Ageing by Tech Level

[Spinward Flow]

SOC A (and above) is the point at which an individual is part of the Imperial Nobility "in-group" and can be assumed to benefit from its interstellar institutions (cultural, social, and in this case, medical).

My understanding is that Social A amounts to "planetary nobility" of the this family is a bunch of nobles on a planetary scale where they're the biggest fish in the "small pool" of a single world. Once you get to Social B+ is when you start getting interstellar on your nobility.

The actual Noble career path is what puts people/characters "in post" as Imperial Nobles responsible for worlds ... but not immediately. First you have to earn Position (per LBB S4, and not guaranteed) and THAT is what puts your character "in post" as an Imperial Noble with world-wide responsibilities.

Kind of like how if you roll up an Imperial Navy character and they make Admiral, if they're given Command assignments as an Admiral they're going to be commanding an Imperial Fleet (somewhere). Same deal for the Noble career ... except that you need to earn Position first. If you're Social A-B this means that your character becomes the Knight of {fill in the blank} world (and for Social A is an automatic promotion to Social B as a Knight). At Social C you become Baron of {fill in the blank} world ... and so on.

Pretty much every Imperial mainworld has a Knight of {fill in the blank} assigned to it.
Barons get assigned to Agricultural or Rich worlds.
Marquis get assigned to pre-Industrial worlds.
Counts get assigned to Industrial worlds with a county of sub-worlds below the subsector governing level.
Dukes get assigned to subsector capitals, with one of them rising to the level of Sector Duke (in a first among equals kind of way).
Archdukes have responsibilities for entire Domains (multi-sector).

Beyond that you get into the imperial family (prince/princess, emperor/empress).

I always figured that the extreme difficulty of getting promoted in the Noble career was largely due to the fact that as you climb the (social) ladder, there are fewer and fewer "open posts" for your character to fill, so there is most definitely a "winnowing of the chaff" going on in terms of limited opportunities for advancement. It's basically a case of roll 12 on 2D (+1 DM if Intelligence A+) in order to get promoted to the next rank. Any promotion above Social C will typically involve moving to a new world(!). You can go from Knight to Baron on the same world, but probably won't get to "stay put" if promoted from Baron to Marquis while in the Noble career.

 

[Condottiere]

If an Imperial barony is a single major world, a march presumably a cluster of systems, and a county maybe a quarter of a subsector, if the Imperium is going for efficiency.

 

[whulorigan]

My understanding is that Social A amounts to "planetary nobility" of the this family is a bunch of nobles on a planetary scale where they're the biggest fish in the "small pool" of a single world. Once you get to Social B+ is when you start getting interstellar on your nobility.

Actually, you can make the case that Soc 9 includes lesser (planetary/local) gentry and aristocracy (Lower Upper Class) that is not recognized at the Imperial level. Soc 9 has been defined elsewhere as Lower Upper Class.

• Soc A represents those who have significant enough standing to be recognized by the Imperium in their Social circles, and likely overlaps with planetary/local Middle/Upper Upper Class;
• Social B+ can still include people who wear "two-hats" as both planetary/local Upper Class (and/or rulers) on the one hand, and Imperial Nobility who have far more prestigious positions on the other.

Kind of like how if you roll up an Imperial Navy character and they make Admiral, if they're given Command assignments as an Admiral they're going to be commanding an Imperial Fleet (somewhere). Same deal for the Noble career ... except that you need to earn Position first. If you're Social A-B this means that your character becomes the Knight of {fill in the blank} world (and for Social A is an automatic promotion to Social B as a Knight). At Social C you become Baron of {fill in the blank} world ... and so on.

Yes. An Imperial title of nobility does not automatically mean that you fulfill some governmental role of authority. It is a social distinction that qualifies you to hold certain posts in Imperial government and administration.

Pretty much every Imperial mainworld has a Knight of {fill in the blank} assigned to it.
Barons get assigned to Agricultural or Rich worlds.
Marquis get assigned to pre-Industrial worlds.
Counts get assigned to Industrial worlds with a county of sub-worlds below the subsector governing level.
Dukes get assigned to subsector capitals, with one of them rising to the level of Sector Duke (in a first among equals kind of way).
Archdukes have responsibilities for entire Domains (multi-sector).

Interstellar government begins at the Subsector level.

Based on the current model for Imperial Nobility - For (proper) Landed Nobles (i.e. those who have been assigned to a world with official Imperial responsibilities):

• Every Imperial mainworld has a Knight assigned to it (unless it is barren, a dieback, or a Red-zone).
• Barons usually get assigned to Agricultural or Rich worlds.
• Marquises usually get assigned to pre-Industrial worlds.
• Viscounts usually get assigned to pre-High-Population worlds.
• Counts usually get assigned to Industrial OR High-Population worlds.
• Dukes get assigned to an Important World.
• (Greater) Dukes get assigned to subsector capitals, with one of them rising to the level of Sector Duke (in a first among equals kind of way).
• Archdukes have responsibilities for entire Domains (multi-sector).

There are no multi-world Imperial governing districts below the subsector level. (Though a given noble may certainly have lesser subsidiary titles on other worlds and associated responsibilities associated with those worlds).

A Noble may be "associated" with various worlds as part of a given title thru the territorial land-grants he receives as part of his fiefdom, however. For example, anyone of the level of Marquis or higher likely has part of his land-grants on worlds within the subsector other than his primary world (or possibly within the Sector in the case of Count or higher).

Note that Ceremonial Nobles may have positions of administration (e.g. Imperial Finance Minister) of varying levels of prestige instead of representing a world per se. (Though they would still have land-grants associated with the level of the title for their own financial-maintenance and/or salary thru rents and revenues).


Sorry for the thread-drift.

 

[wellis]

Not just the criminals are incentivised, the unemployed and those needing medical treatment also have 'nothing to lose and everything to gain' by signing up.. Does not strike me as a society caring for its lower Soc strata.

Add that to the lack of due process (imprisonment without charge or trial), the corruption of the Regina subsector government (Norris authorises the kidnapping, imprisonment and the fabrication of a cover story), the unrest among the 'Spinward natives', blatant racism (major/minor race labels, racist language used towards alien races) and all of a sudden the Imperium is nothing more than an authoritarian dystopia for the vast majority.

This image has been gradually retconned over the years - or has it

Isn't this more a local issue of Norris being able to get away with this somewhat due to how slow communications is?

And it could be he skirts the edge of what is acceptable. Dots the i's and crosses the t's even if it violates the spirit.

 

[Krikkitone]

I think it’s more a matter of the Imperium being
1. realistic rather than utopia/dystopia
2. vast, ie everything you think/have heard about the imperium is true… somewhere

so nowhere in the Imperium is suffering/corruption/exploitation completely gone, but in some areas it is actively being reduced and in others it is actively supported.

ie most citizens live under a bureaucracy, dictatorship or oligarchy (Gov 8+ and 1,3,5) but some of those seem to be good for most of the citizens (5,8,A,C), and the others (1,3,9,B,D,E,F) seem more often to be neutral to the population’s condition (they aren’t necessarily 1984 “the suffering is the point”..although some Fs may be)

 

[Condottiere]

I think it's management by exception.

 

[Spinward Flow]

There's also the example of Shululsish/Alderamin/Solomani Rim.

In LBB S10, the world is detailed as having Population: A (tens of billions) and Government: 2 (participatory democracy) ... which under standard world generation rules isn't a "legal" combination. The excuse given in LBB S10 for how this is even possible was the TL=F enabling a planetary computer infrastructure that allowed "Athenian style democracy" for a population of 30 billion people.

According to "classical" LBB3.81, you can have a Government: 4 (representative democracy) all the way up to a Population: 9 (billions) but not at Population: A (tens of billions) simply due to how the dice and DMs work out.

 

[Condottiere]

I thought blockchain identification, secured internet, and a voting console.

After the issues and/or candidates are presented in a game show virtual environment.

 

[mike wightman]

So every single person is going to study each bill as it is put forward, research the pros and cons, listen to the debates and then make an informed decision? For every piece of legislation at the local to national level.

 

[kilemall]

So every single person is going to study each bill as it is put forward, research the pros and cons, listen to the debates and then make an informed decision? For every piece of legislation at the local to national level.

Maybe there is a vast vetting/filtering process before it gets to a forum vote?

 

[Dragoner]

IMTU direct democracy is an e-democracy, where people have configured software that votes their position on issues. Sort of like the polling computers in Reynolds The Prefect.

 

[whulorigan]

So every single person is going to study each bill as it is put forward, research the pros and cons, listen to the debates and then make an informed decision? For every piece of legislation at the local to national level.

Maybe there is a vast vetting/filtering process before it gets to a forum vote?

Perhaps the "citizenry" (who have the vote) is merely a subgroup of the population. "One-Citizen/One-Vote" does not necessarily mean that all world-residents are considered "citizens".

The Zhodani Consulate is techinically a Democracy - it is just that only the Nobles have suffrage-rights.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So every single person is going to study each bill as it is put forward, research the pros and cons, listen to the debates and then make an informed decision? For every piece of legislation at the local to national level.

Shululsish/Alderamin/Solomani Rim

The government of Shululsish is a rarity: a participatory democracy on a high population world, made possible by high technology. Each of the world's 30 billion carries a terminal connected to the planetary computer; all eligible voters are polled regularly and important laws are enacted in this fashion. All executive officials are elected for one-month terms. This form of government places a heavy burden on the individual, and the average citizen spends an hour a day in government related activity, both voting and consulting computer net information services for the information needed to make a decision. This governmental system is made possible only because of the leisure time available to workers at this world's tech level; many citizens become government buffs, devoting most of their time to voting on issues and proposing new topics for discussion.

Perhaps the better way to think of it is ... all (world, as opposed to imperial) citizens are eligible to vote on every issue, but not everyone does (for reasons various and sundry) just like in any democracy. Yea/Nay/Abstain/Not Voting is all a part of the mix within any window of time to vote on issues presented. The political system is also broadly meritocratic (in theory), in that the more you personally put into the workings of government, the more you get out of it ... hence the note about many citizens becoming government buffs and devoting most of their time to voting and discussion of issues.

 

[Condottiere]

Going by current practice, edutainment.

 

[Straybow]

A lot of the deaths that aren't happening are due to fewer teens and twenties dying at war, and fewer dying of now treatable diseases & disorders. But no one's been recorded past 120 - the documented record is currently 118. A few individuals are documented to have been considered adults for over 90 years but unable to prove their birth, having been estimated to about 115-125... It's the 4th and 5th score that are problematic for the more serious age related diseases. Several of those were Chinese nationals whose village records were destroyed during the Japanese invasions between WW I and WW II

It is true that a number of claimed centenarians in the Georgian Republic were shown to be cases of father-son switches. The father being dead, the son claims to be the over 60 year old father in order to avoid military service in WW 2. Everyone was in on the trick, to stick it to the man and to save their relatives.

There is a copy of Jeanne Calment's 1875 birth certificate. Some have claimed a mother-daughter switch in 1934 (the daughter Yvonne died of pleurisy, with the theory being that Jeanne actually died and the daughter assumed her identity). Nobody in her life, in her town, would have been fooled, and you can't convince a whole town to participate in such a scheme when it isn't about forced military service. She is verified as living to 122 years 164 days.

 

[Straybow]

Actually, you can make the case that Soc 9 includes lesser (planetary/local) gentry and aristocracy (Lower Upper Class) that is not recognized at the Imperial level. Soc 9 has been defined elsewhere as Lower Upper Class.

• Soc A represents those who have significant enough standing to be recognized by the Imperium in their Social circles, and likely overlaps with planetary/local Middle/Upper Upper Class;
• Social B+ can still include people who wear "two-hats" as both planetary/local Upper Class (and/or rulers) on the one hand, and Imperial Nobility who have far more prestigious positions on the other.

Yes. An Imperial title of nobility does not automatically mean that you fulfill some governmental role of authority. It is a social distinction that qualifies youto hold certain posts in Imperial government and administration.

Based on the current model for Imperial Nobility - For (proper) Landed Nobles (i.e. those who have been assigned to a world with official Imperial responsibilities):

• Every Imperial mainworld has a Knight assigned to it (unless it is barren, a dieback, or a Red-zone).
• Barons usually get assigned to Agricultural or Rich worlds.

The problem with this is statistical in the 2d6 distribution. A 9+ is 10/36 = 27.8%. That's way to high.

Okay, let's eliminate A-C to look at sub-Imperial SOC, and you get a 9 being 4/30 = 13.3%. Nope, you can't have 13.3% of the local population being gentry and aristocracy. It's more like 0.013%.

The smallest group you get with 2d6 distribution is 2.78%. That means C is gentry, and the local people who just have money or popularity but aren't really gentry.

If you roll a C, then you'd roll again to determine gentry-ness, with A-C being Imperial-connected status. At C-C you are still at 0.08%. On a world of a mere 1M pop, you're now in the top 771 people on the planet. Various Imp functionaries of no consequence, mostly. If you rolled 2d6 again and got a C you'd be in the top 21 people. You're a big fish but not the big cheese. You'd need to roll another C to be the ruling Imperial Knight, or a B to be his/her heir, spouse, or among non-inheriting subsequent children.

On a world of 36M you need another 2d6 roll of C. On a world of 1.3B you need yet another 2d6 roll of C...

Or, let's look at it "backwards." If a roll of C makes you an Imperial Baron, then by definition you are selecting from the top 36 individuals on the whole planet. A 2 would still be an extremely highly positioned person.

Well, then, let's change the scale to logarithmic and toss the 2d6 distribution correspondence out the window. The 2d6 represents the character's parent (character is just finishing A-level at the start of chargen).
C = 1 There can be only one (the Baron).
B = 10 Highly influential Imperials (probably not a Knight, unless they've put a Knight in charge of a moon colony under the Baron)
A = 100 Lesser Imperial functionaries, still highly privileged
9 = 1000 Planetary rulers (regional princes, presidents, senators, megaindustry/trade magnates)
8 = 10k Bigwigs (regional representatives, governors, megacity mayors, industry/trade CEO/directors)
7 = 100k Noteworthy folks, not in government or C-suite of major corps
6 or less = who cares... bunch o' peasants

It kinda works. It still means you are likely in the top 100k people on your home planet, which would be an extremely exclusive club.

In my system, Imperial Barons are SOC F, and Emperor is SOC T

 

[mike wightman]

The 2d6 distribution for Soc only applies to Traveller characters, not the general population.

 

[Spinward Flow]

In my system, Imperial Barons are SOC F, and Emperor is SOC T

Found the point of divergence in assumptions ...

 

[Straybow]

The 2d6 distribution for Soc only applies to Traveller characters, not the general population.

The problem still remains, as my last example showed. There is one Baron in your home system. Quixotically, there is only one Knight in your home system. If there is a Baron, there is no Knight, and vice versa. It isn't like historical situations where there are dozens or hundreds of Barons in a country, and thousands of Knights. It would be like rolling up a DnD character and having a 2.78% chance that the character be the King of the local country.

Found the point of divergence in assumptions ...

Where did you get the impression that higher SOC scale was my initial assumption? Certainly not in anything I wrote. My analysis was clearly based on the standard Traveller SOC scale.

I presented that tidbit as my solution, which I devised after a less formal consideration of the problem I presented here.

In my scheme, nobody starts out anywhere near a world ruler. One might get there with SOC promotions. C would be a Knight in the more traditional sense. It is a vestiture which is likely non-hereditary, or a non-inheriting child of someone further up the ladder. In an Imperium of such size there would be more noble ranks between the lowly Barons and the Emperor than standard Traveller scheme (C to H). I would also bump world rulers to Viscount, at the minimum.

Other examples of expanded SOC and noble structures:

Traveller Nobility

Nobility in Traveller – a Suggested Variant - [PDF Document]

INTO THE DEEP - ISSUE 2 Page 18 FEATURED ARTICLE Nobility in Traveller â A Suggested Variant By David Billinghurst "Hey, I've rolled up a noble." This has…

vdocuments.net

Nobility in Traveller

Reavers' Deep Project Portal

www.reaversdeep.com

 

[mike wightman]

There is a misunderstanding of the game here.

If you are a noble, with lands and a job, then you are in the noble career - which you leave when you enter the game to become a Traveller - unless running an 'active service' type campaign.

While in the prior history career you may well be the noble representative of the Imperium on a world, but once you muster out you lose that role and job. You still retain some personal wealth and a high soc and title.

Remember also that the Imperial Government begins at the subsector level with the subsector duke (soc 15) with lesser nobles serving the duke. So if you are a noble you are in service to that duke (could even be a family member).

A naval character receiving several soc increases may be in line for becoming a serving noble when they retire from the Navy, but for some reason they end up as a Traveller instead - they may be on their way to their duchy when adventure strikes...