OTU Only: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way from Collace

[Grav_Moped]

They are available in the OTU circa 1105, Annic Nova and the JTAS 24 Jump space article (thanks whartung ) - they are in the setting that we refer to as the OTU, which covers a lot more than just the Third Imperium.

They are just not available to an Imperial ship yard (or any of the major and minor races we are privy to information about) within the setting as far as we know...

a group travelling beyond the Imperium may happen across the world or worlds where collector tech is common.

It seems we agree, since I made no claim about the entire universe, only the 3I.

The way I see it is that they're available, but nobody ever builds around them because in the long run they're more expensive than conventional drives. This explains why the 3I lets the players keep ANNIC NOVA.

They're worse because MongT/T5 nerfed them with wear rates.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The setting has additional limitations to LBB2, e.g. jump limited by TL. The OTU is quite safe...

Any shipyard in the Imperium can build any ship using the LBB2 system, LBB2 ships have no TL and are not limited by the TL of the shipyard, presumably using potentially imported standard components. In ~1100 the Imperium is limited to TL-15 and J-6. The Zhodani is in general limited to TL-14 and J-5 using roughly the same types of standard drives.

The First Imperium, that presumably used the same LBB2 system, was limited to TL-11 and J-2. In a First Imperium campaign only A-K drives would be available (LBB3).

In effect ships built using the LBB2 system is not limited by the TL of the local shipyard, but the TL of the building civilisation, at least in the OTU.


Other campaign settings may use LBB2 differently. LBB2 is mostly setting agnostic.

OTU (to the extent Marc's novel is canon for OTU) has Jump 6 corvettes (ACS-sized, per Wiki) ships as of 731IE. Yes, it's 3I era not First, but wiki (which might be mistaken) says 3I doesn't reach TL-14 until 250 years later, in year 1000IE. When the protagonist asks about them, it's a logistics question (whether any J6 ships are present) rather than a TL question (have they been invented yet). His previous activation (at least as recorded in the novel) was in 664, which strongly suggests that the 3I had J6 at that time as well.

A usable LBB2 '81 J6 ship can be built using a TL-14 Size T Jump Drive in a 600Td hull. It either needs to have less than 4 weeks pp fuel with a Size T Power plant, or works just fine with a LBB5 TL-14 powerplant. Maneuver Drive can be up to 3G with a Size K drive, or only 1G under LBB2.

LBB5's flat TL cap on Jump (doesn't allow prototype or experimental) would disallow this ship. One could argue that Marc was writing using T5 so TL stage effects were an available option. Still, it's 2 TL higher than average TL for the time, and common enough to be built in quantity (it's a ship of a class) rather than being prototype or experimental.

One could also argue that the LBB2 exceptions to LBB5 are those prototype or experimental ships. It kind of makes sense for Jump Drives, since LBB2 drives are bigger and more expensive than LBB5 Jump Drives.

 

[mike wightman]

The big disconnect here is that GDW never used the rules as written to detail the setting, they did what they mentioned many times in that they interpreted the rules as written for their setting.

Unfortunately they failed to follow their own advice in LBB:0 that changing the ship design rules will impact the setting and should be carefully considered.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The big disconnect here is that GDW never used the rules as written to detail the setting, they did what they mentioned many times in that they interpreted the rules as written for their setting.

Unfortunately they failed to follow their own advice in LBB:0 that changing the ship design rules will impact the setting and should be carefully considered.

Yep. Drop-tanking is an easy workaround for fleet operations where one might wish to Jump into a potential conflict then Jump back out when done (win or lose). It makes large-scope fleet battle games a lot more manageable.

Backporting it into LBB2 ACS ships enables some rather disruptive exploits.

Especially from the TCS/Beltstrike/Gazelle change allowing ships to shortchange their Jump fuel requirements and make it up in drop tanks.

LBB5 design rules had a very different set of priorities from the LBB2 rules. The LBB2 universe was centered on Jump capability. Its space combat rules were such that the only benefit to higher maneuver drive capability was that it allowed the faster side in a battle to select range and choose when (or whether) the engagement would end. LBB5 was centered on space combat and its abstract combat rules made maneuver drive capability a key factor, while Jump capability only really mattered as a way to escape a battle or an arbitrary constraint on a fleet design. Therefore, LBB2 made Jump Drives big and Maneuver Drives small; conversely, LBB5 made Maneuver Drives large and Jump Drives small -- this was a little less disruptive than it might have been since the big cost of Jump is in the space needed for the fuel tanks. Then TCS came along and took away the big cost for Jump by allowing drop tanks to replace internal Jump Fuel tankage. Oops.

 

[aramis]

It seems we agree, since I made no claim about the entire universe, only the 3I.

No, it appears you're ignoring what he said.

The 3I cannot build them, but in 1105, one operable collector drive becomes available. Perhaps more.

This is because the adventures are part of canon for CT. the 3I isn't building them, but if the PC's turn it in for cash to the right people, then the 3I might very well have some by 1116...

 

[Grav_Moped]

No, it appears you're ignoring what he said.

The 3I cannot build them, but in 1105, one operable collector drive becomes available. Perhaps more.

This is because the adventures are part of canon for CT. the 3I isn't building them, but if the PC's turn it in for cash to the right people, then the 3I might very well have some by 1116...

As I've said elsewhere, IMHO the 3I did have them. Nobody would bother using them because they're worse than regular drives, and most people have never seen or heard of them. It's not alien, just impossibly obscure. (Imagine finding an airplane that uses ramjets instead of turbojets or turbofans. Did you just now look up what ramjets are, to make sure your memory was correct?)

My take: part of the collector sail is actually solar panels, and part of the accumulator is a battery bank. There's your power supply, and the reason AN has to recharge near a star. It's otherwise so similar to existing, known Collector tech that Imperial authorities didn't look at it too closely. That's why they missed that the collector sail material is much more durable than usual. And maybe what makes it durable also makes it unable to collect magic particles from deep space fast enough to be useful for crossing rifts.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The way I see it is that they're available, but nobody ever builds around them because in the long run they're more expensive than conventional drives. This explains why the 3I lets the players keep ANNIC NOVA.

The Annic Nova is clearly described as an artefact of unknown origin, that could not be built by an Imperial shipyard.

If Collector technology was a known curiosity, tech specs would be available in the nearest Library app.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

No, it appears you're ignoring what he said.

It seems we are all agreeing it is not a technology that is available to the Imperium and that Imperial shipyards can't built them.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

OTU (to the extent Marc's novel is canon for OTU) has Jump 6 corvettes (ACS-sized, per Wiki) ships as of 731IE.

The big disconnect here is that GDW never used the rules as written to detail the setting, they did what they mentioned many times in that they interpreted the rules as written for their setting.

It seems much of canon is written in complete disregard for the game systems and other canon, hence inconsistencies.

All rule systems, other than LBB2, are pretty insistent that Jump-6 requires TL-15, but I'm not aware of any specific discussion of when the Imperium achieved Jump-5 or Jump-6.

Early Imperial history seems to describe invention of Jump-1, Jump-2, and Jump-3 as pretty distinct events, i.e. Jump-3 prototypes seems to have not been automatically possible at TL-9, or Jump-1 prototypes at TL-6.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The Annic Nova is clearly described as an artefact of unknown origin, that could not be built by an Imperial shipyard.

If Collector technology was a known curiosity, tech specs would be available in the nearest Library app.

Only if the player characters knew to look. High skills in Engineering, Pilot, or a high EDU stat might indicate they'd even heard of it (roll with appropriate DMs).

In the ramjet example, if you didn't know what they were but saw one, you could guess it was some kind of jet engine from context (it's mounted where an engine ought to be mounted). Or you might think it's the engine nacelle with the engine removed.

Consider encountering a WW2 German proposed interceptor Focke Wulf FW-283 {wikipedia article} as a museum display without any signage. (None were actually built, of course.) Now, forget whatever you knew about ramjets. Are the contents of the engine nacelles (maybe you can see the intake cone) really an engine at all, or just dummy parts put in there so it looks like the front of a jet engine?

It's that kind of unfamiliarity that I'm talking about. You could look it up if you knew what it was you were looking up. Or even knew that it wasn't something you already knew about.

 

[aramis]

It seems we are all agreeing it is not a technology that is available to the Imperium and that Imperial shipyards can't built them.

No, Imperial shpyards can build them once they figure them out. Turn one over to the JumpSpace Institute and they're have it figured out in a year or so.

nothing aboard is unfamiliar tech except the collector. It's drives are TL 11 or less. The computer can be loaded with a more The impediment isn't the tech, it's the language. And the OS can be replaced in only a couple weeks...

For example the adventure states clearly that the jump drives are immediately visually able to be assigned the correct drive rating on sight by a skill 1+ engineer.

Another example: all the repairs are doable with only standard starship skills.

And, since the release of T5.0... it's clearly buildable by the imperium. The only reason impies can't rate the build the collectors is simply not knowing the construction... but once they have one, it's buildable by the 3I, as it's just a simple reverse engineer.

Given that there are only two non-standard components, the computer and the collector, and we're given the tonnage of the computer... we can figure out the collector for CT use.
Also note: the collector is the PP, not the JD... so it's viable under Bk2-81 as well as Bk2-77.


It's also worth noting that it's not the only ship of its type. It's hull number 4000019 00024. This implies either ship 24 of class 4000019, ship 4000019 of class 24, or ship number 400001900024 of some polity's total registry. That polity is probably well more than 30 pc away Since the sectors adjacent are all well documented... so the polity in

 

[Grav_Moped]

It seems much of canon is written in complete disregard for the game systems and other canon, hence inconsistencies.

All rule systems, other than LBB2, are pretty insistent that Jump-6 requires TL-15, but I'm not aware of any specific discussion of when the Imperium achieved Jump-5 or Jump-6.

Early Imperial history seems to describe invention of Jump-1, Jump-2, and Jump-3 as pretty distinct events, i.e. Jump-3 prototypes seems to have not been automatically possible at TL-9, or Jump-1 prototypes at TL-6.

LBB5 explicitly did not overrule the TL limits in LBB2.

I can accept that the lower Jns have limits on prototyping. On the other hand, the Solmani figured out J3 relatively quickly once they learned about J2.

 

[Condottiere]

It's a repeatable option now.

Since Collectors thrive on exotic particles, and there appear to be no shortage of them; they also only need one tenth of the volume of the requisite hydrogen tanks they're replacing.

This has immense military implications.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

No, Imperial shpyards can build them once they figure them out.

Yes, once the Imperium figures out how to build Collectors. That might not be so trivial...

When I talk about not available to the Imperium, I specifically talk about Collector technology, not Annic Nova the ship. The rest of Annic Nova is fairly unremarkable, unless the rumours of it having a Hieronymous drive are true...

Turn one over to the JumpSpace Institute and they're have it figured out in a year or so.

I disagree that alien tech is necessarily so easy to figure out. IIRC Black Globes took many years and massive research to figure out how to build, despite having many working examples to study.

nothing aboard is unfamiliar tech except the collector.

Agreed, everything else is close enough to be substituted by standard Imperial components, but the Collector is not, it's completely alien.

And, since the release of T5.0... it's clearly buildable by the imperium.

Not everything in the design system is necessarily available to the Imperium setting.

Have the Imperium had prototype Hop drives for centuries? Prototype J-8 drives? Why would Imperial shipyards bother with inefficient M-drives if cheaper and better Dean drives were available?

MgT High Guard includes e.g. Hyperdrives, Warp drives, and Time drives, are those also build-able by the Imperium? If so, why would anyone bother with pedestrian Jump drives?


Maybe Collectors are available in the Galaxiad setting, after remnants of the Imperium have discovered/reverse engineered/learnt about them, but not in the 1100 era?

It's also worth noting that it's not the only ship of its type.

Agreed, obviously someone knows how to build them. That someone is probably not known by the Imperium, or at least keeps its tech base hidden.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

LBB5 explicitly did not overrule the TL limits in LBB2.

Agreed, but the setting story does overrule LBB2. E.g. the Interstellar Wars clearly limits available jump level to both the Vilani and the Terrans.

On the other hand, the Solmani figured out J3 relatively quickly once they learned about J2.

It took them well over a century, fast by Imperial standards, but hardly by Terran standards. It took them (us?) less than 50 years from J-1 to J-2.

 

[mike wightman]

The Terrans had plenty of opportunity to reverse engineer Vilani tech - hence the rapid rise from TL9 to TL11.

During interwar periods Terran traders bought and sold stuff within Imperial space, Terran students, diplomats and the like visited Imperial worlds and learned from them too.

The Vilani had a considerable knowledge of TL12+, they just kept it secret. It wouldn't take much for Terran spooks to get wind of the secret knowledge repositories and then organise a data extraction mission or two.

The Terrans have no qualms about making the leap from TL11 to TL12 using a combination of original research and knowledge stolen from the Vilani repositories.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I've solved the XBoat problem for LBB2 '81:

Replace part of the "extensive data banks" with a Size B Powerplant.

The XBoat has enough fuel for the powerplant. Four weeks worth, even!

What it doesn't have is fuel for the Jump Drive. That's supplied by the XBoat Tender as though from Drop Tanks.

(That, or they've been using drop tanks all along and never mentioned it.)

 

[boomslang]

I've solved the XBoat problem for LBB2 '81:

Replace part of the "extensive data banks" with a Size B Powerplant.

The XBoat has enough fuel for the powerplant. Four weeks worth, even!

What it doesn't have is fuel for the Jump Drive. That's supplied by the XBoat Tender as though from Drop Tanks.

I have always liked this solution, as it justifies the existence of the otherwise-overbuilt XTs.

It is a simple matter to fit both hulls (the X and the XT) with Drop Tank fittings, and 1G is more than enough to move the XT out to its own 100-diameter limit quickly enough for the X to make a clean Jump once it is charged up and ready.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I have always liked this solution, as it justifies the existence of the otherwise-overbuilt XTs.

It is a simple matter to fit both hulls (the X and the XT) with Drop Tank fittings, and 1G is more than enough to move the XT out to its own 100-diameter limit quickly enough for the X to make a clean Jump once it is charged up and ready.

It's a clean solution.

It also raises the question of why it's never been used by anyone else for regular operations.

Clearly it's safe enough for thousands of XBoats every day. Or... maybe that's what's been killing off all those Scouts during character generation?

 

[boomslang]

It's a clean solution.

It also raises the question of why it's never been used by anyone else for regular operations.

Clearly it's safe enough for thousands of XBoats every day. Or... maybe that's what's been killing off all those Scouts during character generation?

There is nothing explicit in canon (or otherwise) about using the mechanics of Drop Tanks to operate a Jump Mothership or Jump Tender in this way, probably because Drop Tanks themselves are by design expendable, and no one ever considers other applications.

I have, for example, at least one unstreamlined B2 starship operating as a fighter carrier that has its fuel shuttle fitted with Drop Tank couplings so that the shuttle's tankage becomes part of the starship's hard tankage when the shuttle is berthed; this allows for a full load of Jump fuel to be available despite the fact that the starship's internal tanks are several dtons shy in and of themselves.