2320AD
- Thread starter Colin
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Enoff
SOC-13
You know its not too hard to set up a paypal account, get some web hosting space at www.godaddy.com and start your own publishing company.
PDFs and the web has freed a lot of people from having to deal with publishers that can't get their act together.
my $.02
PDFs and the web has freed a lot of people from having to deal with publishers that can't get their act together.
my $.02
M
Malenfant
Guest
Colin can't self-publish because he has been paid for the work that Hunter is sitting on and doing nothing with. I'm sure he'd love to do it though if he could.
And MJD, that's why I said moral obligation. The law may be behind them to allow them to do whatever they please with the work (including not publishing it), but getting it done once you've paid the money for it is just the decent thing to do. It's certainly not encouraging anyone to waste their time doing work for QLI if it's never going to see the light of day. Personally I wouldn't care how much they paid me if they were just going to do nothing with it - like I said the whole point of a book is for it to get published.
This is why I'm not interested in sympathising with Hunter or being patient with him. I couldn't care what his problems are anymore, enough time has been wasted here - he needs to either get the material that's written published in some form or allow the authors full control over the IP again. Once that happens, if there's no further progress then QLI can die by the wayside for all I care.
And MJD, that's why I said moral obligation. The law may be behind them to allow them to do whatever they please with the work (including not publishing it), but getting it done once you've paid the money for it is just the decent thing to do. It's certainly not encouraging anyone to waste their time doing work for QLI if it's never going to see the light of day. Personally I wouldn't care how much they paid me if they were just going to do nothing with it - like I said the whole point of a book is for it to get published.
This is why I'm not interested in sympathising with Hunter or being patient with him. I couldn't care what his problems are anymore, enough time has been wasted here - he needs to either get the material that's written published in some form or allow the authors full control over the IP again. Once that happens, if there's no further progress then QLI can die by the wayside for all I care.
<gingerly borrows the goat>
that m'lord successfully and professionally navigates these shoals warrants applause and respect. that amateurs should crash upon them is unremarkable. and this lowly hobbyist, hearing other hobbyists and less complain of loss of copyright, wonders why it was given, and of payment, wonders why it was sought.
<hands the goat back>
(bowing low in the presence of traveller nobility) and you have my awe and admiration Mr. Martin J. Dougherty. but surely my lord speaks in ideal generalities, as not all publishers are equal in risk, yes? where profits are thin, where budgets are low, where staffing is minimal, where markets are strongly opinionated, where copyrights are held by one individual without backup, where industry history includes failed companies and unpaid vendors, surely a contributor recognizes or should recognize that there is risk involved, and, contributing, surely accepts that risk. having accepted that risk, to then express "valid anger" at its realization, whether in loss of copyright or lack of payment, is pointless.
that m'lord successfully and professionally navigates these shoals warrants applause and respect. that amateurs should crash upon them is unremarkable. and this lowly hobbyist, hearing other hobbyists and less complain of loss of copyright, wonders why it was given, and of payment, wonders why it was sought.
<hands the goat back>
no, you didn't come across as confrontational, and even if you did y'all don't need to apologize, 'specially to me. don't worry about it.
yep, I've often said that traveller could grow to be a lot more. I hope you're right about the active audience being larger than I think it is. anything you can do to make that happen, go for it.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Brown-nose much, flykiller?
And please write in plain english, waffling in arcane "olde-sounding" language doesn't make your point any clearer.
You've clearly never had anything published by a company. Both myself and Martin have (Martin moreso, obviously). The way it works is that you sign contracts (verbal or written), you do the work, you expect it to be published (and most of the time it is). It doesn't matter if the company is a one-man show or a megacorp - it's the same drill for everything. You've got to believe that it will be published when you go into it, or why the hell are you wasting your time writing the book in the first place?
Hindsight is 20/20 - when the books were commissioned things seemed to be going fairly well for QLI. Though it became apparent at least to me (and probably to others) as licences were piling up that Hunter was probably biting off more than he could chew even if he spent all his time working on QLI stuff - at one point there was the Honor Harrington licence, the Posleen one (which baffled me, it's not like it was remotely well known), the T20 guidebook, TNE:1248, and 2320AD going on at the same time. Warning bells were certainly going off in my head, but I figured that between Hunter and MJD they could get everything out of the door, and the playtests were certainly going well for 1248 and 2320AD too.
And then suddenly Hunter disappeared - dropped off the face of the Earth with no word of warning at all. IIRC it took a while before we even got a message that Katrina had something to do with it, and then... silence. Meanwhile projects dropped by the wayside, licenses got cancelled, authors were ignored, people wanted service or were owed money and didn't get it. Nobody could have predicted that sort of dereliction and negligence (and that's exactly what it was. As far as I'm concerned there is no excuse for Hunter's absolute lack of contact over that 'silent year', he could have at least made some effort to fire off short notes to someone during that time saying what was going on).
So it seems rather sanctimonious for you to be lecturing people who are directly involved in this mess about how they should have "realised the risk" when there was little reason to be concerned that anything was going to go horribly wrong. It's all very well for you to sit there on the sidelines after the fact and say that, but at the time we had no clue what was coming and the disastrous effect it would have, and no reason to believe that anything like that would happen.
And please write in plain english, waffling in arcane "olde-sounding" language doesn't make your point any clearer.
You've clearly never had anything published by a company. Both myself and Martin have (Martin moreso, obviously). The way it works is that you sign contracts (verbal or written), you do the work, you expect it to be published (and most of the time it is). It doesn't matter if the company is a one-man show or a megacorp - it's the same drill for everything. You've got to believe that it will be published when you go into it, or why the hell are you wasting your time writing the book in the first place?
Hindsight is 20/20 - when the books were commissioned things seemed to be going fairly well for QLI. Though it became apparent at least to me (and probably to others) as licences were piling up that Hunter was probably biting off more than he could chew even if he spent all his time working on QLI stuff - at one point there was the Honor Harrington licence, the Posleen one (which baffled me, it's not like it was remotely well known), the T20 guidebook, TNE:1248, and 2320AD going on at the same time. Warning bells were certainly going off in my head, but I figured that between Hunter and MJD they could get everything out of the door, and the playtests were certainly going well for 1248 and 2320AD too.
And then suddenly Hunter disappeared - dropped off the face of the Earth with no word of warning at all. IIRC it took a while before we even got a message that Katrina had something to do with it, and then... silence. Meanwhile projects dropped by the wayside, licenses got cancelled, authors were ignored, people wanted service or were owed money and didn't get it. Nobody could have predicted that sort of dereliction and negligence (and that's exactly what it was. As far as I'm concerned there is no excuse for Hunter's absolute lack of contact over that 'silent year', he could have at least made some effort to fire off short notes to someone during that time saying what was going on).
So it seems rather sanctimonious for you to be lecturing people who are directly involved in this mess about how they should have "realised the risk" when there was little reason to be concerned that anything was going to go horribly wrong. It's all very well for you to sit there on the sidelines after the fact and say that, but at the time we had no clue what was coming and the disastrous effect it would have, and no reason to believe that anything like that would happen.
Mal: I take your point about the moral obligation. A lot of poeple would disagree about whether it exists, but I can see where you're coming from. 15 years ago I would have been heartbroken to be paid and not published. These days I do this for a living so the money has to come first... which is ironic, since COlin has payment but no IP and I have IP and no payment. I suspect we'd both be happier the other way around.
Flykiller... huh?
If your employer paid yor for years and then didn't one month, you'd be a bit irritated by someone saying you should have noted the risk, no? YOU do not 'accept the risk' that you might not get paid when you go to work in the morning, do you?
I worked with QLI for years and got paid. QLI became pretty much my sole client. I would not have allowed that to happen if I suspected flakage.
Yes, I would accept the risk of working with a new client, and I'd only take a little $50 job to test the waters, or more fool me if I fell for the dog and pony show (wry memories of a certain huge launch of a great new project that was just vaoprware in the end. I was one of the involved-cynics who only lost a few emails. Others lost months of work)...
Point is, writing is my job. You contract me to write, I do the work. I then have a right to expect payment. It works the same in every industry, but in this one flaking (on both sides) seems to be accepted.
"The contractor took the money and didn't build the road. Hey, construction is a hobby industry, what did you expect?" Doesn't work, does it? So why is it accepted in this industry?
Flykiller... huh?
If your employer paid yor for years and then didn't one month, you'd be a bit irritated by someone saying you should have noted the risk, no? YOU do not 'accept the risk' that you might not get paid when you go to work in the morning, do you?
I worked with QLI for years and got paid. QLI became pretty much my sole client. I would not have allowed that to happen if I suspected flakage.
Yes, I would accept the risk of working with a new client, and I'd only take a little $50 job to test the waters, or more fool me if I fell for the dog and pony show (wry memories of a certain huge launch of a great new project that was just vaoprware in the end. I was one of the involved-cynics who only lost a few emails. Others lost months of work)...
Point is, writing is my job. You contract me to write, I do the work. I then have a right to expect payment. It works the same in every industry, but in this one flaking (on both sides) seems to be accepted.
"The contractor took the money and didn't build the road. Hey, construction is a hobby industry, what did you expect?" Doesn't work, does it? So why is it accepted in this industry?
While every viewpoint here is valid can I be a little controversial here and ask everyone to calm down a little? we're all singing from the same hymn book here and I'm not sure how arguing amongst ourselves is going to help. PLEASE be aware I'm not singling anyone out here.
my £0.01p worth ($0.02c)
Secondly, rights are a nightmare at the best of times... even the most well meaning partners in publication can find themselves snarled up in tape (I onced naiivly attempted to acquire the rights to a Blade Runner RPG from the BR partnership (6 months wasted there) and also, incidentally, 2300AD from Marc (a few years ago now and it never got past the e-mailing stage).
Now,
Here is the undeniable fact:
Whether we like it or not (and most of us don't) 2320 BELONGS to Hunter (Colin has been paid) so he can make a huge papier-mache bust of 'Triumphant Destiny's' head out of the manuscript if he likes. It's his. FACT.
Let's get away from flaming each other, 'woulda-coulda' etc and let's focus on the matter in hand.
How we, as a collective, can save 2320. I have only 1 idea-
We raise the funds to buy the book from Hunter and negotiate new rights with Marc. As for head of this collective? I nominate Colin or MJD.
If all this strikes you as naiive nonsense then maybe it is. maybe it's highly impractical. I'm all out of ideas.... but at least I'm putting some forward.
my £0.01p worth ($0.02c)
Secondly, rights are a nightmare at the best of times... even the most well meaning partners in publication can find themselves snarled up in tape (I onced naiivly attempted to acquire the rights to a Blade Runner RPG from the BR partnership (6 months wasted there) and also, incidentally, 2300AD from Marc (a few years ago now and it never got past the e-mailing stage).
Now,
Here is the undeniable fact:
Whether we like it or not (and most of us don't) 2320 BELONGS to Hunter (Colin has been paid) so he can make a huge papier-mache bust of 'Triumphant Destiny's' head out of the manuscript if he likes. It's his. FACT.
Let's get away from flaming each other, 'woulda-coulda' etc and let's focus on the matter in hand.
How we, as a collective, can save 2320. I have only 1 idea-
We raise the funds to buy the book from Hunter and negotiate new rights with Marc. As for head of this collective? I nominate Colin or MJD.
If all this strikes you as naiive nonsense then maybe it is. maybe it's highly impractical. I'm all out of ideas.... but at least I'm putting some forward.
M
Malenfant
Guest
How do you expect to buy the book from Hunter if Hunter's not responding to people? He might not even want to sell it. Are they even his rights to sell, or are they Marc's?
And really, fans shouldn't be the ones that have to rustle up money to save books that haven't been published. It's bad enough that someone had to pay to save the CotI website registration, but we shouldn't have to do that for books too. And if nothing else, it's highly exploitative of the fans - the publisher is there to pay for and publish the work, not the fans.
We're all just pissing in the wind until Hunter deigns to do something about this himself. With no response and no communication, nobody here can do a damn thing. That's why it's so frustrating.
To be honest I think the only practical option left is for Colin to either approach Marc directly and see if he can get him to give the rights back to Colin, or for Colin to go see an IP lawyer and take legal action to get his IP back. I don't see why anyone should pull punches here anymore though.
And really, fans shouldn't be the ones that have to rustle up money to save books that haven't been published. It's bad enough that someone had to pay to save the CotI website registration, but we shouldn't have to do that for books too. And if nothing else, it's highly exploitative of the fans - the publisher is there to pay for and publish the work, not the fans.
We're all just pissing in the wind until Hunter deigns to do something about this himself. With no response and no communication, nobody here can do a damn thing. That's why it's so frustrating.
To be honest I think the only practical option left is for Colin to either approach Marc directly and see if he can get him to give the rights back to Colin, or for Colin to go see an IP lawyer and take legal action to get his IP back. I don't see why anyone should pull punches here anymore though.
R
Roger Calver
Guest
Well from my POV it's an idea that has some merit to it I would be interested in helping out with it, all comes down to is it possible and how many would be willing to stand up and be counted ?
R
Roger Calver
Guest
Mal, true its all a bit of a legal minefield but still its at least a idea which is heading in the direction that we all (I think) would like to see things go.
At the end of the day we want to see 2300AD/2320AD out and published and your correct in saying (along with others) that until Hunter makes an post or shows up its all moot.
If Hunter cannot reply than that just means talking to Marc Miller and with T5 release coming up soonish maybe hes got other things to worry about.
At the end of the day we want to see 2300AD/2320AD out and published and your correct in saying (along with others) that until Hunter makes an post or shows up its all moot.
If Hunter cannot reply than that just means talking to Marc Miller and with T5 release coming up soonish maybe hes got other things to worry about.
He's obviously in contact with someone. He pays bills etc (and presumably his taxes). Does Hunter have an ebay account? You can get his number from that if you've ever bought or sold anything via him. There are ways and means to contact someone. Isnt there a petition site? Where we could all sign it and send it to his home address? just ideas...dont shoot me. 
I had Marc's e-mail from a year or two ago... let me see if I can find it.
I had Marc's e-mail from a year or two ago... let me see if I can find it.
R
Roger Calver
Guest
Yep, just checked you can pay for stuff via Paypal to QLI but dont know about any contact details.
Petition yeah sounds OK but still only if he reads its other wise scrap paper, but still an option to work on.
Petition yeah sounds OK but still only if he reads its other wise scrap paper, but still an option to work on.
M
Malenfant
Guest
So what, are you suggesting we hire a private detective to track him down or something?! Even Martin couldn't get hold of him while he was gone. Think about what you're saying for a minute. We, as members of this community can't do anything at all about this - all we can do is talk about the situation.
The reality of the situation is that the only people who are in any kind of position to take practical action are people like Colin or Marc, who are directly involved - and they can only either attempt to communicate with Hunter themselves, come to a decision over his head, or take legal action to get his attention. That's it - it's phenomenally naive to think that mere fans can or should do any of that.
Petitions are always a waste of time - nobody ever does anything about them.
The reality of the situation is that the only people who are in any kind of position to take practical action are people like Colin or Marc, who are directly involved - and they can only either attempt to communicate with Hunter themselves, come to a decision over his head, or take legal action to get his attention. That's it - it's phenomenally naive to think that mere fans can or should do any of that.
Petitions are always a waste of time - nobody ever does anything about them.
not if they were right.
if, knowing a company is on the edge financially, knowing a company is thin in personnel, knowing a company operates in an "industry" that has experienced failures and non-payments before, and knowing that everything revolves around one guy, one submits work anyway, then one accepts the risk of non-payment. if the risk realizes, to be angry about it is to deny one made any choices in the matter. but one did.
as for why this is "accepted" in the rpg world more than any place else, I don't know. maybe because it is indeed a hobby, populated with enthusiasts who pay little for product and who will sometimes work for little or for free. (a road-building company is not a hobby - nobody builds a road for free.)
from the outside looking in I don't see how any of you do it at all. failed companies, fierce competition (traveller itself has competing product lines!), small markets, tiny margins, customers wailing that they can't afford a $25 book, entire customer bases denouncing certain product lines, and a product that frankly can be developed independently by anyone capable of understanding the product. and out on the net a whole slew of fan material for free. and you make a living at this? I salute you.
M
Malenfant
Guest
It's so easy to say that from outside, isn't it.
The risk wasn't a factor when 2320AD was commissioned. Things were looking good at the time. Shit happened and now Colin's left in the lurch and his work remains unpublished.
And yet you still have the gall to get all gloating and sanctimonious about how it's basically Colin's fault for being dumb enough to think that his book would be published by such a small operation? And that he shouldn't be angry about it because there was always a risk it wouldn't get published? Utter nonsense!
Here's a newsflash for you, pal - there's a risk involved in EVERYTHING. People are more than entitled to get angry when they do all that they can to mitigate those risks and yet something out of their control comes along to screw it all up for them. And they're certainly entitled to be angry at people like you who waltz in claiming it's their fault for not accounting for things going pear-shaped with no warning. And if you claimed for a second that you wouldn't get pissed off if it was your work getting screwed over like this, then I'd call you a liar.
I really think you'd better stop saying anything more on this subject in this thread before you really piss Colin or Martin off. Your point is not a valid one.
Rhialto the Marvelous
SOC-13
Oh brother.
Good day, y'all, this is Pierce Inverarity (forgot my CotI password).
Last time I checked a Traveller message board, it was for a nice little chat over on Comstar about the sinkage of ACT.
And today, for the first time in months I look at CotI to check some info for 2300AD (gonna play in a 2300 game soon, yay!)... and find this.
Martin, you're a saint. Seriously, no irony intended. Thanks for putting up with so much Trav-related crap.
It's crazy. Once upon a time, Traveller was a great roleplaying game. And now it's become this leaking tramp freighter that's careening rudderless from one disaster to the next... until such a time, I'm guessing five years from now, when it'll finally smash into the iceberg called T5.
Can't YOU buy QLI, Martin?
Good day, y'all, this is Pierce Inverarity (forgot my CotI password).
Last time I checked a Traveller message board, it was for a nice little chat over on Comstar about the sinkage of ACT.
And today, for the first time in months I look at CotI to check some info for 2300AD (gonna play in a 2300 game soon, yay!)... and find this.
Martin, you're a saint. Seriously, no irony intended. Thanks for putting up with so much Trav-related crap.
It's crazy. Once upon a time, Traveller was a great roleplaying game. And now it's become this leaking tramp freighter that's careening rudderless from one disaster to the next... until such a time, I'm guessing five years from now, when it'll finally smash into the iceberg called T5.
Can't YOU buy QLI, Martin?
Hmm, quite a lot of talk here on this subject. I started this thread to see if Hunter was paying attention, quite frankly. He's been on the boards since, but I have yet to receive any contact from him. So either he can't, or won't, pay attention to this thread.
There are three issues in connection with the publication of 2320AD, as far as I am concerned. The first is, I would like to see it in print. It represents a great deal of work for me and many others, and seeing it out, and preferably on shelves, is important to me. Another issue, however, does revolve around payment. My contract with QLI does entitle me to additional money depending on sales. This cannot happen without sales, however, and I wouldn't mind the money. Third, I have a bunch of ideas, and with them product, that I would like to create (and sell), but cannot do so without 2320AD being actually out there.
I was, briefly, in touch with Marc last year about licensing 2300AD. He was receptive to the idea. Then, suddenly, Hunter reappeared, and Marc seemed to disappear. The big issue in licensing 2300AD is that all the work I did for 2320AD gets flushed. I can't use it without buying it back from Hunter, assuming that he would sell. 2320AD is not my IP. It was work-for-hire, and I explicitly gave up all rights to it in the contract.
I recently sent Hunter a message, to a private email address he set up solely for correspondence about 2320AD, offering to come to some sort of deal whereby I would bring 2320AD out, and pay him off. No response. Mind you, I haven't received a response from that email address since shortly after he set it up.
At this point, I personally would be satisfied with a message from Hunter saying "Sorry, can't do it. 2320AD is dead in the water." That would free my mind to either deal with Marc in good faith, or move on to other projects. I could deal with that, I wouldn't like it, but I could deal with it. Better would be a message saying, "OK, you want it, it's yours. Pay me off when you can. Marc is onboard." Yeah...
So that's where I'm at, stuck in Limbo, 'twixt Heaven and Hell.
Martin, you want your goat back?
You can have one of mine. I have five of the damn things, and they keep eating my trees. Good for sacrificial purposes, or so I hear.
There are three issues in connection with the publication of 2320AD, as far as I am concerned. The first is, I would like to see it in print. It represents a great deal of work for me and many others, and seeing it out, and preferably on shelves, is important to me. Another issue, however, does revolve around payment. My contract with QLI does entitle me to additional money depending on sales. This cannot happen without sales, however, and I wouldn't mind the money. Third, I have a bunch of ideas, and with them product, that I would like to create (and sell), but cannot do so without 2320AD being actually out there.
I was, briefly, in touch with Marc last year about licensing 2300AD. He was receptive to the idea. Then, suddenly, Hunter reappeared, and Marc seemed to disappear. The big issue in licensing 2300AD is that all the work I did for 2320AD gets flushed. I can't use it without buying it back from Hunter, assuming that he would sell. 2320AD is not my IP. It was work-for-hire, and I explicitly gave up all rights to it in the contract.
I recently sent Hunter a message, to a private email address he set up solely for correspondence about 2320AD, offering to come to some sort of deal whereby I would bring 2320AD out, and pay him off. No response. Mind you, I haven't received a response from that email address since shortly after he set it up.
At this point, I personally would be satisfied with a message from Hunter saying "Sorry, can't do it. 2320AD is dead in the water." That would free my mind to either deal with Marc in good faith, or move on to other projects. I could deal with that, I wouldn't like it, but I could deal with it. Better would be a message saying, "OK, you want it, it's yours. Pay me off when you can. Marc is onboard." Yeah...
So that's where I'm at, stuck in Limbo, 'twixt Heaven and Hell.
Martin, you want your goat back?
Pierce... No, I can't and for so many reasons. Lack of money is one (I worked for a year and never made a return on it; see above). I don't imagine Hunter would sell even if he was around to discuss it with. And of course... I hesitate to say this but: would you spend money on acquiring QLI right now?
And anyway, I've already effectively bought back my manuscripts from QLI - they were never paid for so I reclaimed them.
And anyway, I've already effectively bought back my manuscripts from QLI - they were never paid for so I reclaimed them.
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