Piracy: A primer

[Hal]

The problem with piracy in the Traveller big-ship universe is it's easy to stop.

You can't stop what you can't see right? That means, that sensors are the key to everything here.

Having a Dreadnaught present in a star system doesn't mean a thing if the pirates hit before the dreadnaught can even respond. If the nearest sensor can't pick information up in time, no one can respond to the issue in time.

Ever play the game where one person has their hands palms up, and the other has his palms resting atop the first player's? He's watching what the first player is about to do. He's ready to JUMP. But if the first player can slap the second player's hand before he can get it out of the way, the first player continues to remain in the position to slap hands. If he fails to slap the hand before it gets away, his hands become the top hands, and player two gets to do the slapping.

Same here. If a pirate can pop up suddenly, from the ground on an intercept course with his prey, reach his prey before it can jump at the 100 diameter point, and do this before the navy or defense force can get within weapon range - great. The SAME logic applying to the prey trying to escape at the 100 diameter limit applies to the pirate leaving at the 100 diameter limit.

So, does piracy happen at the super busy space approaches around worlds where ships are leaving every minute and arriving every minute, and the navy sticks around or the planetary navy has its nose in everyone's business right up to the jump point? Probably not. This is why CT didn't have piracy at A starports right? But note how piracy starts to occur at the lesser starport locations in the original LBB series.

Can a pirate facing only say, a single Type-T cruiser, which is based on the surface of the main world, intercept a 1G freighter near the 100 diameter limit (but not past it) in time before the Cruiser can leave?

Try it yourself.

Use a sheet of paper and use vector movement rules for a 1G freighter (like the Beowolf) lifting from a diameter 8 world. Then wait for a 4G ship to chase after the freighter (Due to your assurances that piracy can't exist, this particular freighter isn't armed *snicker*).

Then, assume that the Type T Patrol cruiser can't start to chase the 4G Pirate until the following occurs:

1) Ground Control (if any exist) has to determine that the second ship is on an intercept course with the first ship. Or perhaps the crew of the prey is on the ball and is tracking the fast inbound saying "Whoa dude, you're cutting it too close to us, back the hell off!".

2) After failed attempts to warn off the pursuing pirate, the crew aboard the Type-T is given warning orders to assemble at the ship and prep for take off. How long will THAT take? If you say no more than one turn (20 minutes), I'm going to laugh at you. Few naval vessels are prepared to get underway in under 20 minutes. So, let's be nice and call it an hour just to be fun. That's THREE turns before the Type T patrol cruiser can get into the air, let alone start the long chase and get within weapon's range right?

3) you do the math, the plotting and everything else. WHERE is the sweet point that the faster pursuer can catch up with the prey, fire a warning shot across the bow saying "Stop acceleration or we'll blast you to kingdom come". Then how long to match velocity (ie decelerate to match up with the freighter) then grapple, then empty their cargo bay into your own, take prisoners for ransom, and cut grapples?

All this presumes that the Navy pursuit can't get within long distance firing range. Now, if you have two ships grappled together - how hard would it be to roll the prey over so that its hull is between you and the direction the navy ship has to come from? Can the Navy ship fire without hitting the prey ship?

WORK it out using the rules of what ever game system you like to use. Then get back to us with a report on how it went. Then say "hey Hal, you're wrong, this is what happened. These are the rules I used, die rolls made (if using NPC's as Player characters) and then say what happened in your mini-scenario.

It would be interesting to see. I've done it for GURPS and it can be done against a sloppy inattentive civilian environment. It can be done even with a moderately alert captain. NO pirate is going to strike when the circumstances are against his success. If he has to, he will use a fast G craft coming in at a high velocity from the other side of the planet to make that "fire across the bow" event.

It only takes ONE successful hit against a merchant captain on a mortgage based run, to ruin him. Repairs that cost money are bad enough, but the time spent beached is going to hurt his pocket even worse. If he cuts and runs (ie jumps within a 100 diameter limit), who is going to feel safe about riding aboard his craft as a passenger ever again? What if the hit that damages the ship was against passengers? What will the board of inquiry say when it asks "Why didn't you just stop, and try to delay the pirate knowing that most pirates, when they shoot across the bow, spare their prisoners for complying with their demands?"

Now, a pirate whose reputation is that he KILLS his prey no matter what, is another story for another day

In any event, when trying to handle "Can piracy exist or not" one needs to TRY it from the pirate's perspective to see if he can make it work even ONCE. If the answer is yes, then ask yourself "what else does the pirate need to make things work?

As noted, even something as simple as a forged document that says these goods are speculative cargo, and sold as speculative cargo can be only TOO profitable. Laundering the goods through a criminal cartel is another way to dispose of the goods. Again, a forged document that gets the goods past the customs inspector or the warehouse bonding agent, and is later picked up illegally by the crime syndicate - is money in the pirate's pockets.

Want to know the one glaring weakness that pirates have in the long run? Information. They want to know who has what and when so they can get the good stuff. Once that starts to happen, the Anti-piracy agencies involved (ONI being one of them) will spot the pattern and try to determine who is the source of the leaked information. Then they look to see who is getting the information and follow him back. Then they try to roll up the organization after they infiltrate it.

There's old pirates, and Bold pirates - just no Old Bold pirates

 

[aramis]

Sp, this is a thread on Piracy: A primer. How does Piracy work in your Universe? How do they attack ships and get away before they're nailed to the barn door by the Imperial Navy?

It is one thing to calculate how much money/revenue that the pirates can take if they successfully abscond with a hull they've captured. It is another thing to actively take a ship, get past the override codes, the fail-safes, etc - and get away.

So, give us the details

IMTU: Rarely, and by bribery of officials...
Privateering, however - Not all "Pirates" are local. Some are foreign. As in, from outside the Imperium. Set up a deep space base of operations (typically, a cruiser) with tanker support from smaller tankers (like the AHL's fuel shuttles, only equipped with J1), and find a hunk of comet within J1 to carve up and put into them...

Commerce raiding isn't as much about the prize as it is about disruption of trade.

 

[whartung]

The scenario I'm setting up, involves a world with a class E starport, and is a pop 4 world engaged in mining and the like. At TL 8 or so, the world isn't deemed to be a major important world.

Any pirates who hit a surface area, will be looking to steal portable wealth in the form of mining equipment, money at the local banks, as well as commodities and even freight awaiting shipment. But for the planet pirates to be successful, they have to be sure that they won't get hit by any counter-attack from either of space, or the planet side. Having a ship hanging over a ground position and being the unlucky recipients of shipboard lasers used in ground support mode, is likely going to be more than the ground based defenders can handle.

As with anything, thus comes the question whether the risk is worth the reward. Fundamentally, in Traveller, especially for merchants, a typical cargo is not worth the cost to repair most any damage sustained by space combat. A healthy ship, with mortgage and crew and running expenses, is barely a break even proposition. The net profit per month is in the 10,000's of credits, if that. A million Cr repair bill throws the enterprise completely out of whack.

Many a man will risk their life, but few will risk their livelihood. Even pirates have expenses, and starships are VERY expensive.

Are four turrets aboard TWO 200 dTon hulls sufficient to equal one Type-T patrol cruiser? What about 2 Beowulf class ships and two Pinnace craft? How about 6 100 dton armed scout ships?

If the fight is going badly for the Type-T patrol cruiser, is its 4G acceleration advantage sufficient to keep it alive?

Under your rules of engagement, the Patrol cruiser(s) are at a distinct disadvantage if the pirates are allowed to close within optimum range and get the first shot.

Because Traveller simplifies a lot of things, certain "tactics" work well in a non-static environment, that won't be true if planets are in motion.

Tactically, planets don't move fast enough to matter. Strategically, they'll be where you want them to be when you get there. Always easy to know where a planet is going to be. You do need to plot around them, you don't want to get too close to Jupiter, for example.

Could I write an App that does that? Easily enough. Could I write it such that a intervening body will require a course change? Sure. I've never been able to find out just how close to any stellar object a ship can approach before it is damaged or destroyed, but give me that parameter, and I can write a simple app that does just that.

It's actually a pretty difficult dynamic problem. As you said, all of the pieces on the board are moving, and routing around a large object, like a gas giant, needs to be done with care.

But that's the problem. You can't have a pirate sit in a position to wait, if his ship has to trail after a moving planet. You can't have a navy ship sit halfway between the main world and the nearest gas giant. Why? Because the half way point shifts with time, not only for ships moving at 1G, but for ships moving FASTER than 1G because the turn over point to start deceleration will be different for every single ship regardless of what time it left the main world.

Sitting in deep space is mostly pointless. Anything trying to get from Point A to Point B will be accelerating past the mid point quite rapidly. interception happens where ships stop, and they have no reason to stop in deep space.

So, there shouldn't be ANY reason for a ship to travel normal space right? It should never really be that much further from the 100 diameter limit right? What about worlds whose hydrographic value is 4 or less? In GURPS TRAVELLER, such worlds can outlaw the use of water being used as wilderness fuel or even for fuel at the starport (refined or unrefined). That requires then, that the fuel be shipped in from the nearest gas giant, or it requires that all commercial traffic go to the gas giant to refuel before it can leave the system.

These are factors that can make the world uninviting to merchants. Again, it has to make economic sense for them to show up in the first place. If you're going to force them to travel to a gas giant through pirate infested asteroid belts just to refuel, then you better be paying them a LOT of money or they'll simply not show up.

Then there's the newer incarnation of Jump Shadow and Jump masking - which in turn increases the travel time through jump space (although it was recognized early on, that a star's 100 diameter limit also inhibited the jump of a ship as well - and even SCOUTS could at that time, be used to determine information if someone were to research what the believed diameter of the sun was back in the early to late 1980's).

Taking in account shadowing and masking, it's easy for ships to have to route around the main star of the system in order to get to another system. This affect would happen seasonally. Since the relationship between star systems is essentially static, you can see how if you have one system that's "east" of another, that anytime the planet in the first system is west of the star, they'd have to maneuver around the star to get past the jump issues, but only for a portion of the year.

Combine the risk of a long flight in deep space, you can also see how during some seasons, merchants will simply not show up unless their safety is more or less assured (through convoys, better patrols, etc. etc.). You can see prices going up during those times of year. Or ships routing through different star system to avoid the masking.

Remember, in the Age of Sail, ships, while expensive, were cheaper than their cargos. I forget the actual anecdote, but the story was something like a fleet of 5 ships went off to the far east, ran in to a whole lot of trouble (not necessarily pirates, mind), lost almost the entire mission, returning with just one ship, yet, even after all the time and losses, the sponsors made a tidy profit. They lost 4 of the 5 ships and 90% of the total crew.

So the risks warranted the rewards. In Traveller, it's the opposite. The ships are the prizes, not the cargos.

Vector Math can not be done in Polar Vectors. Polar Vectors are PERFECT for describing the following:

Built up Velocity of a SHIP.

Vectors are easy, they're represented rectangularly as deltaX and deltaY. You represent them as unit vectors, and multiply by time later.

This is a simple Vector class:

public class Vector {

    double dx;
    double dy;

    public Vector(double dx, double dy) {
        this.dx = dx;
        this.dy = dy;
    }

    public Vector(Vector v) {
        dx = v.dx;
        dy = v.dy;
    }

    public void add(Vector v) {
        dx = dx + v.dx;
        dy = dy + v.dy;
    }

    public void subtract(Vector v) {
        dx = dx - v.dx;
        dy = dy - v.dy;
    }

    public void divide(double scalar) {
        dx = dx / scalar;
        dy = dy / scalar;
    }

    public void multiply(double scalar) {
        dx = dx * scalar;
        dy = dy * scalar;
    }

    public double getMagnitude() {
        return Math.sqrt(Math.abs(dx * dx + dy * dy));
    }

    public void negate() {
        dx = -dx;
        dy = -dy;
    }
}

This is a simple example of generating a Gravity vector. You can see the conversion from rectangular to polar and then back again.

    public final static double G = 6.67259e-11;

    public static Vector gravityVector(Shape s1, Shape s2, double seconds) {
        double dx = s2.getX() - s1.getX();
        double dy = s2.getY() - s1.getY();
        double theta = Math.atan2(dy, dx);
        double r = Math.sqrt(dx * dx + dy * dy);
        double gforce = (G * s2.getMass()) / (r * r);
        Vector result = new Vector((gforce * seconds) * Math.cos(theta), (gforce * seconds) * Math.sin(theta));
        return result;
    }

Here you can see how the gravity is being applied in different scenarios. In this case to affect the orbits of the Earth and Jupiter around the Sun, and how all three affect the ship. There's two things going on here. The gravity vector gives you the vector of applying gravity over a specific amount of time (longer the time, longer the vector). We take, for example, the Earths current vector, add in the gravity vector, then we take the net result vector, and "move" the earth. This is a crude simulation. Over time it will add in LOTS of error. There are more sophisticated techniques to do this better. The smaller the amount of seconds, the slower the error adds in to the system.

You can see for the ship, we get the 3 vectors from the 3 bodies, and simply add them all together to get the net resulting vector against the ship.

        Vector dv = Mechanics.gravityVector(earth, sun, seconds);
        Vector ev = earth.getV();
        ev.add(dv);
        earth.setX(earth.getX() + ev.getDx() * seconds);
        earth.setY(earth.getY() + ev.getDy() * seconds);
        earth.setV(ev);

        dv = Mechanics.gravityVector(jupiter, sun, seconds);
        ev = jupiter.getV();
        ev.add(dv);
        jupiter.setX(jupiter.getX() + ev.getDx() * seconds);
        jupiter.setY(jupiter.getY() + ev.getDy() * seconds);
        jupiter.setV(ev);

        dv = Mechanics.gravityVector(ship, sun, seconds);
        dv.add(Mechanics.gravityVector(ship, earth, seconds));
        dv.add(Mechanics.gravityVector(ship, jupiter, seconds));

I worked on what you're talking about, I was able to get the ship in to a parking orbit around the destination. 1G drive, total run time, 381 hrs.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5y4d1ino6vkbf1/orbit.mov?dl=0

 

[Hal]

In response to whartung...

What I find interesting is this...

If Piracy is so unlikely, then who will be armed to damage the pirate hull? Its a catch 22 proposition.

Either the prey is armed, and can potentially damage the pirate, or the prey is unarmed, and only the armed pirate has the say over who gets damaged in the immediate near future.

The catch here is - that they have near future monopoly on violence, and if they're smart, they get in, out and WAY out (ie Jump) before they can be shot at by arriving defenders.

What is in the ship's hold? From memory of past CT games back in the 1980's? We as player characters, once had a cargo of I believe, 2 dtons of gems worth 1 MCr each. We had purchased them at 40% and were really looking forward to selling them on a rich world. We got hit by pirates as well. The pirates won by the way, because our one turret was taken out quickly and we were largely sitting ducks.

In any event. The idea of creating the scenario and its rules of engagement is to give people a chance to see what is or isn't possible. Get off your duffs (to any who read this now or in the future) and TRY the scenario out. As soon as I can get information on how far away radio communications can be heard in CT, or how far ships can be sensed via ship's sensors - I'll try to include that information in the scenario.

Until then... (I really should have gone to bed 90 minutes ago!)

 

[Hal]

why would it be any larger than engagement range?

just for comparison
in-system hex map
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=2102

because space is a vast area. The ability to be somewhere the sensors are not is part of the so called engagement range. The one advantage that both sides enjoy is the fact that neither side is entirely certain where the other side's ships are, where they're going to be, etc.

For years, YEARS I tell you, Traveller has been plagued by "can't happen, never will" to "It is possible" with neither side actively gaming the situation out.

Some don't bother to figure out that the "static" station keeping is an artificial aspect of the game largely because ships in a universe that is always moving, have to move too.

There are times in which piracy can happen without it having to hit a massive starship or its cargo or what have you. Stealing a multi-million in-system boat whose only task is to ferry fuel gotten from a gas giant to the main world - can be worth sufficient number of millions, that the pirates steal THAT boat.

Traveller hints at intrasystem boats - but we never see them. Why? Traveller hints at piracy, but no one wants to build the structure required to play the game at both a tactical level and a strategic level. System wide travel and playing hide and seek with sensor systems over vast distance, make the game somewhat different than a simple "100 diameters" game.

hell, even the material in SECTOR FLEET hints at something that can and will interest the Imperial Naval fleets... Smuggling.

THAT will usually take place in a manner where the smuggler wants to jump into a system, and avoid notice. He might want to hit any one of the multiple gas giants, refuel, and jump away, all without the main world starport taking notice of him. Pirates want the same thing as well.

THAT is why the large playing area. Anything less than that is like telling a matador he has to fight a bull, but stay inside an area marked off in blue tape that measure 3 feet by 3 feet. Or, if you've ever watched the movie DOWN PERISCOPE with Kelsie Grammar and Lauren Holley - where the wargame area was broken in half so as to give the advantage to the defenders.

 

[Carlobrand]

because space is a vast area.

Space is vast. The area of consequence is not. Pirates can only flourish if they go where the traffic is, which typically means within the 100-diameter range of inhabited planets or significant fuel stops, or near enough that their own sensors can detect targets and they can react. There's no value in hiding around some random asteroid or comet hoping a ship will pass by.

Space as a hiding place for fugitives? Yes, it is vast, provided you have a source for food and maintenance, because fuel is everywhere if you have the right equipment and are willing to do some work. Space as a hiding place for someone who has to prey on other ships for income? Not so much. It's like wolves expecting to prey on sheep in Antarctica - the prey just isn't there.

 

[RandyB]

Here's a link that was posted to an earlier piracy thread.

http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/pirate_economics.htm

It's pretty exhaustive. Some of the discussion so far in this thread is addressed, along with quite a lot else.

 

[Hal]

Space is vast. The area of consequence is not. Pirates can only flourish if they go where the traffic is, which typically means within the 100-diameter range of inhabited planets or significant fuel stops, or near enough that their own sensors can detect targets and they can react. There's no value in hiding around some random asteroid or comet hoping a ship will pass by.

Space as a hiding place for fugitives? Yes, it is vast, provided you have a source for food and maintenance, because fuel is everywhere if you have the right equipment and are willing to do some work. Space as a hiding place for someone who has to prey on other ships for income? Not so much. It's like wolves expecting to prey on sheep in Antarctica - the prey just isn't there.

The original premise that I pointed out, where you have a 1G freighter heading out for a Jump Point, and then having a 4G pirate take off as well - seems to be discarded as a potential scenario. It almost seems like an article of faith, that it is not possible, so no one bothers to check the math ect.

Per the original rules in Traveller, the usual process is to accelerate to the jump point and reach it with a relative velocity of zero. The formula given page 10 of LBB:STARSHIPS states that the time to travel is equal to:

2*(D/A)^.5

Diameter of Earth is listed as being 12,756 Kilometers. This becomes 12.756 million meters. Multiply this by 100 for the 100 diameter limit, and our ships have to travel a touch over 1,275,600,000 meters. 1G acceleration is 9.8 meters. Filling in the numbers using THAT equation, and we have the following information on time:

Time to reach Jump Diameter limit for Earth at 1 G is 22817.82 seconds, or 6.33823 hours or 19.01385 combat turns (20 minute turns)

Time to reach Jump Diameter limit for earth at 4 G is 11408 seconds, or 3.168889 hours or 9.506667 combat turns.

ADDENDA I FORGOT TO MENTION: Note that to reach about the same location, requires that the 4G ship leave within 9 combat turns. That's plenty of time to give the Pirate time to let the other craft get to where the pirate intends to hit the prey just short of the 100 diameter limit. All that remains then, is how much time it takes for the defenders to realize what is going on and begin their pursuit of the Pirate.
But wait! I hear someone saying "that is just a convention, what if they just do constant acceleration and then jump? Glad you asked that. S = 1/2 A * T^2 where S is displacement. The actual formula has more, but if the object is deemed to be at rest at the start of the whole trip, then the other part of the formula equals zero.

So solving for T in that equation, the formula becomes T = (2S/A)^.5

Constant Acceleration times to reach the 100 planetary Diameter becomes:

16134.64 seconds at 1 G (4.48 hours or 13.45 combat turns)
8067.32 seconds at 4G (2.24 hours or 6.72 combat turns)

Now, the conjecture becomes one of "Where are the pursuit craft that will stop this?" At starports that are E or D class, the only real options are those ships that are based at the down port, or in geosynchronous orbits. Ships leaving earth as it rotates will not be in geosynchronous orbits and as they pull away from the ground into space, the ships in orbit above the base will of necessity, be drifting further and further away (relative to the path taken by ships leaving for the jump point).

So - how many turns on a pursuit vector will it take before ground control realizes that the second ship is aiming to intercept the first? How many turns will it take before the pursuit craft (In this example, a Type-T patrol cruiser) can go from a relaxed state to battle stations and engage in a pursuit. If they're on the ground, being able to leave within 2 combat turns is likely pushing it. So call it what, maybe five to six combat turns before any meaningful reaction occurs?

So, what's missing from the equation? How long does it take to load or unload a cargo bay? How long does it take to march prisoners off a ship and hold them for ransom? How much ransom can a pirate get for his prisoners?

If a pirate is bold enough to take on an actual warship (and win?) that is probably going to be the proverbial stick that stirs a hornet's nest. That will likely not only get every ship from the subsector navy involved, but every naval asset the Imperial navy has as well. Those pirates are going to have to find a new location to hit.

 

[mike wightman]

Soon as traffic control sees the 4g ship burning at 4g on a course towards a ship also in flight I would scramble a squadron of 6g fighters, or send a lightspeed message to the patrolcraft at the 100D limit to intercept the 4g craft - for inspection purposes only of course

 

[aramis]

Soon as traffic control sees the 4g ship burning at 4g on a course towards a ship also in flight I would scramble a squadron of 6g fighters, or send a lightspeed message to the patrolcraft at the 100D limit to intercept the 4g craft - for inspection purposes only of course

Unless someone at syscon is paid off...

There's also the issue of needing to be 0-relative to the freighter during intercept.
Makes the math a headache.

 

[Carlobrand]

... Stealing a multi-million in-system boat whose only task is to ferry fuel gotten from a gas giant to the main world - can be worth sufficient number of millions, that the pirates steal THAT boat.

Traveller hints at intrasystem boats - but we never see them. Why? Traveller hints at piracy, but no one wants to build the structure required to play the game at both a tactical level and a strategic level. System wide travel and playing hide and seek with sensor systems over vast distance, make the game somewhat different than a simple "100 diameters" game.

Let's examine that. Where is the boat going to be? At one point where there are people or a job to do, at another point where there are people or a job to do, or traveling between the two points.

What do you have to do if you want to attack it? You go to one or the other known points where there are people or where they go to do a job, and you attack it there. Or, in the case of intrasystem boats, you find out when the boat is leaving, where it is going, and what acceleration it will use so you can plot an intercept. You can't even just hang out in the middle someplace on a line between A and B because that line moves as the bodies move, and because that ship is gonna be going hella fast on its acceleration or deceleration leg when it reaches the spot where you're hanging out. You need to have that departure time, destination and acceleration before you can plan where and how to intercept them.

Not a vastness of space scenario. You are constrained to go where there is some reason for humans or their machines to be, or to go along their trails between those places. Moreover, it is very helpful to have someone positioned to get you that information you need, or you're gonna look mighty suspicious hanging about the docks doing nothing and then suddenly departing when their boat departs.

Age of Sail had a similar environment. The oceans are vast - but there are only so many routes that a Spanish galleon can travel to take the gold from Mexico to Spain, so most of that vastness is utterly irrelevant.

But this is worse. Age of Sail constrained ships by their mode of travel: gotta go with the winds and currents, or you're consuming food and water that you don't have enough of - and that is gradually spoiling each day you're at sea - while trying to go some circuitous route to avoid trouble. Far Future, the craft carries lots of stores, recycles water, and has emergency rations if they accidentally run out of food. If piracy is a known issue, the boat randomizes its flight plan and takes a bit longer to get where it's going, and you just aren't going to find it out there with the sensors they're giving us.

Then too, to get the value of the boat, you have to transport it somewhere that you can convert it to cash. Usually means a jump, which usually means it has to be small enough for you to take it aboard. If a main world is needing to ferry fuel from gas giants, it isn't using little cutters to do it, not unless that's an absurdly small population. Your corsair does not want to cross swords with an armed 1000 dT freighter serving a decent-sized main world. And, hey, absurdly small populations know they're a target and will try to have some sort of plan for defense, if nothing more than a couple of little 10-ton fighters.

Quick math: at 18 MCr each, and the standard rate, a colony would have to pay 7.2 MCr up front and then MCr 0.15 a month thereafter, figure MCr 1.8 per year for a pair. Depends on the pop size as to whether that's within their tax base or not. Probably affordable for a pop of 1000 or more. Setting up a planetary defense battery consisting of sensors and one or two triple missile batteries would cost a few million:assuming the same loan rate, a pop of a couple hundred should at least be able to buy systems that would defend their orbital space.

Here's the thing: people haven't been saying, "can't happen" because they want to spoil your fun. They're saying it because they can't for the life of them figure out any way to do it except the classical ways we've already discussed: bribery, patrons, organized crime, maybe some opportunistic idiot who gambles and gets lucky a few times until they catch him, maybe some impoverished little world orders some goods so they can stage a "piracy" and then enrich themselves with a bit of salvage. People would be absolutely delighted to have someone show up and show them a new way that would actually work, because piracy is actually quite a nifty dramatic element to throw into the mix. If you have any new ideas that will actually work, we'd love them.

 

[Hal]

In either case - based on the numbers above, the lead time that the pirate gives its prey to reach NEAR jump diameter limit is either going to be about 8 combat turns using the "zero relative velocity at the jump limit" or about 6 turns at the constant acceleration method where the built up velocity is retained at the jump entry point.

If using the Classic Traveller approach to things, where zero relative velocity is the intended goal upon reaching the jump point - hitting a pirate before he can hit the 100 diameter limit works out well for matching vector's aspect.

To my knowledge, CT never detailed the time it takes to unload a given volume of cargo/freight. GURPS FAR TRADER does detail this to some extent, giving the time based upon how the freight/cargo is packaged (roll on roll off vs standardized containers vs breakbulk etc). Hooking up a pressurized tube between ships takes about 1 turn (GURPS says 30 minutes). Transfer rates between the ship get reduced to 1/3rd the normal rate. Based on that (and the fact the cargo/freight is likely in containers), it would be about 60 dTons per hour, or 20 dTons per combat turn. At four dTons volume per container, that breaks down to roughly one container per four minutes.

Do the math and decide if it is possible for a pirate to make money at the process.

Ultimately, GM's who want to make an informed decision about their Traveller Universe, have to have certain assumptions that they make. What are the merchants like? Just because "adventure class ships" exist doesn't mean that all freighter captains or freighter owners are going to arm their ships.

Here's a thought to process. If you were to go the route of financing your freighter, what is the best way to get the least costly freighter for the most earning potential?

If you assume that you have a pure freighter, with only enough staterooms for your crew - then all of your cargo carrying capacity have an earning potential of 1,000 credits per ton per jump. There are no "Life support costs associated with the cargo bay.

Now, balance that against a stateroom. It takes up 4 dTons of your cargo capacity. You need to earn at least 4,000 credits per stateroom per jump, or you're automatically losing the potential income you could have had for the stateroom. Toss in the fact that you automatically lose 2,000 credits per jump for life support, and you now need to make at least 6,000 credits per stateroom per jump. But wait, there's more to your calculation! If you're going to take passengers, you need a steward, and he gets one stateroom. That's another 4,000 credits that are lost. Toss in his life support needs, and that's another 6,000 credits lost. Toss in half his monthly pay, and total loss of income is 1,500 credits per jump. Total cost to be spread around for all of the other passenger based staterooms is 7,500 credits. On a Beowulf class ship, that works out to spreading the cost over potentially 6 staterooms - because the crew require 4, and passengers can fill up to the remaining 6 staterooms. So, just to break even with a passenger stateroom's earning potential versus a cargo space earning potential, the stateroom has to generate at least 6,000 credits plus the 1250 from the steward's expense. That's 7250 credits just to break even with standard cargo income potential. Fortunately, mid passage passes this, and high passage exceeds that by a comfortable margin. Question is - can the ship get those passengers.

Now, add in but a single gunner to the equation.

The gunner takes a stateroom, and his pay per jump is 500 credits. Total cost to revenue income is his 4,000 credits plus his life support, plus his pay, or 6,500 Originally, we divided the Steward's cost by 6 because he had 6 potential staterooms - with a gunner, his cost is divided by 5. Likewise, the gunner's cost is divided by 5. So now, we need 6500/5 plus 7500/5 added to the stateroom revenue and we get...14,000/5 (combined expenses) or 2,800 lost revenue per stateroom. That takes it to requiring 8,800 credits minimum per stateroom to offset the cost of the Steward and the gunner. Now we're LOSING 800 credits per middle passenger, and making only 1200 profit per high passenger. That's per jump, not including lost revenue per stateroom that remains empty.

Next post... The difference in mortgage costs for a ship with and without turrets/weapons.

 

[Hal]

If you have any new ideas that will actually work, we'd love them.

Mind you, this is a "IMTU" situation, but bear with me...

GURPS TRAVELLER makes its drives Mass based instead of volume based. In other words, the G rating is based on the thrust of the drives versus the mass of the hull being propelled. That changes a few things.

Secondly, there was a throw away line in the material published by GURPS, that indicated that some worlds, typically water hydrographic value 4 or less, would outlaw water use as fuel. This meant then, that if the world has a Gas Giant, that's the source for fuel. Then I looked at Ianic in the Lunion subsector, and started to look at the situation a bit more closely. Using the FAR TRADER rules for determining trade with nearby worlds, and deriving which worlds would have sufficient trade for traders to show up and leave with freight to return back - I found that Ianic's starport wasn't even sufficient to handle the traffic properly. As a consequence, I looked at what was required to turn Ianic's star port from its current E classification, to a D classification, and found that it required that unrefined fuel be made available to the port. The problem here was this...

If water can't be used for fuel, unrefined fuel could only be had if one imports it - or one mines the nearest gas giant for it. So I did just that. I created some "boats" that would grab a sufficient amount of fuel, upped their G rating to 3G's to facilitate faster travel per week, and then did a cost analysis for the whole thing. I included the gas tanks for storage near the "port", the personnel required to run the whole thing, the cost to get the equipment such as fuel pumps, vehicles to transport the fuel to the ships to refuel, etc. There was no way the whole operation could be profitable selling unrefined fuel. Then I noted that if you included a purification plant in the boats - the time it took to reach the main world was more than sufficient for the ships to act as moving refineries and provide "refined fuel". The Ianica Refueling Corporation was thus born, its ships financed by means of an Initial Stock offering on Lunion, and the operation was set in motion. One ship would be out of commission for crew handled yearly maintenance (taking 8 weeks to complete by GURPS rules). The cost to move a "gas mining station" required that it have a Jump 1 engine and minimal trust maneuver drives for station keeping purposes. The "boats" had to be a given size or smaller so that the jump shuttles used to transport System Defense boats could be used to transport the "oilers".

All this detail because I had time on my hands, and a curiosity to see how it might affect things. Those OILERS have a schedule to keep, and they have a known acceleration capability. In other words, they're predictable. In addition - pirates could if they wished, turn those into weapons platforms by retrofitting them after the fact. But that takes time and money and... a special purpose moving "shipyard" type facility (and yes, I built that too for the pirates as a cost analysis thing).

Long story short is this...

If ships are forbidden to use wilderness refueling on an desert world and the only fuel is provided by the Ianic Refueling corporations. All it would take is for the pirates to hit an oiler (destroying it, not taking it as a prize) and suddenly, 25% of the required fuel the system needed, would be lost, and the production facility would lose 25% of its functionality, driving into being, a fuel shortage. Some freighters, rather than wait for the fuel shortage to be rectified - would instead, go to the gas giant themselves.

This would be an "opportunity" in the eyes of the pirates because Ianic is a midway point between trade from Adibicci and Lunion. It would bottleneck the freighters for a short time, and would make some take the risk of normal space travel. It would take a few weeks for the naval authorities to take note of the changed circumstances, and dispatch any response to the system.

Now enter the "criminal syndicate" on Lunion (Adibicci's high law rating made the syndicat's existence more profitable, but also more dangerous). Some of the criminals there were approached and a plan hatched. It involved the corruption of an Imperial Navy supply officer to misplace the location of a Heavy Laser cannon (illegal and VERY difficult for civilans to get their hands upon). He took the bait, and was forced into a compromising situation where he had to either misplace the cannon the syndicate wanted, or be exposed and court marshaled. He of course chose the former. Net result, when the command changed and a stickler for regulations engaged in an inventory before being willing to sign off on the ownership of the responsibilities of his post, the supply officer was exposed, and the Navy alerted to the fact that one naval cannon and supply parts were missing.

Said naval cannon was later found hooked up to a Pinnace, an d used for piracy in the Ianic subsystem. As a surprise, it was VERY effective (in GURPS, Heavy Lasers are a touch more accurate than Turret lasers, and their half damage range is 30,000 miles instead of 20,000 miles. Their max range is 90,000 miles instead of 50,000 miles)

To put this in perspective? Heavy Laser Cannons in my Traveller universe, are typically found on DESTROYER class warships and up...

In any case, the piracy was such that the Syndicate was funneling the stolen goods through their own networks on Lunion - forgeries getting the stuff past honest officials, and bribes getting it past corrupted officials. Sold on the speculative market, the goods were rather profitable.

Mind you, that's for a GURPS TRAVELLER universe, not a stock standard CT universe.

For other GM's - either it is a given that piracy can't happen, and turreted weapons on starships are not going to happen, or piracy can technically be achieved, and the pirates have to steal their ships (for low investment cost) and then steal parts for maintenance etc.

 

[Hal]

Analysis of costs of mortgages for ships, using CT costs only. The process remains the same for use with other game systems of course...

Ok, let's see what the cost of a Beowulf is in CT. It lists a cost of 37.08 MCr if no weapons are carried. Standard Mortgage terms for this craft unarmed is thus: 154,500 per month. Per jump, the mortgage is 77,250 credits. Potential revenue is 82,000 for its cargo capacity, and 60,000 credits if filled with 6 high passengers. Usually, neither option is true, and ships are lucky to have a couple of passengers, and even 80% of the cargo capacity filled in some instances. With its jump one capacity, its revenue generation at marginal worlds is abysmal.

Add a double turret however - and that adds 500,000 to the cost. Add a single laser and a single missile, and the cost increases to about 1.25 MCr. Not inclusive of the cost of missiles, we've just now added the cost of 1.75 MCr to the mortgage. Gunner Interact the software, adds another 1 MCr to the price. Any other software of course adds more, but let's look at just this modest upgrade (double turret, two weapon systems and the software to handle the systems). They add another 11,458 credits to the monthly payment. In terms of cargo carrying capacity to earn that income per jump, we divide the extra cost by 2 (monthly is 2 jumps) and get...

5,729 credits.

So, is 5,729 credits of automatic expense worth it? You decide.

 

[Hal]

Here's a link that was posted to an earlier piracy thread.

http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/pirate_economics.htm

It's pretty exhaustive. Some of the discussion so far in this thread is addressed, along with quite a lot else.

Thanks for the link, I'll have to have a look.

 

[Hal]

Soon as traffic control sees the 4g ship burning at 4g on a course towards a ship also in flight I would scramble a squadron of 6g fighters, or send a lightspeed message to the patrolcraft at the 100D limit to intercept the 4g craft - for inspection purposes only of course

First, any pirate dumb enough to hit a prey on a world with a 6G squadron of fighters, is one of those bold pirates who probably won't become an old pirate.

Seriously. Pirates have to have their eyes and ears open, and look for the right conditions, or FORCE the right conditions to occur before they can reasonably expect to ply their trade. As noted in an earlier I made, but subsequent to the post you made as quoted, a pirate can give his prey about three hours lead time before taking off if he has a 4G drive versus his prey having only 1. If he's up against a Type-T patrol cruiser, who has the same "legs" that he does, then he has time on his side. If he doesn't...

Hmm, I wonder how long after a 4G pirate's identification as being on an intercept course, the 6G fighters require to reach the same point? (mind you, that's not the same as being within weapon's effective range, but it gives us references to work with!)

Plugging in 6 G's...

The Fighters with a 6G acceleration - could with constant acceleration, reach the jump point in 6586.94 seconds, or with zero relative velocity within 9315.34 seconds. If they shoot by at full speed, they get one attack run or possibly 2, and then shoot past. If they approach more slowly so as to be able to stick around and fight - we're looking at similar approaches to a zero relative velocity at the end point.

So, depending on their strategy - they'd either take 5.489 combat turns to reach the jump point, or they'd take 7.762 combat turns to reach the same jump point.

The Pirate needed only 9.5 Combat turns to reach that point.

The crucial question then becomes...

How many combat turns before plotting knows that the pirate is on an intercept course, and how long it takes to scramble the fighters from a non-ready state to a take off state.

Let's speculate and say one turn just for giggles (that would be a Combat Air Patrol style readiness state). Per the numbers, it looks as though they could arrive make a running pass (constant accel) with about 3 turns to spare before the Pirate was upon his prey. I'd say that would probably constitute a worrisome problem to overcome by the pirate first right?

Doing the math here, it looks like the Defense team has (at 6G) roughly a window of 4 combat turns with which to respond and arrive.

NOT TOO SHABBY (*grin*)

So, against a 6G opponent, our pirate would have more problems on his hands than he'd really want. To make matters more interesting? If a base has say, 6 fighters they can put into the air at any given time, their best strategy would be to have 2 fighters on base at any given time. Assume a 2 turn requirement for the plotting to be certain they have a potential pirate action ongoing AND get the fighters aloft (it is easier to get 1 crew up and running than 14 or 18 or however many a ship requires) - and being only 2 turns behind the reaction curve is still survivable (from the freighter's crew point of view!).

Ok, now put the shoe on YOUR foot.

You're the pirate. How do you handle the problem? You've got a freighter that you think has 2 MCr of speculative cargo in the form of gems aboard. They've tried to keep a low profile, and they figured that being at a class C starport shouldn't be too much of a risk (per page 35 of LBB: STARSHIPS). You want to nail their hides, and this world has some surplus fighters available for local defense. The only Destroyer in the star system (a 5,000 dton Behemoth) is in orbit. However, rumor has it that the Destroyer is on an anti-smuggling patrol as well as showing the flag within the system. The last system this ship was in, a friend of yours did a smuggler's run in the sense that he went somewhat deep into normal space for his jump, and the jump emergence flash was sufficient for the Destroyer's captain to order an investigation. You're counting on the same sequence to arouse the same response in this star system. Now, those 6 pesky fighters are a royal pain in the arse. All six are based in quarters set apart from the main space port, but are not part of the Imperial navy. Instead, they are part of the Planetary Navy force on this backwater world.

Population is a pop rating 6 - not a mining colony, but definitely not a world worthy of having its own Imperial Knight associated with it.

Let's make it TL 8 to make things interesting.

How would YOU pull this off despite 6 fighters, or would you just simply walk away?

 

[Carlobrand]

The original premise that I pointed out, where you have a 1G freighter heading out for a Jump Point, and then having a 4G pirate take off as well - seems to be discarded as a potential scenario. It almost seems like an article of faith, that it is not possible, so no one bothers to check the math ect.

Per the original rules in Traveller, the usual process is to accelerate to the jump point and reach it with a relative velocity of zero. The formula given page 10 of LBB:STARSHIPS states that the time to travel is equal to:

2*(D/A)^.5

Diameter of Earth is listed as being 12,756 Kilometers. This becomes 12.756 million meters. Multiply this by 100 for the 100 diameter limit, and our ships have to travel a touch over 1,275,600,000 meters. 1G acceleration is 9.8 meters. ...

Which system are we using? CT Book 2, civilian sensors detect to 150,000 km, military to 600,000. If there's a halfway decent starport, starport sensors extend at least that far: your launch and vector toward an outbound merchant triggers an alert from the starport to the outbound ship, as well as a 6G pursuit that leaves right after you. Just a strategy point: you can't succeed this way unless there's nothing to speak of in the way of sensors or defense at the starport site, which means E class. Even a D would want enough of a sensor grid and defense to keep you from standing in orbit and demanding ransom to not drop missiles on what little there is of the port.

(I tend to put a couple of missile batteries at even E's if there are at least a few hundred people there; it's a logical thing for them to do to prevent pirate attacks on the colony itself, and it's affordable. They may not want to risk drawing attention to themselves by launching missiles to rescue some hapless freighter, but they've got them. But, that's IMTU; Vargr pirates attack little colonies there. It's actually a rather violent place.)

Point is, you're better off standing outside the port's sensor range if you plan an intercept, 'cause any halfway decent port is going to see you boost toward the guy and then they'll do something about it. Aramis says the jump off point's pretty predictable, but if someone's trying to avoid trouble, they can go just about anywhere on the perimeter except that area where the 100D limit stands between the jump point and the target, which leaves half that circle available. So, if you want it to work, you need an agent who can see the target leave and then tight-beam you the vector by laser so you can calculate where they'll be and plot your intercept. And hope they don't change course after they're outside of port sensor range, because some people have a healthier dose of rational paranoia than others. (It's what I used to do at some of the seedier starports as a precaution against crooked starport officials, back in the day, but adventurers tend to be more paranoid than run-of-the-mill merchant crews.) Just a strategy thought.

I like Ts prowling around following clues to pirate hangouts, not lazing about in port. My C/D starports use ship's boats in the starport "coast guard" role. At 6g and 16 MCr, 4 of them are faster, way cheaper, and less vulnerable than a single T, since destroying one still leaves the other three. They can carry boarding parties, and one can close in to dock with a stopped target while the other three stand overwatch for any tricks.

I'm big on budget - a world should be able to pay for whatever it's using to defend itself, and most places can afford a few ships' boats, the more so since they can double as ground-to-orbit workhorses when needed, ferrying weather sats to orbit and such. So my interceptors, if the world has enough people to afford them, are coming out at 6g: 153 minutes or 8 combat turns to jump point, but by about turn 6 they're within sensor range of jump point and can launch missiles or fire lasers, assuming they're using the half-light-second range civilian sensors, which is what I'd do for a stock ship's boat. And, since customs patrol and workhorse duty is their job, at least some likely to be outbound within a couple minutes of an SOS, with the remainder launching a couple turns after that. That's the other advantage of using several boats instead of one ship. So, you've got 6 turns to stop it, board, get what you want, and get away before missiles come flying your way - and the follow-on force has the full 3 light seconds sensor range, 900,000 km, once you've been spotted by the lead force, and 5G6 missiles have a range well in excess of 900,000 km, so the follow force is actually within missile range once the leaders spot you.

(It occurs to me belatedly that once the prey has you on sensors, you're spotted. A defender can use the target's sensor data to lock his own sensors on to the attacker at three second range. So really you only have about 3 turns before the leading defenders can launch missiles and try long-range laser shots.)

Or the world's too lightly populated to have them, and you can take your time.

Of course at an E port, nobody there is watching or cares. Who comes to the rescue when the prey broadcasts an SOS is a roll of the dice. Very good chance the pirate and his prey are the only spaceworthy craft in the system, other than old Jebediah and his cobweb-covered air/raft. Which is why it's an E port, and this prey knew he was taking a chance when he went there, so he's either ready for it or he's about to be the victim of Darwinian selection. I like a fully armed Subsidized Merchant for such stops, with an armed launch. I'm at a disadvantage, but people are more likely to leave me alone if they know they're gonna get hurt badly while taking me down. I suspect that's why the Imperium subsidizes them. But, sometimes those free traders take some big risks.

Thing is, waiting around for a free trader to show up at a D/E port can be a very long and profitless way to spend time. You'd be better hanging out at the originating port, waiting for some bribed official to get you news that some free trader is taking goods to that little e-port world, and then follow him to the e-port at a more leisurely pace. If you pick the right port, there may be more than one little D/E port that people occasionally go to from there, and you'll be able to watch for traffic to both at the same time. Or, contrive to have something shipped there under a pseudonym, then follow the person you just set up.

 

[Carlobrand]

...
Now, add in but a single gunner to the equation.

The gunner takes a stateroom, and his pay per jump is 500 credits. Total cost to revenue income is his 4,000 credits plus his life support, plus his pay, or 6,500 Originally, we divided the Steward's cost by 6 because he had 6 potential staterooms - with a gunner, his cost is divided by 5. Likewise, the gunner's cost is divided by 5. So now, we need 6500/5 plus 7500/5 added to the stateroom revenue and we get...14,000/5 (combined expenses) or 2,800 lost revenue per stateroom. That takes it to requiring 8,800 credits minimum per stateroom to offset the cost of the Steward and the gunner. Now we're LOSING 800 credits per middle passenger, and making only 1200 profit per high passenger. That's per jump, not including lost revenue per stateroom that remains empty...

Which is a good reason not to carry a gunner on a secure route. On a route that is not secure, you either carry the gunner and don't go unless it's profitable, or you don't go at all. You don't gamble you ship unless you're really, really desperate, and pirates waiting around for that one really, really desperate guy with no guns to fly to the E-port that rarely sees traffic because, you know, that's why it's an E-port - they're likely to get very bored waiting.

 

[flykiller]

no one wants to build the structure required to play the game at both a tactical level and a strategic level.

no-one, eh? well, tell you what, build it, and I'll join you in playing it, as will others I'm sure.

 

[Timerover51]

Which is a good reason not to carry a gunner on a secure route. On a route that is not secure, you either carry the gunner and don't go unless it's profitable, or you don't go at all. You don't gamble you ship unless you're really, really desperate, and pirates waiting around for that one really, really desperate guy with no guns to fly to the E-port that rarely sees traffic because, you know, that's why it's an E-port - they're likely to get very bored waiting.

Pirates are not going to bother with traffic going to Class E ports, because it is so infrequent. If piracy exists, it will be off of Class A/B/C ports, with a sufficient volume of traffic to make it worth while. Where did surface raiders travel in naval wars? On the established trade routes. Where did submarines congregate, unless they had "special intelligence"? On established routes linking major ports. Blackbeard operated off of the entrance to Delaware Bay and Cape Hatteras, with the apparent collusion of a couple of colonial governors. The Buccaneers worked the Straits of Florida, and the island passages from the Caribbean to the Atlantic. Smaller groups would raid ports looking for loot, not spend months sitting offshore waiting for the odd ship to show up. Pirates are more apt to be port-attacking raiders rather than attacking ships in space.