Ageing by Tech Level

[kilemall]

What makes you think that SOC has an enforced economic factor tied to it?

Well far as RAW goes both MgTs have it, with living ‘below your station’ putting SOC level at risk.

Beyond that common sense- even if you had a non-market money system in play, SOC would indicate rank and value to that society and thus better medical, environmental and dietary inputs.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The Feudal nature of the Imperium demands it. They aren't just Governors of land, Nobility are Rulers and are considered owners as they get higher up in rank. The Duke of Regina owns Regina as far as the Imperium thinks. Unless removed by a higher Noble, like the Emperor.

Unless I've understood this wrong all these years.

IIRC, only SOC A+ are Imperials (if not originally, then elevated to that); at SOC A the job description (in the context of Imperial governance) varies on a case-by-case basis from "planetary ruler" to "Imperial liaison to the planetary government" (in both cases, of a world not significant enough to have voting rights in the Moot). SOC 9- is planetary-level only.

At least on the periphery, the Imperium doesn't rule worlds directly (for the most part). The main areas of Imperial control are trade policy and joint military policy against threats to the Imperium -- the rest is left up to member worlds.

 

[Condottiere]

I always thought that social status factor Alpha is basically the Imperials coopting the local relatively really rich and/or social influencers.

 

[McPerth]

If you can afford it...

Even if you cannot afford the best medical attention, I guess even the cheapest one at TL 15 is better than the most expensive one at TL4.

The life expectancy has increased by many years along XX century (from TL 5 to 8), while the wealth distribution not so much...

The Feudal nature of the Imperium demands it. They aren't just Governors of land, Nobility are Rulers and are considered owners as they get higher up in rank. The Duke of Regina owns Regina as far as the Imperium thinks. Unless removed by a higher Noble, like the Emperor.

Not necessarly...

In middle ages Europe (feudal society) there were many a noble who was quite poor, whie many people in cities, despite being lower SOC, had quite more access to wealth and medical services...

The most wealthy were probably the jews, whose SOC would be quite low...

 

[McPerth]

IRC, only SOC A+ are Imperials

Where do you take this from?

IIRC, as per Cleon I declaratoin Every Sentient live being in the Imperium is an Imperial Citizen

Of course, the high authonomy the planetary governments have makes this quite void in practice,, but I guess this depends more on where do you live and the life you take than on SOC.

I guess a knight (SOC B) that never leaves his planet would feel less an Imperial Citizen than a free trader (or a IN crewman, or an IISS member) with SOC 4, as the former is rarely affected by Imperial Laws, while the latter is nearly always...

 

[mike wightman]

This is possibly my favourite quote indicating the dystopian lives of "Imperial citizens" on all those high population, high law level, repressive government, high technology worlds:

Since virtually no amount of money will entice an individual to leave his home and livelihood for the bleak desolation of a colony world, the Ministry of Colonization has established several programs to produce colonists. Most obvious is the colonize in lieu of prison term program. However, several other programs have also shown signs of success. In the unemployment insurance program, high population worlds have successfully used the colonization project as a means of reducing unemployment over the long term. In a similar medical insurance program, indigents unable to obtain medical treatment are provided with their needs in exchange for signing on to a colony. The needs of a colony for skills are met through the anagathics program; qualified (and aged) individuals can be provided with anagathics to extend their life spans in return for their providing such skills as administration, mechanical crafts, or medical expertise. Finally land grants to retiring veterans has provided a cadre for the new colony's military and police forces.

Does that sound like a polity that provides high quality health care for free to the masses?

 

[whulorigan]

This is possibly my favourite quote indicating the dystopian lives of "Imperial citizens" on all those high population, high law level, repressive government, high technology worlds:

Mike, where is that quoted from?

 

[McPerth]

ITTR is about the Boughene colonization proogram in the Spinward Marches

 

[mike wightman]

It's the Forboldn colonisation effort mentioned in A:1 Kinunir Library Data; slightly changes a lot of people's preconceived ideas about the Imperium when they read that...

 

[McPerth]

Yes, I failed about the planet to be colonized (that happens when you trust your memory too much)

Nonetheless, I don't remember this changing my view of the Imperial citizenship. Afer all, none but the prisoneers were forced to leave, only incentivated (albeit probably quite hardly sometimes).

 

[mike wightman]

Not just the criminals are incentivised, the unemployed and those needing medical treatment also have 'nothing to lose and everything to gain' by signing up.. Does not strike me as a society caring for its lower Soc strata.

Add that to the lack of due process (imprisonment without charge or trial), the corruption of the Regina subsector government (Norris authorises the kidnapping, imprisonment and the fabrication of a cover story), the unrest among the 'Spinward natives', blatant racism (major/minor race labels, racist language used towards alien races) and all of a sudden the Imperium is nothing more than an authoritarian dystopia for the vast majority.

This image has been gradually retconned over the years - or has it

 

[McPerth]

Well, as I understand the quote (though I admit is not clear then) the prisoners are not incentivated, but probably forced, while the rest are incentivated. Neither talks it about those prisoners being without trail or kidnapped...

Prisoners without trial are mentioned in A:1, though, but we also must remeber this is prior to 3I (as Traveller, not in its chronology), and so it's not really 3I. In 3I it would be difficult to have prioner (with or without trial) an Imperial Senator, mostly because there's no Imperial Senate for this Senator to be ....

This doesn't void your main point, though: 3I is a dystopia, and most of its citizens live under opresive governments. And you need only look at the UWPs to see it, or even to the World creation rules, as HiPop worlds (that even if represent a small part of the worlds, they represent the vast majority of citizens) cannot be democracies (at most, part of them may, if it is balcanized), being governed mostly by autocrats, burocracies or oligarchies.

But even under those governments, that can be more or less benevolent and may care or not for their citizens, high TL is likely to have improved life expectancy and improved life conditions, if only because they are more likely to have vaccining programs (that don't work if only a minority is vaccined), better hygiene and sanitation, and all those unsung heroes that are the main responsibles of the increased life expectancy (and even in good health). Even current poor people in places where the governments have little care for them, they have (barring violent death) higher life expectative than a medieval, or even latter Duke.

In this way, it's also interesting the T4 main book sidebar called What is poverty at TL12 (page 64), where it's told how a poor at TL12 has better life conditions than a middle class at TL6...

 

[Condottiere]

Transportation of convicted criminals, and debt bondage.

 

[whartung]

The issue is that SOC measures a single hierarchy. A contrived example of a wealthy mob boss may have nothing to do with the noble class, and thus have a low SOC, but plenty of money.

While high SOC implies wealth, I don't think the corollary is necessarily true.
\

 

[Grav_Moped]

Where do you take this from?

IIRC, as per Cleon I declaratoin Every Sentient live being in the Imperium is an Imperial Citizen

Of course, the high authonomy the planetary governments have makes this quite void in practice,, but I guess this depends more on where do you live and the life you take than on SOC.

I guess a knight (SOC B) that never leaves his planet would feel less an Imperial Citizen than a free trader (or a IN crewman, or an IISS member) with SOC 4, as the former is rarely affected by Imperial Laws, while the latter is nearly always...

SOC A (and above) is the point at which an individual is part of the Imperial Nobility "in-group" and can be assumed to benefit from its interstellar institutions (cultural, social, and in this case, medical). Below that, one may or may not get such support.

But yes, everyone on an Imperial member world is nominally an Imperial Citizen. It's the basis for taxation and manpower requisition (military draft).

 

[Grav_Moped]

But yes, everyone on an Imperial member world is nominally an Imperial Citizen. It's the basis for taxation and manpower requisition (military draft).

Though that raises a question: Are people on a balkanized world who aren't citizens of the Imperial-aligned State (that is, that are citizens of (one of) the other State(s)) not Imperial citizens, or are they Imperial Citizens in rebellion?

I'm thinking of Feri/Regina (SM2005) in particular here. Peaceable balkanized worlds might not have this issue.

 

[Spinward Scout]

In a similar medical insurance program, indigents unable to obtain medical treatment are provided with their needs in exchange for signing on to a colony. The needs of a colony for skills are met through the anagathics program; qualified (and aged) individuals can be provided with anagathics to extend their life spans in return for their providing such skills as administration, mechanical crafts, or medical expertise. Finally land grants to retiring veterans has provided a cadre for the new colony's military and police forces.?

I wonder if that could be incorporated into Life Events and Mishaps in MgT2.

If you get an injury, you don't have to pay/owe, but you have to end your current Career and take Colonist as a new Career and get Anagathics for free for that term.

I'd take that.

And Land as a Mustering Out benefit would be great. Plus retinue and housekeepers, etc...

 

[aramis]

Even if you cannot afford the best medical attention, I guess even the cheapest one at TL 15 is better than the most expensive one at TL4.

The life expectancy has increased by many years along XX century (from TL 5 to 8), while the wealth distribution not so much...

Except that, in the real world, it really wasn't raising due to reducing age effects. The age of death from age-related disfunction has always been in the 70-120 range. It's pandemics and wars that have been reduced in lethality. Many wound that would have been merely cauterized in 1400 would be cleaned in 1850... and tourniquets made huge improvements in battle survival well before surgery was a safe proposition. Further, increases in force multipliers reduced willingness to fight somewhat - fewer wars, the rise of international law, the sheer bloody brutality if the USCW, the Boer War, The Crimean War, and WW I really did a damper on war - but not because of the military being unwilling... the photographers made a big one... when the news prints post battle photos, the horrors of war became more evident.

THe US infant mortality rate (to age 5)¹ was about 46% in 1800. 40% in 1850, 26% in 1900, 18% in 1915, 19% in 1920 ("Spanish Flu"), 10% in 1950, and under 1% at present, even with the pandemic.

A lot of the deaths that aren't happening are due to fewer teens and twenties dying at war, and fewer dying of now treatable diseases & disorders. But no one's been recorded past 120 - the documented record is currently 118. A few individuals are documented to have been considered adults for over 90 years but unable to prove their birth, having been estimated to about 115-125... It's the 4th and 5th score that are problematic for the more serious age related diseases. Several of those were Chinese nationals whose village records were destroyed during the Japanese invasions between WW I and WW II

Essentially, the change in demographics is due to reducing the Survival target number, not reducing aging effects.

There is a not-yet-peer-reviewed study showing a link between Metformin and reduced telomere loss... but it's not a huge factor according to the synopsis i've heard of it.



1: https://www.statista.com/statistics... mortality rate in,it to their fifth birthday.
2: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TO65.MA.ZS

 

[Condottiere]

Lack of birth certificates also goes the other way, in that age is over estimated.

I think we're at the stage where the aging effects are delayed, and/or temporarily neutralized.

The next stage would be where there is direct genetic intervention.

 

[whulorigan]

I wonder if that could be incorporated into Life Events and Mishaps in MgT2.

If you get an injury, you don't have to pay/owe, but you have to end your current Career and take Colonist as a new Career and get Anagathics for free for that term.

I'd take that.

And Land as a Mustering Out benefit would be great. Plus retinue and housekeepers, etc...

I also think another way to incorporate it would be thru the Draft. In MgT, "Agent (Law Enforcement)" replaced the old "Other" Career from CT-LBB2 as the final draft result on the d6 roll. I have never been happy with the idea of being "drafted" into the "Law Enforcement" career. I rather like the idea of replacing "Agent" with "Citizen" for the draft roll (with the stipulation that you must take either Worker or Colonist as the career specialization). This then represents either:

1. Being enlisted in one of the Imperium's (or local world's) "make-work" programs for the labor-force, or
2. The Imperial Ministry of Colonization program as described above (" . . . if you cant qualify for other work, we have just the thing for you . . . ")