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Absolutely dead or just mostly dead?

I think the band it creates is too narrow. Someone whose windpipe is blocked is not as badly off as someone whose heart has stopped and he in turn is not as badly off as someone whose heart is stopped AND damaged. Also, I have the impression that some trauma cases are easier to save than others.

Hans
I would think that most recoverable trauma falls in the "two attributes reduced to zero" range, where recovery without first aid is not possible, but death is easily avoidable.

Clinically dead, but relivable seems like a pretty rare outcome for a gunfight, a sword fight or a RPG explosion ... the most common source of injuries in my Traveller experience.
 
I would think that most recoverable trauma falls in the "two attributes reduced to zero" range, where recovery without first aid is not possible, but death is easily avoidable.
But the two attributes reduced to zero allows you to linger for days (depending on how high the third attribute is), so that's not anything like blocked windpipe or stopped heart.

Clinically dead, but relivable seems like a pretty rare outcome for a gunfight, a sword fight or a RPG explosion ... the most common source of injuries in my Traveller experience.
Any death that doesn't destroy the brain outright would be something you can potentially recover from. Not, perhaps, with TL7 medical technology, but as long as you can prevent damage to the brain cells, any society that can grow new tissue should have a good shot.

Note the examples I brought up in an earlier post. In Procrustes we have someone who is beheaded and has the head placed in an autodoc have his whole body regrown/rebuilt under him. He does have memory loss of the events leading up to the decapitation, but apart from that he's fine. In Schlock Mercenary they can regrow a body under a head AND keep the head concious while doing so!

Hans
 
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How about this: an implanted chip that records all your experiences and basically serves as brain augment and backup. The chip is presumably very tough, so if your brain is destroyed but the chip survives, you can be restored with your personality intact.

The chip in fact becomes part of your brain, so it's like losing a head when you have two.
 
MgT allows a brain to be installed in a robot, MT allowed a head to be transplanted to a robot body (see the Knightfall adventure).

I guess both cases are with surgically (not traumatic) removal of the brain/head.

Providing you can get a severed head into 'cryo' within 5 mins there is still enough oxygen in the tissues to prevent cell death.

Get the head into cryo and get it to a high TL medical facility. You have a couple of choices, clone a new body - engineered to be without a brain - grow a synthetic biological body, or install in a machine body.

Keep the head in storage until you are ready for the reattachment procedure - maybe a brain only transplant is a better idea - and then 'defrost'. Arterial shunts will allow oxygenated artificial blood to keep the brain alive until the transplant/attachment is complete.

I'd introduce it at TL10+, by TL15 it should be trivial. Which opens up a rather obvious life prolonging procedure for the rich...

In any case, in former versions (CT/MT at least) brain trasplant is TL16. I'm not sure about MgT (if it has a tech table like MT:RC page 28-29 I'm not awae of it).
 
How about this: an implanted chip that records all your experiences and basically serves as brain augment and backup. The chip is presumably very tough, so if your brain is destroyed but the chip survives, you can be restored with your personality intact.

The chip in fact becomes part of your brain, so it's like losing a head when you have two.

Have you been reading the Battle Angel Alita Last Order series?
 
Instead of using a hit point system, on could use a wound system,

Roll damage and apply armor normally, then compare any remaining damage to th sum o STR, DEX and END.

Damage Wound Level
<3 points Scratch
<1/3 sum Wound
<2/3 sum Severe Wound
<sum Near Death
>Sum Dying
> 2xsum Dead

Except for scratches, suffering a new wound while injured increase the severity of the current wound level by one.

This would require changes in how haling words (since characteristic points are no longer lost from damage, healing wouldn't restore them).
 
But the two attributes reduced to zero allows you to linger for days (depending on how high the third attribute is), so that's not anything like blocked windpipe or stopped heart.
Yes it does allow it, but that is not the only option.

I think some people are still missing putting some rules together because issues like not breathing or blocked windpipe keep coming up.

I suggest reading page 142 Suffocation.

I do not believe that when something is not specifically covered by the rules, like bleeding out, that extrapolating from the rules, like suffocation and other rules that can continue to cause damage, and role playing whatever situation one can imagine breaks the RAW.

possible hit locations like arm, head, chest, and each can be broken down further like leg can be foot, calf, knee, thigh, hip... Chest: what possible organs were hit, how damaged are they... was damage done to muscles, tendons, scrapes, cuts, burns, bones (there are over 26 bones to roll for if the hit was to a foot - don't forget to roll to determining if it was the right foot or left), amount of blood loss, heart stopping, lung puncture, kidney failure, shock... combinations like compound fractures, broken ribs puncturing a lung... was damage caused by a blunt weapon, a projectile, an explosion, an energy weapon, a sharp edged weapon and a slash, a sharp pointed weapon and a thrust... Now for all those possible variations, what are the rules for continued deterioration with no medical aid, how effective is first aid, what can be repaired by surgery, what just needs time to heal... how long is surgery - because surgery for one condition could take minutes while the surgery for something else may take hours or even multiple surgeries over days... what is the difficulty of the first aid or surgery for all the different variations because some things are easier to treat than others... how does the TL of the medical facility effect all the variations... does differences between the air pressure on different worlds effect things? how about differences in gravity?

Personally I feel this level of detail is fine in a computer game where it is all done instantly but when a GM is required to spend several minutes after every PC and NPC gets hit flipping through books and rolling on a series of tables to determine exactly what every point of damage is based on hundreds, thousands, possibly millions of possibilities... I think that detracts from the story and role playing.
 
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Yes it does allow it, but that is not the only option.
So? The fact that it is an option shows that it does not cover those kind of situations..

I think some people are still missing putting some rules together because issues like not breathing or blocked windpipe keep coming up.

I suggest reading page 142 Suffocation.
It says nothing about preventing people from dying of suffocation.

possible hit locations like arm, head, chest, and each can be broken down further like leg can be foot, calf, knee, thigh, hip... Chest: what possible organs were hit, how damaged are they... was damage done to muscles, tendons, scrapes, cuts, burns, bones (there are over 26 bones to roll for if the hit was to a foot - don't forget to roll to determining if it was the right foot or left), amount of blood loss, heart stopping, lung puncture, kidney failure, shock... combinations like compound fractures, broken ribs puncturing a lung... was damage caused by a blunt weapon, a projectile, an explosion, an energy weapon, a sharp edged weapon and a slash, a sharp pointed weapon and a thrust... Now for all those possible variations, what are the rules for continued deterioration with no medical aid, how effective is first aid, what can be repaired by surgery, what just needs time to heal... how long is surgery - because surgery for one condition could take minutes while the surgery for something else may take hours or even multiple surgeries over days... what is the difficulty of the first aid or surgery for all the different variations because some things are easier to treat than others... how does the TL of the medical facility effect all the variations... does differences between the air pressure on different worlds effect things? how about differences in gravity?
First of all, it's not an either/or question, either make do with the rules already provided or make up a hugely complicated set of supplementary rules. The ones I've suggested seems pretty simple and straightforward.

Secondly, if you really do want simplicity, I think that for an Science Fiction RPG the obvious default simplification is: Can the dead person be brought under medical treatment (or suspended animation) in 60 minutes or less? If yes, he'll survive; no need to roll up a new character. If no, he's dead; roll up a new character.

Personally, I'd like a few more nuances to the possible ramifications, but if the alternative is "he's dead", I prefer the abovementioned version; it seems more science fictiony to me. And it's simple enough that it should satisfy anyone.
Personally I feel this level of detail is fine in a computer game where it is all done instantly but when a GM is required to spend several minutes after every PC and NPC gets hit flipping through books and rolling on a series of tables to determine exactly what every point of damage is based on hundreds, thousands, possibly millions of possibilities... I think that detracts from the story and role playing.
That's why a set of simple, explicit rules covering clinical death would be a lot better than having to piece together an answer by flipping through books and rolling on a series of tables.


Hans
 
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Secondly, if you really do want simplicity, I think that for an Science Fiction RPG the obvious default simplification is: Can the dead person be brought under medical treatment (or suspended animation) in 60 minutes or less? If yes, he'll survive; no need to roll up a new character. If no, he's dead; roll up a new character.

Personally, I'd like a few more nuances to the possible ramifications, but if the alternative is "he's dead", I prefer the abovementioned version; it seems more science fictiony to me. And it's simple enough that it should satisfy anyone.
I believe the rules are designed to allow people to play the game they want and I look at it as "is there anything that says I can't do this?". I can see things in the rules that let me do everything you have postulated via role playing. To me, you seam to have the perspective of "where do the rules say you can do that?"

If you have any specific questions, I'll still do my best to help but I think I'll hold off on commenting on things that have been gone over multiple times. Whatever the issue, sorry I am inadequate in translating my interpretation of the rules into English that you can understand so that you can role play what you'd like.
 
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What lengths? All I'm proposing is to give characters a chance to survive being shot, stabbed, mauled, or mutilated IF conditions are favorable and the proper measures taken. Comparing that to giving all player characters blanket plot immunity is wildly exaggerated.
Hans

Hans,

I think you need to take into account the cost of medical care, there is no NHS in Traveller. In Mercenary it emphasises that Medical Care is expensive.

Kind Regards

David
 
I think you need to take into account the cost of medical care, there is no NHS in Traveller. In Mercenary it emphasises that Medical Care is expensive.


That is an entirely separate issue. The point Hans is hashing out is what constitutes "irrecoverably dead" vs. "going to die w/o immediate medical attention". In other words, at what point is there still the possibility of saving a gravely wounded character, and at what point does it become a lost cause. And how does medical attention (and to what necessary degree and TL) play a part in the determination.

It may be true that medical care is expensive, but that is not the question on the table.
 
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Hans,

I think you need to take into account the cost of medical care, there is no NHS in Traveller. In Mercenary it emphasises that Medical Care is expensive.

Kind Regards

David

That is contradictory with this quote (at least at TL 15):

and
At TL 15 medical treatment becomes economical
enough to bring its benefits to even the poorest
disenfranchised among the population
, who an
be cured and healed of almost anything except
death itself.

(underlining is mine)
 
Cha Ching$$$$$$

When I saw the opening question my thought was, "Do I need a plot devise to rid this group of excess credits?"

After months of expensive medical care, and the permanent loss of some statistics, I could see a group of PC's in desperate need of a patron wheel their friend into an ADA compliant spaceport bar...
------------------------

Unrelated to that thought, I've been reading the new Ubiquity version of Space 1889, and I like their pulp oriented rules for dying. I've got to go read it carefully in light of this discussion. The jist is that when you reach zero you are dying, and damage is added each round through the dying process you are stabilized or reach death at -5.
 
It may be true that medical care is expensive, but that is not the question on the table.
No, but it's an interesting corrolary. What would it cost?

* Rushed to the hospital. Cr??

* Dumped into low berth at arrival. Cr??
* Rent of low berth, monthly. Cr??

* Repaired and revived. Cr???

(Presumably depends on the severity of the wounds:
* Repairs an average task. Cr???
* Repairs a difficult task. Cr???
* Repairs a formidable task. Cr???)

* Recovery treatment. Cr??/week.

* New body cloned/grown/printed. Cr???? (I'm not sure what TL this would be).
* Brain transplant into new body. Cr????

* Basic medical insurance (Covers being rushed to hospital and being lowberthed plus first 3 months of low berth rent). Cr??/year.
* Extensive medical insurance (Covers repair and revival and recovery). Cr???/year
* Full medical insurance. (Covers everything). Cr????/year.

Before I try to fill in the amounts, are there any figures in the MgT rules that could give some benchmarks?


Hans
 
IIRC there was a TD where this (both TLs and costs) was covered for MT, if that can be of any help...

ITTR that, again in MT, cloning (for regrowing limbs) was TL 13, brain trasplant TL 16 and revival of otherways dead character was TL 13 too.

See that many availability TLs change from MT to MgT, though...
 
Before I try to fill in the amounts, are there any figures in the MgT rules that could give some benchmarks?


From the MgT Core Rules:
(Note that the info on p.37 is for CharGen, but might be adaptable to general situations)
Medical Bills (CharGen): p.37
Medical Care & Treatment/Procedures: p.75
Medical Care (w/ Costs): p.37, 94 *
Medical Medical Cryoberths & Medikits: p.92
Medicinal Drugs: p.93-94
* - from p.94:

Medical Care

Healing: An injured character who needs hospital care for a prolonged period (see Injury and Recovery on page 74) will pay approximately 100 credits per month per Technology Level. (At TL 11+ the doctors will just use medicinal slow in most cases and charge for that instead.) Surgery costs 1d6 x 50 x Technology Level in Credits.

Replacements
: A character whose injuries require cloning limbs or cybernetic replacement must pay 5,000 credits per Characteristic point.
 
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So no-one liked my entry on the Rules As Written (which WAS the original question)? ;-) ;-)

OK, if you now want to move beyond this and discuss whether they are a good simulation, or good for the game, or good for your game in particular, that's fine.

I've never used the RAW. My take is that once you're at triple-0, you can drop to minus your Endurance, by one point per round. Hans, this could be your "X" number. (With negative HP shamelessly stolen from AD&D, mind you.) Any successful First Aid halts this drop, and may even bring you back depending on how well the medic rolls. Hell, I'll even allow this if someone just bungs on a high-tech medikit.

(BTW, Menelvagor Inc does a nice line in imported medikits; a mere Cr30,000 for the TL 15 version. Drop us a line via X-Boat.) ;-) ;-)
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/menelvag/medikit.pdf

McPerth mentioned "a few minutes after death" which is what Hans seemed to be saying his players were arguing, 'way back at the start of this thread. I think the MgT version of First Aid mirrors this "initial 15 min period" quite adequately. If you really want something more detailed, either look up the advanced medical rules from one of the old Digest magazines (sounds very much like the Signs and Portents article), or scrounge around the 'Net (maybe on Freelance Trav?) for Robert O'Connor's rules. (He's a medico by profession.)

Just take the red shirt off before attempting any healing. (I've actually heard of that rule being enforced in a freeform 'Trek convention game!) ;-)
 
That is an entirely separate issue. The point Hans is hashing out is what constitutes "irrecoverably dead" vs. "going to die w/o immediate medical attention". In other words, at what point is there still the possibility of saving a gravely wounded character, and at what point does it become a lost cause. And how does medical attention (and to what necessary degree and TL) play a part in the determination.

It may be true that medical care is expensive, but that is not the question on the table.

I understood the point that Hans was raising, but the question is moot if the travellers can't raise the fees. I had a vision of them making the 999 call an the medical service asking for x million credits up front for a full body replacement...

Kind Regards

David
 
I understood the point that Hans was raising, but the question is moot if the travellers can't raise the fees. I had a vision of them making the 999 call an the medical service asking for x million credits up front for a full body replacement...

Kind Regards

David

Or waking to an indenture of same magnitude
 
So let's move away from the extreme cases and towards something a little more common in Traveller.
What if the character was shot twice by a shotgun and reduced to 000777?
There is no Classic Traveller hit location in the core rules, but I think that it is safe to assume that he was probably not shot twice in the thumb and bled out. Statistically, a shot to the center of mass is more likely than a head shot.
So for the sake of argument, let's call it a shot to the chest and arm and a second shot to the belly and leg (this is a shotgun after all).

The group's well equipped Medic-0 immediately administers Fast Drug slowing the victim's metabolism to 1/60 normal. The 4 minutes for brain death, now requires 4 hours. The trip by air raft from the Starport bar to the nearest hospital will require 10 minutes ... Leaving 3 hours and 50 minutes for the hospital to provide suffient artificial life support to prevent brain death.

At a fairly low TL, MegaTraveller will allow organ transplants and artificial organs. By average imperial TL they can regrow biological organs and limbs. So IMhO, this more typical character has an above average chance of avoiding brain death and making a full recovery.

I suppose that my position is that with first aid, much is possible, and without first aid, totally dead is a likely result.

I figured I had signed out here, but my daughter was home tonight from college, and had her nursing clinical before coming home. She was a tad upset. Right after arriving at the hospital ward where the clinical was being done, one of the patients coded. I am not going into all of the details, but it got me thinking about this post again.

The character stats are given as 000777, with shotgun wounds to the chest, arm, stomach and leg. You may stop external bleeding in the arm and leg, but you are going to have internal bleeding in the chest and stomach area that you are not going to stop. That is the first problem.

Second, presumably, the character's heart has stopped beating. For the shot of Fast Drug to work, it has to circulate through the body. No heart pumping, no circulation. Based on my reading of World War 2 accounts, one way of telling a man was dead was when he was given a shot of morphine for pain, the shot made a hard lump under the skin, as the morphine did not go anywhere because of no blood circulation. So, how is the Fast Drug gong to work?

Third, you have uncontrolled internal bleeding in the chest and stomach areas, but especially the chest. How much of the Fast Drug, assuming that by artificial efforts you force the heart to pump, leaks out into the chest. Remember, blood goes through the heart, through the lungs, then back through the heart, before going to other parts of the body.

Fourth, you have multiple holes from shotgun pellets in the lungs, so the leaking blood is flooding the lung area, blocking oxygen absorption. How much of this can the lungs take before insufficient oxygen is being absorbed to survive.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the character wounded in the manner described is DEAD.
 
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