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All things Zhodani

inexorabletash said:
The caste system is what irks me about the Zhos. Otherwise, a society where mental health issues are treated early and not stigmatized as in some cultures (*cough*) is pretty appealing.

Of course, the Imps have their hereditary nobility as well so the 3I is hardly superior in that regard. The same spin could apply to justifying both, and at least for the Zhos it's an objective meritocracy.
Click to expand...

Meritocracy sounds pretty great in the first place. I wonder if it would ever really work with corruption, nepotism, and the like getting in the way. The Mandarins only worked so well...

And I have yet to see a really functional model of direct democracy, with all due respect to the Swiss for their accomplishments.

And, Josh, I'm not sure about you, but after reading "Agent of the Imperium", I got a really strong impression that the 3i nobility is really corrupt. Great realism.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
 
mike wightman said:
When the Zhodani were introduced they were the 'bad guys'.
Or rather they were the 'bad guys' of pro-Imperial propaganda.

The Imperium - a state that does nothing for its members; the Imperium - that locks away political dissenters without trial; the Imperium - that ships criminals in cold sleep to colony worlds on the frontier to provide labour (but not slavery, no never slavery); the Imperium - that turns a blind eye to rampant exploitation of people and resources; the Imperium - the original 'bad guys' for PCs rebel against.

I see the Zhodani as a much more enlightened, benevolent and 'good' polity; the Imperium as the aggressive, expansionist, power hungry state.

Imperial justice - let's execute the criminal.
Zhodani justice - let's treat the criminal and return them to society.
Click to expand...

That sounds like subversive talk ... comrade. :mad:

Get him!
 
In all seriousness, you'd have to keep spending resources to maintain that kind of grip or control on society. And standards of acceptable behavior would vary wildly, or so I would think contrary to your conclusion.

The methods of addressing dissatisfaction and criminality may be the same, but jay walking in Hicktown Zho is probably a misdemeanor, whereas even though it's probably on the law books in Metropolis Zho I doubt any enforcer of any rank is even going to bat an eyelash at some jaywalker, unless they were feeling highly uncharitable.

And I would think the privileged psi-noble-class would generate a ton of resentment among the proles.

Think of cat-fights at beauty contests among the contestants who are vying to be the privileged girl to be crowned. Now magnify that among a city, planet, system or even subsector population.

Ultimately I think that's why Zhos fail as a large political entity. I simply think they cannot last with their intrusive heavy handedness.

And perhaps that's the real reason Virus swept through them.
 
Also, the Zhodani culture grew up alongside the Droyne until a WMD disease was accidentally unleashed on Zhdant. I think they found it at an Ancient base on their moon...

The rigid caste of the Droyne, everyone in their place and a place for everyone, would strongly influence Zhodani culture.
 
SanDragon said:
Also, the Zhodani culture grew up alongside the Droyne until a WMD disease was accidentally unleashed on Zhdant. I think they found it at an Ancient base on their moon...

The rigid caste of the Droyne, everyone in their place and a place for everyone, would strongly influence Zhodani culture.
Click to expand...
Zhodani culture grew up alongside Chirper influence. BIG difference.

Psionics: yes. Casting: no.
 
Blue Ghost said:
But would they really be stable? The young law breaker who steals, who also maybe does a few drugs, sometimes just reforms on his own, seeing and knowing that there's no future, so he shapes up.
Click to expand...

He doesn't get much past the first theft. When the theft is discovered, the Tavrchedle are called in to make note. They then HUNT HIM DOWN LIKE A DOG. They start asking around.

If he can't be fixed by the Taverchedle, he's quietly terminated. Either directly, or by being assigned to a high risk job under tight supervision. (Read, Assault troops.)

They don't counsel - they rewire the brain. It's beyond brainwashing. It's forcibly destroying the urge to have that which you don't want to pay for.

Further, they are a socialist society - those too infirm to do their current job will be retrained - by psionic force if need be - and will be put in a job they can do, and made to enjoy it.

Further still - there will likely be 2-3 taverchedle at each elementary school. Johnny never gets the chance to develop the urge to steal, because at age 4, in pre-school, johnny taking toys away from others is grounds for a referral to the "Guardian of Morality" ... who doesn't just tell johnny why it's wrong to take things from others, but literally, if the day's been slow enough, rewires his brain to abhor theft, right then and there.

There is no Young Law Breaker - he's either dead or adjusted. There is no proletarian political will - it's been destroyed from childhood as a form of mental illness. And the few children powerful enough to even have the potential to be a wild talent and resist are culled from the proletariat's population, and moved to a different breeding pool.

This is the dark subtext of the lack of social mobility to the intendant and noble classes... a prole would be mentally incapable of the decision making needed in most intendant jobs. All political thought, all political will, is restricted to the upper classes. And it's ruthlessly excised from childhood on.
 
aramis said:
This is the dark subtext of the lack of social mobility to the intendant and noble classes... a prole would be mentally incapable of the decision making needed in most intendant jobs. All political thought, all political will, is restricted to the upper classes. And it's ruthlessly excised from childhood on.
Click to expand...

And a good take on Dark Side Zhodani. Or Aramis has been reading too much Imperial propaganda...

Every campaign will use the Zhodani differently.
 
I know it's been years since I read the Zho AM, but I don't recall a lot of that. Is that from GT or CT?
 
Blue Ghost said:
I know it's been years since I read the Zho AM, but I don't recall a lot of that. Is that from GT or CT?
Click to expand...

It's firmly grounded in the CT materials. Tho' from a mix of vendors.

The Dark Side of the Zhodani is self-evident from the mechanics alone... A Guardian with telepathy can, reasonably, alter one person permanently per day.

Given the following facts out of the AM:Z book:

Crimes of intent are exceedingly rare in the Consulate's proles.
The proles willingly surrender after even the most heinous crimes, at least once confronted by the Guardians.
Crimes of carelessness are less frequent than in the 3I.
Crimes of insanity are usually curable.
Nobles cannot be returned to the original posting if reeducated.
Intendants who are reeducated usually return to the proletariate.
Proles who are reeducated are relocated based upon the comfort of the victim (or the family thereof) not the prole himself.
Reeducation can make one enjoy a job one doesn't enjoy.
Reeducation is not used if the individual can be easily relocated or retrained to a job they would be happier with.
Genuine disagreements exist - but common brawls are considered insanity or incited crime. And are grounds for reeducation.
Someone who is miserable or depressed may even seek out the Guardians for treatment.

If you think there's room to avoid the dark view in AM5:Z...
A few days or weeks later, the Prole returns home, much happier.
His new job is exactly what he needs and wants; a perfect
outlet for his ambitions. His successful neighbor, he now knows,
leads a shallow life without the enjoyment and fulfillment that
it should have. The world itself seems brighter and clearer. (p.14)​
Sounds like they short circuited his jealousy into self-righteousness and humility. They fundamentally altered his world-view.

And note that it's days or weeks... not months nor years.
 
Er, I vaguely remember that. But I think one of the questions I had as a kid, and still have, is what if he recalls his previous life and gets bitter, or his drive to strive for success overcomes?

I guess I just didn't buy the whole rewrite thing. I know psionics is not psychiatry per se, but in modern psychiatry you can, with drugs and the subject "sleeping", insert a notion or idea. And if they agree with it, will carry it out (or not). But you can't make them go against their nature, ergo it's my belief that as written, there must be a lot of anger and resentment just simmering and waiting to go to a full boil in Zho space.

I just have a hard time with the numbers; nobles or gifted non-proles verse everyone else.
 
aramis said:
If you think there's room to avoid the dark view in AM5:Z...
A few days or weeks later, the Prole returns home, much happier.
His new job is exactly what he needs and wants; a perfect
outlet for his ambitions. His successful neighbor, he now knows,
leads a shallow life without the enjoyment and fulfillment that
it should have. The world itself seems brighter and clearer. (p.14)​
Sounds like they short circuited his jealousy into self-righteousness and humility. They fundamentally altered his world-view.
Click to expand...

I can read that much less darkly than you think is possible. Finding a job that actually suits what they know he needs, and adjusting only those who really need it. Much of the presented scenario could be done with a minimum of hard-wire adjustment.

That isn't to say that the material doesn't support the Dark Side, but I reject outright the assertion that there is no other valid interpretation.

One permanently altered psyche per day per Psychic Surgeon requires a light touch on society as a whole, and is probably a waste of that Surgeon's time if applied to every stressed Prole brought in. The Zhodani have been practicing trauma and stress psychology for millennia, and know exactly what a given subject is going to need. Brute force is not the only answer, and an Empathic Psychologist is going to be able to say the right things to far more people per day than the Surgeon will be capable of using brute force on.
 
LIGHT SIDE ZHODANI
* Best adjusted Human society ever? Mere babes in the woods dealing with the nefarious, treacherous Imperials and Solomani?
* Andre Norton's benevolent mentalists
* Star Wars Force Jedi
* But to really appreciate them, you have to be able to adopt their societal framework and look outward at the vast empire of crazed sociopaths, the space-faring pack animals, and the obsessive-compulsive land grabbers they see around them. The Zhodani are just as perplexed and horrified by Imperials as the Imperial are of them.
* Nobles handle disputes.
* Mental rehabilitation
* Depression and unhappiness therapy that works
* Tavrchedl' cover issues not locally dealt with.
* Zhodani are culturally unified in a way we can't understand solely because they arose from a monoculture that went through a population bottleneck in recorded history.
* Imperial justice - let's execute the criminal. And: Zhodani justice - let's treat the criminal and return them to society.
* Benevolent utopian socialism

DARK SIDE ZHODANI
* Evil psionic Zhodani, scourge of the spaceways. Or Psionic mind rippers out to subject all to a supine satrapy under their evil mind control?
* Akin to THX-1138 or Cherryh's Azi
* Azimov, Foundation, and Mentalics
* Babylon-5 and the PSI-corps
* Orwell's 1984
* Aldous Huxley
* Traveller incarnation of Williamson's Humanoids, but minus the all-conquering Prime Directive. Horrific in appearance from the outside, their societal goals approach idyllic from the inside.
* Tavchredl' are the KGB
* Direct psionic manipulation applied frequently and in response to minor issues or even as a way to change the course of a world or region via directly implanted propaganda.
* Where "treat" could mean "the punishment never ends". Sisyphus.
* The caste system is what irks me about the Zhos. Otherwise, a society where mental health issues are treated early and not stigmatized as in some cultures (cough) is pretty appealing.
* Mind wipes
* Mental reprogramming
* Malevolent dystopian socialism

=====
Wanted to collect some of the thoughts.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
 
Last edited:
Yep. Read as spin, the fundamental facts don't differ much from how we e.g. indoctrinate children into being well adjusted members of society (word choice intended). And as a parent of kids with issues, the ability to help them overcome a psychological challenge by a gentle but surgical nudge rather than years of crude, blunt, therapy is appealing. We've got stone knives and bear skins, and the 3I isn't portrayed as much better.

I'm reminded of Nilsen's deconstruction of the Hiver module.
 
The comparison with Williamson's Humanoids was not intended to be a happy one. At best it is a neutral influence on how the Zhodani are presented.
 
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