious like raids, though not when their own internal peacekeeping forces come a calling.

 

[McPerth]

If you are talking TL15 vs TL15 forget landing troops until you have achieved total space superiority and then rendered every meson sled and deep meson gun on the planet into slag.

Your combat landers are destroyed with one meson blast - how many MCr and troops is that lost?

I always have stated space supremacy (not just superiority) as a sine qua non condition to initiate the invasion.

About meson defenses, I agree deep meson sites must be neutralized first (probably by neutralizing sensors or power, as they are too difficult to detect), Also, maybe it could be a nice idea to have some meson screens in the landers (though they need volume, and so the cargo capacity must be reduced, or the landers must be larger).

Is the same problem as an amphibious assault while the shore batteries are still active...

Drop capsules make some sort of sense in the face of that since they can be dispersed enough that one meson gun can only kill one capsule, and if you have lots of decoys then some may make it to the ground.

Mind you if you haven't hammered their local point defence then the capsules would all be knocked out by rapid pulse lasers or fusion guns.

So, we face the same problem, just more weapons can destroy them (OTOH a kill is less damaging)...

 

[wbyrd]

rather than face defenses head on an invading force can always land in regions not defended by ground batteries. While long range meson guns might pose a problem. With no direct sighting they would be fairly inaccurate, and have a hard time targeting landing craft, and fighters/bombers.

 

[mike wightman]

The point defence weaponry is easier to spot and neutralise from space (a heavily armoured cruiser with a good meson screen and lots of meson bays and or missile batteries will do the trick here).

Then you can send in your drop troops supported by gunships (what is the smallest ship you can get a factor 9 screen in?) to mark the meson site sensors for bombardment.

Meanwhile the defender must also use scattered troop deployment to try and counter your drop troops, since any concentration of force or armoured vehicle is an easy kill from space.

Battle dress really comes into its own on this type of battlefield because of its ability to carry heavy weapons as force multipliers against any combat armoured defensive troops.

Once you start to think of what TL15 weaponry does in Traveller you realise the TL15 battlefield is very different from the TL5-8 battlefield...

 

[mike wightman]

rather than face defenses head on an invading force can always land in regions not defended by ground batteries. While long range meson guns might pose a problem. With no direct sighting they would be fairly inaccurate, and have a hard time targeting landing craft, and fighters/bombers.

No TL15 world IMTU would have such a gap in its defences...

consider the air defence radar systems that cover Europe and the USA - try and find a gap in that.

You have to make your own gap, which tells the defenders where to move their portable sensor systems, or you make a gap then a gap then a gap and try to overwhelm, or go for shock and awe - make a massive gap and get your drop troops down as fast as possible to allow you to get your own mobile sensor net and point defence in place...

cat and mouse.

Someone should have made a game for this...

 

[Brandon C]

consider the air defence radar systems that cover Europe and the USA - try and find a gap in that.

If someone in the radar network is on your payroll, you'll know exactly where to find a gap

 

[wbyrd]

No TL15 world IMTU would have such a gap in its defences...

consider the air defence radar systems that cover Europe and the USA - try and find a gap in that.

You have to make your own gap, which tells the defenders where to move their portable sensor systems, or you make a gap then a gap then a gap and try to overwhelm, or go for shock and awe - make a massive gap and get your drop troops down as fast as possible to allow you to get your own mobile sensor net and point defence in place...

cat and mouse.

Someone should have made a game for this...

Good point.

This is why you build HARM ( High speed anti-radiation Missiles) They had to develop them, and run constant Iron Hand missions against Vietnamese air defense radars.

Punching a hole in a sensor net is far less difficult than punching a hole in an interlaced ground battery net...

Electronic warfare craft, jammers and other nifty tools give you a much better chance of whiting out a net in an area large enough to drop your pathfinders,and commandos through.

use of decoys, to complicate the shoot no shoot decision..and of course EMP bombs to blind large regions in one shot.

mobile gun sleds could be used ..basically small craft fitted with barbettes to serve as a fast reaction force...but they can be countered by ortillery, and fighters.

It very rapidly becomes not only cat and mouse but a very very lethal game of chess/stratego/risk..can you patch the holes in your net, before the other guy gets a sizable force on the ground.

If the ground defense is a bit to slow to recover the enemy can drop small groups of commandos, or An orbital drop of G-carriers and G-tanks.So now the defenders suddenly have rapid, coordinated ground attacks on sensor nets to deal with...and gunsleds have tanks hunting them down.

Ya know that does sound like a game that needs to be made ..it would get intense fast.

 

[Brandon C]

I'll mention that for troops deploying in drop capsules, MgT Supplement 4 lists several specialized types of battledress that are useful for troops deploying without vehicles.

 

[McPerth]

The point defence weaponry is easier to spot and neutralise from space (a heavily armoured cruiser with a good meson screen and lots of meson bays and or missile batteries will do the trick here).

This will be setting (and the conventions and laws of war on it), as using mesons against ground targets is clearly nuking them (as would be using starship fusion bays, as described in MgT). I may be quite an optimist, but I envison a setting where those weapons are left for space (so, targets outside atmosphere are fine game, inside of it, they are not), out of fear of retaliation.

So, I believe, in this setting, lasers and HE missiles to be the main orillery support weapons (they are quite letal too against ground target, as they multiply their damage by 50 when going to personnel/vehicle scale).

After all, I don't believe the attacker to want to conquer a barren planet (unless it already was, off course ), nor the defender to have it after the battle, regardless it wins or losses.

Then you can send in your drop troops supported by gunships (what is the smallest ship you can get a factor 9 screen in?) to mark the meson site sensors for bombardment.

I'm afraid you think in CT/MT terms. In MgT the meson screens are not rated by factor as on them, but modify the meson damage.

Meanwhile the defender must also use scattered troop deployment to try and counter your drop troops, since any concentration of force or armoured vehicle is an easy kill from space.

Battle dress really comes into its own on this type of battlefield because of its ability to carry heavy weapons as force multipliers against any combat armoured defensive troops.

Once you start to think of what TL15 weaponry does in Traveller you realise the TL15 battlefield is very different from the TL5-8 battlefield...

Agreed in all this

No TL15 world IMTU would have such a gap in its defences...

consider the air defence radar systems that cover Europe and the USA - try and find a gap in that.

You have to make your own gap, which tells the defenders where to move their portable sensor systems, or you make a gap then a gap then a gap and try to overwhelm, or go for shock and awe - make a massive gap and get your drop troops down as fast as possible to allow you to get your own mobile sensor net and point defence in place...

cat and mouse.

This will also depend on the population of the world. Even a TL 15 low pop world is unlikely to have the whole planet covered by sensors and mesons to defend it.

And don't forget about jamming/chaff/whatever it is used as ECM at TL15. it can also help in making the gap you need, even if only for a while...

And, BTW, I remember ceirtain Mathias Rust landing on the Red Square in Moscow...

Someone should have made a game for this...

Agreed here. IE is in a too large scale...

 

[mike wightman]

Sadly Striker disagrees - meson weapons are used on the battlefield, meson weapons strikes are called in from orbit (hence the rules) and I believe Striker is the only place where city meson screens are mentioned.

As to thinking in CT terms - guilty as charged. I suppose the question becomes what is the smallest craft in MgT that can carry the very best meson screen (one with enough damage reduction to allow you to survive a hit or two - or better yet make meson fire ineffective).

 

[Brandon C]

Sadly Striker disagrees - meson weapons are used on the battlefield, meson weapons strikes are called in from orbit (hence the rules) and I believe Striker is the only place where city meson screens are mentioned.

I think MgT is the first edition of Traveller where meson guns (as well as fusion guns and particle beams) inflict radiation damage as well as regular damage.

As to thinking in CT terms - guilty as charged. I suppose the question becomes what is the smallest craft in MgT that can carry the very best meson screen (one with enough damage reduction to allow you to survive a hit or two - or better yet make meson fire ineffective).

In MgT, a meson screen is 20 tons and reduces meson gun damage by 2d6. A ship can mount one one screen per two power plant numbers, with cumulative effects.

 

[mike wightman]

Meson guns cause radiation hits in CT HG.

 

[McPerth]

Sadly Striker disagrees - meson weapons are used on the battlefield, meson weapons strikes are called in from orbit (hence the rules) and I believe Striker is the only place where city meson screens are mentioned.

I have never read Stiker, but my guess is that it says they can be used, and meson strikes can be called from space. That, by no means means that they are so.

IRW, nukes and gases can be used in battlefield, what is quite different that saying they are usually used.

That's why I said it will depend on setting, conventions and rules of war (and, off course, retaliation capacity, I'm not so naive)...

As to thinking in CT terms - guilty as charged. I suppose the question becomes what is the smallest craft in MgT that can carry the very best meson screen (one with enough damage reduction to allow you to survive a hit or two - or better yet make meson fire ineffective).

In MgT, a meson screen is 50 dtons (no power needs, though you can not have, as a rule of thumb, more screens than your PP number), and 2 of them in the same ship are quite likely to reduce a meson bay damage to bearable.

One meson bay hit (I guess a meson sled is, at most, its equivalent) is not likely to destoy one of the landers (as they are, without meson screens), through it could severely damage it.

 

[McPerth]

Meson guns cause radiation hits in CT HG.

So do them in MT (after all it's quite like HG). In both cases they roll in radiation table and in internal explosion table, without armor modification in any of them.

 

[McPerth]

Contradictory data...

In MgT, a meson screen is 20 tons and reduces meson gun damage by 2d6. A ship can mount one one screen per two power plant numbers, with cumulative effects.

In MgT, a meson screen is 50 dtons (no power needs, though you can not have, as a rule of thumb, more screens than your PP number), and 2 of them in the same ship are quite likely to reduce a meson bay damage to bearable

(bold is mine in both cases)

MgT:HG page 50 says one screen per two PP numbers, while table in page 64 shows one per PP number...

MgT:CB page 112 says a meson screen is 50 dtons. MgT:HG page 65 makes it dependent on the ship's size, begining with 50 dton (but also to reducethem with TL, at a cost). IDK where Brandon found the 20 dton number (though ITTR there's some conflict somewhere with a screen, not sure if meson or damper), but, given his proven knowledge, I guess it should be written somewhere...

 

[Brandon C]

MgT:HG page 50 says one screen per two PP numbers, while table in page 64 shows one per PP number...

I think the rule on p.50 is for CB designs, while the table on p.64 is for HG capital ship designs.

MgT:CB page 112 says a meson screen is 50 dtons. MgT:HG page 65 makes it dependent on the ship's size, begining with 50 dton (but allos to reducethem with TL, at a cost). IDK where Brandon found the 20 dton number (though ITTR there's some conflict somewhere with a screen, not sure if meson or damper), but, given his proven knowledge, I guess it should be written somewhere...

It's in the errata for HG, on the first page.

 

[McPerth]

I think the rule on p.50 is for CB designs, while the table on p.64 is for HG capital ship designs.

Quite accdeptable guessing...

It's in the errata for HG, on the first page.

I'm afraid I don't have those errata...

Where can it be found?

 

[Brandon C]

I'm agraid I don't have those errata...

Where can it be found?

www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/travhighguarderrata.pdf

 

[aramis]

The point defence weaponry is easier to spot and neutralise from space (a heavily armoured cruiser with a good meson screen and lots of meson bays and or missile batteries will do the trick here).

Then you can send in your drop troops supported by gunships (what is the smallest ship you can get a factor 9 screen in?) to mark the meson site sensors for bombardment.

Meanwhile the defender must also use scattered troop deployment to try and counter your drop troops, since any concentration of force or armoured vehicle is an easy kill from space.

Battle dress really comes into its own on this type of battlefield because of its ability to carry heavy weapons as force multipliers against any combat armoured defensive troops.

Once you start to think of what TL15 weaponry does in Traveller you realise the TL15 battlefield is very different from the TL5-8 battlefield...

Missile bays are going to be of VERY limited utility against deep site meson guns. Especially if they use arrays of redundant passive sensors connected by meson comms.

The ways you stop the deep site meson guns:
1) Infiltration/Espionage
2) Meson guns from space
3) scrub the surface with pattern bombardment - Missile and/or meson.

note that 3) isn't an option if one intends to use the planet and its infrastructure.

 

[pshrynk]

note that 3) isn't an option if one intends to use the planet and its infrastructure.

Something that all space faring adventurers would be wise to pay heed to!