2d6? Why oh why?

[the angle]

Personally, I'd use a d10 instead of a 2d6 system.

I have it on what I consider to be good authority (an ex-GDW employee) that throughout the development process, MT was meant to use 1d10 for task resolution, not 2d6. At the 12th hour, a decision was made to stick with 2d6 instead, because that's what Traveller players would expect. All instances of 1d10 were changed to 2d6, but nothing else was altered. The result was task profiles that didn't make sense. The printed difficulty numbers are quite a bit more reasonable when viewed through the lens of d10 probability.

For 2d6, the standard target numbers should be

Simple: 5
Routine: 8
Difficult: 11
Formidable: 14

With 2d6, the probabilities in that progression are very close to what they would be in the printed targets of 3, 7, 11, 15 if you were rolling 1d10 instead. I've played it this way for years (with 2d6) and found that it works superbly. Or you could use the task profiles as printed but substitute 1d10 wherever the rules state 2d6 (essentially reversing the last-minute "change all" that caused the confusion in the first place). IMO, the decision to stick with 2d6 as emblematic of Traveller was a good call; making that decision as the boards were going to the printer, without time to implement it thoroughly, was quite unfortunate.

I wrote an article on this some years ago and posted it here, if anyone's interested in a more in-depth discussion --

http://home.comcast.net/~s.winter/traveller_tasks.htm

Steve

 

[far-trader]

Firstly, welcome aboard to the angle

That's very interesting, and thanks for the link Steve, have to mark that for reading later.

 

[Imperial Planetologist]

After all, who wants to roleplay an average person?

Roleplaying a person of average abilities in extraordinary circumstances is considered a lot of fun by many gamers.

Not everyone's looking for Exalted.

 

[Jacqual]

From an OLD CT player like myself when comparing the rules I see some diffs yes. But I do not have any problems with the MongT skills being in the 3+ range. I had CT Marines with 2 weapon skills at 3 or higher multiple times. But if they got into a fist fight with a merchant they would get hammered. So in MongT you might get a skill of +3 and It might be in the same style or career that happens in CT. If you are a marine or army character it will most likely be a weapon skill. If you are a Doc then it will most likely be medical or whatever you happen to be ok. That is relistic if a player wants to make a Doc and spends 5 terms then I really hope that he can be a Doc and not just a Medic-1 nurse. If someone does something for 20 years they get better at it. So if I was a character this might happen, I in real life work in Security I have for 5 years I would figure I might have Law-1, I also have Brawling-2 why I have to wrestle bad people down so the police can come and take them to jail. Will I have Law-2 next term I doubt it but I bet Brawling will hit a 3 couse I am still having to take down the bad guys.

 

[DaveChase]

...
Travellers, by their chosen path in (later) life _are_ exceptional. I would say that most of the NPCs created by the same system (rather than just having skills assigned by the GM) are also exceptional.

Nothing wrong with either. After all, who wants to roleplay an average person?



...

Roleplaying a person of average abilities in extraordinary circumstances is considered a lot of fun by many gamers.

Not everyone's looking for Exalted.

I have to concur with Imperial Planetologist. I have had fun playing ave to below average stated characters in games before. It really depends on the other players at the game also.

It's is and should not be much different than playing a character with strong personality quirks. Like extreme fear of fire, heights, open spaces, or hatred of something.

Playing a bunch of supers should be left for Champions or some other super hero game.

Dave Chase

 

[MongooseMatt]

Guys, the characters you create in Traveller are hardly Exalted

 

[King of Old School]

The idea that you're either into roleplaying an asthmatic supply clerk, or you're some munchkin that wants to play Exalted or Champions characters in the Traveller setting, is exactly the kind of grognardy onetruewayism that creates ill will here. There's an awfully wide gap between playing a superhero and playing a character who's at least as competent as I am in real life, and frankly an individual who is less competent than the real-world me wouldn't have survived 3 terms in the Star Marines to become a capable adventurer.

KoOS

 

[DaveChase]

The idea that you're either into roleplaying an asthmatic supply clerk, or you're some munchkin that wants to play Exalted or Champions characters in the Traveller setting, is exactly the kind of grognardy onetruewayism that creates ill will here. There's an awfully wide gap between playing a superhero and playing a character who's at least as competent as I am in real life, and frankly an individual who is less competent than the real-world me wouldn't have survived 3 terms in the Star Marines to become a capable adventurer.

KoOS

Hoah, then every rule was followed and the bad, terrible, no skilled workers where always fired.
I have seen to many times someone's relative, friend, kid of a friend, etc who was just passed through and made it out. I have seen in the military poor individuals passed on to another unit or such, instead of just being kicked out. So it happens in real life, so it could happen in a game.

I think you are missing 2 small bits about the potential in Traveller creation:
1) not all your stats are required to be average or higher. You can on ave have 3 stats that are only 2 and still succeed in the chargen.
2) aging rolls could make you senile or weak or well below average or might even kill you.

Oh, and apology if any feels its needed. I was in no way saying that Mongoose Traveller was about super, above average characters. I was only referring to the fact that it can be fun to play those characters who are below average in some areas.

I can understand Matt's comment about 'who wants to play an average person in RPG. It happens with all new gamers for some time. Then at some point those who game a lot will start playing characters who seem normal (RL) or have some quirks/issues and then extra real fun can be had by all.

Dave Chase

 

[rust]

In my opinion the stats are only a comparatively small part of what defines
whether a character is "average" (or above or below average) and playable,
I see his role within the setting as far more important.

For an extreme example, take a look at Miles Vorkosigan of the Vorkosigan
Saga novels. His physical stats could easily be seen as that of a completely
unplayable character, but his position in the setting makes him a most inter-
esting potential player character.

So, in my view a character can be average, or above or below average, for
a specific role in the setting, but he can hardly be average etc. "in general",
unless one looks at the stats only and ignores both the setting and the ac-
tual roleplaying dimension of the character.

 

[far-trader]

In my opinion the stats are only a comparatively small part of what defines
whether a character is "average" (or above or below average) and playable,
I see his role within the setting as far more important.

Agreed. And that is the part that falls into the lap of the Ref. To make the game interesting for the players. To play to their characters and roles. Not to create some infernal gauntlet that only the strongest most skilled with the best gear have any hope of surviving by lucky rolls.

The first type of ref welcomes diverse and (to some) crippled characters because they enhance the role playing experience. The second type of ref can only expect super characters and (some) players will soon tire of the endless roll playing. Traveller has long been knocked for death in chargen but I've been in a few other rpgs over the years where the exact same thing happens, only the ref called them "adventures".

"Oh, that's too bad your whole party of 1st level characters died. Roll new ones and we'll try to open that door to the dungeon again and maybe get to the first monster."

I feel it's partly an old school/new age divide but it's also partly a matter of experience, both player and ref. So what's needed is to get the new to rpg hooked by a little flash and heroics, with 1 or 2 simple fully laid out adventures. Then after they've cut their teeth they can be shown how "average" characters can be fun when "role" played and that refs don't need every encounter spelled out in detail with every ruling and roll referenced to run an adventure and have everyone enjoying the game.

 

[DaveChase]

Which is why in my games (that I have run in the past face to face) I allow individuals to have quirks, oddities and such.

Some times I would have them roll for them (if they had no idea of what would make some interesting quirks) or I would allow them to choose. If the choose option was used they had to take either 1 major or 2 minor or 4 annoying quirks (or 1 minor and 2 annoying).
Note these are not things/abilities/or stats that help but are things like

Hate green food.
Always wears lucking "____" foot
Must sleep with head toward X position of the ship or sun
Fear of fire,lasers, razor blades, little girls

Then we would determine a back story about why such quirk(s) existed.

It was hard on some players (especially those new to RPG), but once we discussed about how their favorite movie, TV show or book characters all had some type of quirk. Most just don't think about it, to realize that the most popular characters had some flaw or quirk about them.

And I have to agree that a lot of the pressure is on the GM to create and maintain a world that is fun to play in. Or at least interesting to keep players coming back.

Dave Chase

 

[Imperial Planetologist]

Guys, the characters you create in Traveller are hardly Exalted

No, they're not, but where does it say they're not average vis-a-vis NPCs?

It was true for CT: 1001 Characters notes that the characters presented in the supplement can be used interchangeably as PCs or NPCs. That NPCs and PCs are generated the same way is implicit in the game, making the player characters extraordinary not by their stats or skills but by the situations in which they find/place themselves.

Is this another change in Mongoose Traveller? Does the Mongoose version have "0-level humans" or "mook rules?" Are the chargen rules intended only for PCs and "special" NPCs?

 

[Allensh]

Absolutely none of my characters are "superheroes". some of them are highly trained and competent, yes..but then given their careers and the length of time they spent in them, that makes sense. Others..not so much. Once they figured out that more terms = more skill levels = slower advancement, some of them chose to stop after 3 terms or less just so they could "see their character grow during play".

There are a lot of assumptions being made here they at the least do not match the reality of the games of MgT that I have run. It almost reads like they are being made on read-throughs and not on actual play experience.

All I know is none of the players I run for feel that they have too many skills and all of them like the game.

Allen

 

[King of Old School]

No, they're not, but where does it say they're not average vis-a-vis NPCs?

It was true for CT: 1001 Characters notes that the characters presented in the supplement can be used interchangeably as PCs or NPCs. That NPCs and PCs are generated the same way is implicit in the game, making the player characters extraordinary not by their stats or skills but by the situations in which they find/place themselves.

Is this another change in Mongoose Traveller? Does the Mongoose version have "0-level humans" or "mook rules?" Are the chargen rules intended only for PCs and "special" NPCs?

No. And contrary to your rhetoric, MGT actually does a better job than CT at allowing average citizens to be created with the base chargen system. I think you'll find that CT PCs are hardly average members of society, unless you live in an unusual (by 21st century Western standards) society where 80% of citizens have military or paramilitary training. MGT explicitly offers options like journalists, strippers, farmers and construction workers in the RAW.

The only meaningful difference as far as stats is allowing the player to choose where he puts his scores -- you're equally likely to get scores above 10 or scores below 5 in MGT as you are in CT, the difference in the RAW is that if you want to play a Marine you can decide to put your high scores in STR, DEX and END. There's nothing unrealistic about this; corner cases aside, I think you'll find that in real life people tend to gravitate towards careers for which they have an aptitude, and away from careers for which they do not.

Likewise, my own experience and observation is that in MGT you are slightly but not significantly more likely to end up with a 3 or a 4 in your primary skill (or 2 skills, more rarely) than is the case in CT. You will not end up with half a dozen wildly disparate skills at 4 using the RAW. The real difference is that you will have moderately more level-1 skills, and signficantly more level-0 skills, with MGT chargen. Whether this is a feature or a bug is entirely down to personal taste, but characterizing it as akin to something like Champions or Exalted is intellectually dishonest flamebait.

KoOS

 

[aramis]

80% would be about right for many european countries, tho' two years is apparently the norm. Universal conscription is fairly normative in Eastern europe, and last I heard, also in Germany (tho' germans may opt for other public service jobs than a 2 year hitch).

 

[rust]

80% would be about right for many european countries, tho' two years is apparently the norm. Universal conscription is fairly normative in Eastern europe, and last I heard, also in Germany (tho' germans may opt for other public service jobs than a 2 year hitch).

In Germany conscription currently is for 9 months, and only about 54 % of
all male citizens are conscripted for the military or serve with the alternative
"civil service", which also lasts 9 months.

As you can see from this map, conscription has become very rare in Europe,
even in most of Eastern Europe:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...of_the_world.svg&filetimestamp=20090131102940

So, far less than 80 % of younger Europeans have any military experience.
In my opinion the real percentage of those who ever served with the milita-
ry is probably much closer to 20 %, perhaps even less.

 

[far-trader]

...but big deal.

Saying that all the people in the Traveller Universe serve in one of the 6 original careers is bogus beyond belief. Even disallowing the Citizen careers from Supplement 4 there's nothing to say that all the characters being generated will enter one of the 5 service careers*. I'm sure player characters will attempt to do so, but even they may not make the enlistment roll and fall to Other in the draft. And I wouldn't count Merchants as military (para or full) and even Scouts are barely qualified to be paramilitary imo.

* heck, I roll(ed) most of my NPCs as Other for that very reason.

So, certainly less than 80%. Not much more than 60% even sticking to just the original 6 careers and counting Scouts. And more like less than 50% not counting Scouts and factoring draft into Other.

And does Traveller really need "Stripper" as a career choice? o:

Is that really a career choice in MGT?! :nonono:

 

[rust]

And does Traveller really need "Stripper" as a career choice? o:
Is that really a career choice in MGT?! :nonono:

No, of course not. A performing artist could be a stripper, too, but not
all performing artists are strippers.

 

[far-trader]

No, of course not. A performing artist could be a stripper, too, but not
all performing artists are strippers.

Good, I'd hoped it was something like Performer and "Stripper" was just grabbed from thin air to make the point seem more valid. As in "MGT even lets you generate Strippers!" Why not add Comedian, Actress, Singer, etc... Might as well have included Pimp, Pusher, Pickpocket, etc, etc, too if there is a Criminal career :smirk:

And again, more to KoOS than yourself rust but thanks for the clarification, so what? I can get all those from CT B1 Other too. Of course my way may require more imagination as some skills won't be spelled out for me.

 

[far-trader]

The only meaningful difference as far as stats is allowing the player to choose where he puts his scores -- you're equally likely to get scores above 10 or scores below 5 in MGT as you are in CT, the difference in the RAW is that if you want to play a Marine you can decide to put your high scores in STR, DEX and END. There's nothing unrealistic about this; corner cases aside, I think you'll find that in real life people tend to gravitate towards careers for which they have an aptitude, and away from careers for which they do not.

Well I don't know many who slavishly apply roll stats in order in CT making this point moot. And even when I do roll stats in order the smart thing to do is sign up for the career that makes the most sense. So if I have high physicals I may go Marine, if I don't I may go Merchant. Equally realistic as your flipside of the process. In fact more realistic in the sense that characters should approach careers where their stats apply. Nothing against the other way, choosing career and making the stats fit, just saying in real life it's more often the other way around, if you want to talk realism

Likewise, my own experience and observation is that in MGT you are slightly but not significantly more likely to end up with a 3 or a 4 in your primary skill (or 2 skills, more rarely) than is the case in CT. You will not end up with half a dozen wildly disparate skills at 4 using the RAW. The real difference is that you will have moderately more level-1 skills, and signficantly more level-0 skills, with MGT chargen.

CT won't give you "half a dozen wildly disparate skills at 4" either, I'm not sure I see the point of that bit. Or is somebody saying MGT gives you lots of high skills?

And in CT your Skill-3 (or 4 or 2 or whatever is highest) is going to be your primary skill too, naturally. If that happens to end up "Vehicle-ATV" instead of "Gun-Gauss Rifle" for your Marine that doesn't make it any less realistic. It just means instead of the killer cool high tech sniper you wanted you got the guy who drives the old tanks. Both work well if the game is properly run.