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Shipboard safety and security

Spartan159

SOC-13
Knight
I'm looking for rules/articles regarding security/safety aboard ship. I am aware of the firefighting rules in Challenge 35 although they don't seem to scale with technology. Any pointers, thoughts, ideas? And as to the infamous "bounce them about with the artificial gravity" bit, just how fast do those A/G plates work and how specific is inertial dampening, is it by area or the whole ship in general?
 
Well, firefighting is SO easy in space just lower the partial pressure of the oxygen and the fire goes out. Usually this is done by venting the chamber to space This simultaneously chills the room and reduces the O2. I design my ships with Airlocks for every major compartment. Some vessels , each stateroom has pressure controlled environment for exotic passengers, so can be selectively vented. Hijacking, long corridor to the bridge, wait till the hijackers are at the bridge doors and open them with 3 atmospheres and at the same time vent the other end to space, impromptu hijacker cannon.

Safety means to me is multiple redundancies for major and mission critical items. Apollo carried 3 flight control computers. Note: This does not mean you mount 3 full ship's computers in classic, just that there are local special purpose computers for emergency use that are built into the item and are part of the "controls" (Accounted for if you are playing a version that keeps track of controls.) These are less efficient, but will allow you to perform that time critical engine burn to make orbit, or to land.

I suspect you are thinking more along the lines of pressure loss drills for the passengers. Getting them into and back out of rescue balls, lifeboats , or what have you. In my mind that is safety window dressing, making the passengers feel safe. True safety lies with the crew knowing their equipment and having the training, skills and spare parts needed to address any issue that comes along. Look at what happened to Apollo 13, command module life support was destroyed and they were able to use the lander to survive till they could land back at earth. So being able to do that kind of thing takes a well trained crew.
 
Well, on fire fighting aboard ship... Something of an expert here.

First, it depends on what kind of fire it is.

Burning solid "stuff" that produces ash like wood, paper, cloth, etc., can potentially survive a cycling of the air lock / depressurization and reflash when the atmosphere is returned. You need to thoroughly cool off such a fire and watch the area for several hours afterwards.

Burning liquids could be extinguished by venting, but coating the liquid with a fire retardant like foam is far better. Dry chemical will also put it out quickly.

In both cases, but particularly liquids, smoke is a huge danger. Venting would work, but you couldn't depressurize and retain the atmosphere as it would be heavily contaminated by the fire's gasses and smoke.

Electrical fires only last until the power goes off. They stink horribly but aren't much of a threat unless they ignite other "stuff." The usual is a big flash, a loud bang, and the "fire" is over. Oh, the smoke on these is extremely toxic usually. You gag and cough horribly if you get a snoot full unlike what happens with the amateur fireworks shown on sci fi movies when control panels "explode."

Then there's special cases... You have something that has it's own oxidant in it. Vent that and you do nothing. The fire continues because it doesn't need outside oxygen.

If enough heat is present, venting and restoring the atmosphere only delays ignition, not eliminates it. Heat transfer in a vacuum isn't going to be quick either. Radiation is not nearly as effective at removing heat as convection or conduction are.

Venting is also not going to be a realistic option if the compartment isn't directly accessible to space. If you have to vent the fire through a number of other compartments to space expect every one of them to suffer damage to some extent. You can't use the ventilation system as a route as outlined below.
Another problem is, potentially, venting other compartments to get the compartment with the fire vented may cause additional casualties (damage) to the ship or crew. What if there are crew in some of those compartments who don't have pressure or vac suits? What if there's equipment or supplies that will be damaged or rendered useless if exposed to a vacuum?

Another real danger on a ship is the fire can spread. It could ignite insulation on wiring, or the heat on a bulkhead ignites paint or other materials on the far side. Now you have two compartments on fire. It loves to travel through ventilation ducting. You have a 30 year old ship that's never had the ducts cleaned properly? That fire is going to ignite all the Eeeewww in those vent ducts and once it does, that fire goes everywhere that duct goes.
Or, you've had things painted 10 times, and there's three layers of vinyl tile on the decks. That just makes it easer for the fire to ignite the far side of bulkheads and decks.

Then there's training. Most civilian ships don't have crews that are particularly well trained in emergencies like this.

http://shipdetective.com/advice/safety/fires.htm

The usual result is a "Chinese fire drill" with lots of panic and little effective action.

Since Traveller doesn't list a particular skill for this sort of thing (say, damage control, or firefighting), there really isn't a mechanism in the game to know how well a character would be able to deal with such an event.

If you've never been in such a situation it goes for the uninvolved something like this:

There is an alarm, announcement, etc., of a fire aboard the ship. You begin to secure hatches and such to prevent it spreading.

The next thing you notice is the smell of smoke. It permeates everything and even a small fire can be smelt at quite a distance.

You get zero information on what's happening. For all you know the rest of the ship had burned to the waterline.

It takes forever for the fire to be declared out and things to return to "normal."

You feel panic you keep fighting down. That's for those who've never been there done that.

If you're uninitiated or trained in firefighting, when you see a sizable fire where it shouldn't be, the first two reactions are usually panic followed by flight or confusion.

Automatic fire fighting systems work with variable results. They are also more expensive up front to install and require regular maintenance. So, you install the system and forget about it for 10 years... It doesn't work when you need it. Surprise!

Overkill on extinguishing is also possible. This results in damage to stuff that wasn't damaged by the fire or other secondary problems.

That's my 2 cents on shipboard firefighting.
 
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Well, firefighting is SO easy in space just lower the partial pressure of the oxygen and the fire goes out. Usually this is done by venting the chamber to space This simultaneously chills the room and reduces the O2. I design my ships with Airlocks for every major compartment. Some vessels , each stateroom has pressure controlled environment for exotic passengers, so can be selectively vented. Hijacking, long corridor to the bridge, wait till the hijackers are at the bridge doors and open them with 3 atmospheres and at the same time vent the other end to space, impromptu hijacker cannon.

That's like the ships in the 'Faster than Light' game. If you have a fire or boarders open selected airlocks to suffocate them, and then close the locks and re-pressurise once they're gone.

The downsides are that you have to get your crew out of the area before they die and you can't enact repairs until the room is re-pressurised. If the boarder happens to be a robot, depressurising wont do anything. And if the boarders happen to be shooting up your life support system, do you depressurise and hope to fix it before the air runs out or send warm bodies to kill the intruders and hope enough warm bodies remain to use the air?

And if the boarders gain control of your airlock systems....
 
The firefighting article I mentioned did cover venting but also cautioned about the loss of atmosphere and/or time involved in pumping it out. I fully agree with the redundancy and training points.

As to the bridge to airlock direct line, I'm not so sure as it also involves a loss of atmosphere, not to mention that I prefer a few more barriers between the command space and entry points.

I guess it depends upon just how much of a reserve air supply is built into life support.
 
And as to the infamous "bounce them about with the artificial gravity" bit, just how fast do those A/G plates work and how specific is inertial dampening, is it by area or the whole ship in general?
MT required artificial gravity and inertial compensation to be installed for the entire ship. Presumably the effect is for the entire ship. Reversing gravity will do bad things to the ship, cargo, and crew...


Boarders and hijackers are likely to wear vacc suits?
 
MT required artificial gravity and inertial compensation to be installed for the entire ship. Presumably the effect is for the entire ship. Reversing gravity will do bad things to the ship, cargo, and crew...


Boarders and hijackers are likely to wear vacc suits?

Just because it is installed in the entire ship does not mean there are not local controls. On the other hand having it be shipwide would probably be technically cheaper and therefore more likely on the average merchant ship. :coffeesip:

Vacc suits if not worse. It's a real bad day when the Imperial Marines board. :devil:

Enoki, do you know of any fire suppression systems other than CO2 or HALON? And I would hope that beyond TL 9 a better suppressant would have been invented...
 
MT required artificial gravity and inertial compensation to be installed for the entire ship. Presumably the effect is for the entire ship. Reversing gravity will do bad things to the ship, cargo, and crew...

This was specified in an article about reducing the life support for selected areas to save power (e.g. trying not to have Artificial Gravity in the fuel tanks.

Nonetheless, ITTR another (also MT) article talking about using the gravity as anti-hijack tool by reversing and returning in the specific zone the hijackers were...
 
Well, there are dry chemicals that work, but they create a mess of their own, often worse than the fire itself.

I could see helium or argon being used as they're likely more accessible than on Earth. That would make them cost effective.

Maybe somebody invents a chemical that when released binds all the O2 in the space into some inert molecule rendering the space free of oxygen to supply the fire.

I could see other chemicals like HALON 1301 being invented. Both CO2 and HALON have the disadvantage that anyone in the space will have to abandon it unless they have a vac suit or other air supply source available. HALON gives you a bit more time to flee than CO2 but you can't stay.

Another possibility is a foam that extinguishes the fire by flooding the compartment and then when exposed to some special reagent it turns into something easily cleaned up.

In any case, if you have a fire the smoke and heat damage to stuff nearby is always a problem. You can spend a lot of time cleaning that mess up regardless of how the fire got put out.
 
Hmm, a foam that turns to a vacuumable powder (possibly itchy and annoying) when exposed to another agent of some sort? Still calls for evacuation I guess.
 
This was specified in an article about reducing the life support for selected areas to save power (e.g. trying not to have Artificial Gravity in the fuel tanks.

Nonetheless, ITTR another (also MT) article talking about using the gravity as anti-hijack tool by reversing and returning in the specific zone the hijackers were...

As for gravity plates and such...

What if the hijackers / pirates have grav belts or such on? An automatic sensing system on something like that counteracts whatever the crew is doing and renders that effort useless.

I could see turning off all power, lights, and gravity as a means to slow boarders down. If available, you might have the equivalent of the big wooden beam to make the hatch(s) inoperable forcing the invader to breech them by force.
A simple means in some parts of the ship like the engineering spaces would be to simply weld a strap across the hatch.

One item that I could see invented that might be used in a boarding as an improvised, but effective, means to slow or block boarders would be a rapidly expanding rigid foam material that requires the boarders to cut their way through it.
You know they're about to enter compartment X. As they do you throw this "foam bomb" into the space and it rapidly fills to 20 + times the volume of the "bomb" then hardens into a metallic-like substance like a giant, hard, Brillo pad. You hope you caught one or more of the boarders in the foam immobilizing them. They then have to cut this mess away to proceed.
 
As for gravity plates and such...

What if the hijackers / pirates have grav belts or such on? An automatic sensing system on something like that counteracts whatever the crew is doing and renders that effort useless.

I could see turning off all power, lights, and gravity as a means to slow boarders down. If available, you might have the equivalent of the big wooden beam to make the hatch(s) inoperable forcing the invader to breech them by force.
A simple means in some parts of the ship like the engineering spaces would be to simply weld a strap across the hatch.

One item that I could see invented that might be used in a boarding as an improvised, but effective, means to slow or block boarders would be a rapidly expanding rigid foam material that requires the boarders to cut their way through it.
You know they're about to enter compartment X. As they do you throw this "foam bomb" into the space and it rapidly fills to 20 + times the volume of the "bomb" then hardens into a metallic-like substance like a giant, hard, Brillo pad. You hope you caught one or more of the boarders in the foam immobilizing them. They then have to cut this mess away to proceed.

Actually given the non-violent method why not have tangler foam dispensers built in at strategic locations?
 
As for gravity plates and such...

What if the hijackers / pirates have grav belts or such on? An automatic sensing system on something like that counteracts whatever the crew is doing and renders that effort useless.

I figure one of the big reasons for the advent of battle dress is the need to be able to stand up and maintain an assault even under artificial grav defenses.
 
AFFF is actually interestingly caustic stuff... OSHA says you're not supposed to use it in spaces people might be...

Many firefighting chemicals are actually quite reactive... just not reactive in a way that results in maintaining fires.
 
Fires in a spaceship can cause the pressure to increase, causing the fire to spread faster. (Reaction rates increase at higher pressure, decrease at lower pressure.) In planetary structure firefighting we ventilate the fire by opening a high window or the roof to let out hot gasses thereby delaying the burning of the upper parts of the structure, giving the firefighters more time to apply the wet stuff to the red stuff.

Things are a bit different in a sealed compartment. you need to vent the compartment overboard in a controlled fashion, maintaining just enough pressure to support life. To do this you would have heat activated pressure relief valves in each compartment venting overboard through insulated pipes. Your firefighting venting system is separate from the normal air handling equipment and includes features such as a master shutoff valve, active and passive thermal dissipation systems to keep the pipes from melting.
 
Ships have bulkheads and watertight doors.

Unless these have been punctured, it should be possible to isolate a fire onboard a spaceship.
 
Ships have bulkheads and watertight doors.

Unless these have been punctured, it should be possible to isolate a fire onboard a spaceship.

More than one wen navy ship has had fire spread compartment to compartment via conductive heating. If A is 2000°, and B has stuff that lights at 500°, B can cook off without ever breaching the walls which melt at 4500°...

Sr. Capt. Jon Anderson of Anchorage Fire Department said in the late 80's that, when he was an NYFD Engineer (in the 70s), he saw mostly empty fuel tanks cook off without having breached first...

Inspector Patterson (AFD) once commented that a particularly bad housefire cooked off a water heater... the fire was intense enough that the relief valve was insufficient, and BOOM!

Don't rely on bulkheads to prevent fires. The right combination of pressure, heat, fuel, and oxidizer can ignite without physical fire-to-fire contact.

And tank ruptures from overpressure are axiomatically no prior breach.
 
Ships have bulkheads and watertight doors.

Unless these have been punctured, it should be possible to isolate a fire onboard a spaceship.

They're going to be "punctured." They will have wiring and piping running through them to other spaces. The ventilation system can't be limited to just one compartment at a time. To keep pressure throughout the ship equal, you'll need the ventilation to access multiple spaces at a time.

I also mentioned how heat conducts across bulkheads and decks. That will be the case here. The USS Maine, among other ships, blew up from a coal fire that cooked off ammunition in an adjacent magazine for example.

The longer the ship is in service the more likely the bulkheads won't be air tight too. The crew will make modifications over time that aren't up to "code." The fittings and such will become less than air tight because of vibration, movement of stuff like wiring (that's flexible), and such. Maintenance won't be 100%. It never is.

The danger would be things like fuel tanks and other compartments / tanks that are not part of the habitable portion of the ship. These would have limited or no access and could present a real explosion danger if exposed to the heat of a fire.

Things are a bit different in a sealed compartment. you need to vent the compartment overboard in a controlled fashion, maintaining just enough pressure to support life. To do this you would have heat activated pressure relief valves in each compartment venting overboard through insulated pipes. Your firefighting venting system is separate from the normal air handling equipment and includes features such as a master shutoff valve, active and passive thermal dissipation systems to keep the pipes from melting.

Having each compartment vented over the side, so to speak, is unrealistic particularly on larger ships. There could be hundreds, even thousands, of compartments on a large vessel. Having a system of piping that can vent any single compartment to space would be a very complex one that had the very real risk of a valve failing and some compartment venting when you didn't want it too. Just keeping the system from leaking would be a challenge. Such a system would be an unnecessary nightmare.
For example, you receive damage in one part of the ship or a fire in one compartment. The piping for other compartments runs through that one and somehow gets punctured. Now you have compartments venting to space that shouldn't be. Making repairs afterwards would be complicated by this system too.

Given the already necessary mass of wiring and piping that a ship would have to have, adding more that goes unused 99.8% of the time seems nothing but a waste. The same can be said for a ship-wide automatic fire suppression system. While sprinklers are relatively cheap and reliable, you don't have a water source on a starship that you can use to run such a system. Again, the possibility of a fire in most compartments is so low that you can discount it. The most important and ones that have high risk might have a suppression system fitted. That would be a cost effective trade off.

I'd also think that it'd be easier and better in combat for a spaceship to just seal up all the compartments and bulkheads leaving the atmosphere in place but not being refreshed or connected to other compartments as trying to remove all the "air" and store it somewhere would take considerable time to accomplish and would require considerable storage volume somewhere. The alternative would be to vent "over the side" and then have the problem of replacing the entire ship's atmosphere later.
 
Why do we need heat conduits? Everyone says that we'll fry due to our accumulated body heat.

Air (conditioning), water, fibre optics, and the mains.
 
Just the basic complexity of the ship's systems would have wiring and piping running everywhere.

Ventilation (heating, cooling, and air supply)
Electrical (wiring, fiber optics, and anything else to be invented)
Control systems and sensors
Hydraulic systems
Pneumatic systems
Septic sewage
Water supply (hot, cold, and for other uses)
Other gasses (to pressurize systems, or supply these for special needs)
Fuel
Lubrication (of machinery may be done using a centralized system)

That's just a partial list of "stuff" running throughout a ship. Even small ships like a Far or Free Trader or a scout would be full of this stuff. Look at how complex aircraft have become. Starships aren't going to be any simpler.
 
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