All things Zhodani

[maksimsmelchak]

Further, they are a socialist society - those too infirm to do their current job will be retrained - by psionic force if need be - and will be put in a job they can do, and made to enjoy it.

*** Are they really a socialist society? What does that really mean? ***

They certainly have a group-oriented thought pattern, but I'm not so sure that it is fundamentally different than the European Union or Social Security in the USA. A sort of social safety net.

To pull a little Rousseau out, I think that participation in Zhodani society is part of the social contract. Dissidents generally voluntarily leave. Or get involuntarily exiled.

I've always wondered if all those client states and pocket empires outside of the Consulate proper are a liberated from of the GULAG, where dissidents are shipped. Or perhaps on the Core Expeditions.

At any rate, "socialism" can be a bogey man word in the cold war sense, or it can be something far more benign.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Condottiere]

You don't need to see his identification, and these are not the warbots that you are looking for.

 

[McPerth]

[m;]Please, be cautious about real world comparisons and examples, least the thread can become political. It would be a shame having to close it

To now, no one has crossed the thin line, but some posts are closing it.

As long as no judgement or oppinions about RW politics is given, some analogies can be done, but be careful, please.[/m;]

 

[aramis]

The dark side is inbuilt in the module; ignoring it means you failed your reading roll, not that it isn't a key element of the module.

Yes, the light-side of the Zhos is present in the module - but it cannot be divorced from the dark side, as they are two sides of the same coyn .

If you don't have the dark side elements, you don't have the Zhodani. If you don't have some of the light side elements, you also don't have the Zhodani.

Even the notes about bargaining have a subtext - bargaining presumes that the other side might be able to read your mind, which presumes that bargainers aren't proles.

 

[inexorabletash]

I never heard this. Please share

TNE's "Aliens of the Rim" takes pains to point out (in sidebars? I don't have it in front of me) how much of the CT Hiver module is nonsensical, and either shockingly naive or propaganda. For example, the lauded "manipulations" of the Hivers are what everyone calls "politics" and is hardly unique.

 

[Spartan159]

Do Zhodani allow traders from the Imperium? Does the Imperium allow Zhodani traders into it's borders? Are there Visas? Where do the Vargr fit in trading wise?

 

[maksimsmelchak]

TNE's "Aliens of the Rim" takes pains to point out (in sidebars? I don't have it in front of me) how much of the CT Hiver module is nonsensical, and either shockingly naive or propaganda. For example, the lauded "manipulations" of the Hivers are what everyone calls "politics" and is hardly unique.

I remember now. Thanks! All just a big Hiver manipulation.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[McPerth]

The dark side is inbuilt in the module; ignoring it means you failed your reading roll, not that it isn't a key element of the module.

Yes, the light-side of the Zhos is present in the module - but it cannot be divorced from the dark side, as they are two sides of the same coyn .

If you don't have the dark side elements, you don't have the Zhodani. If you don't have some of the light side elements, you also don't have the Zhodani.

Even the notes about bargaining have a subtext - bargaining presumes that the other side might be able to read your mind, which presumes that bargainers aren't proles.

I guess CT:AM4 is based on how Imperials see the Zhodani. See that in MT:RS the discussion about Zhodani doesn't portrait them as so dark.

Fact is that Zhodani and Imperials don't understand nor trust each other, and are unlie to see something good (or even acceptable) on the other, even if there is.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Do Zhodani allow traders from the Imperium? Does the Imperium allow Zhodani traders into it's borders? Are there Visas? Where do the Vargr fit in trading wise?

I'm no expert, but I don't think that much of these questions are known one way or another.

Characters travel to Zhodane / Zhdant in one of the earlier adventures, but most "official" Imperial-Zhodani interaction seem to be in the form of wars of negotiation in the Spinward Marches.

Few Zhodani corporations or the single Zhodani megacorporation "Priantqlovr Drafr" are well detailed. Little is known of Zhodani trade froma canon viewpoint.

Vargr-Zho interaction certainly occurs, but whether it extents to trade and cultural exchange is beyond me. Some must occur. Gypsy-Comet called the Vargr pawns of the Zhodani.

I read somewhere that Imperials could wear psi-shield helmets into the Consulate, but I seem to recall that that was a non-canon detail.

The Mongoose Zhodani book is one of the best, as far as expanding the level of detail known.

I have no idea about VISA's... Would make sense, but one of the joys of communication at the speed of travel is that getting ahead of the law is possible.

The new novel, "Agent of the Imperium" mentions cultural Zhodani in Imperial service, but not so much the other way around. I think Imperials under Zhodani authority become Zhodani, but not the other way around.

Lots of blanks. Not very many answers for many questions.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Spartan159]

I have a bad habit of introducing questions in hopes of sparking informative discussion :coffeesip: sometimes I learn something new

 

[aramis]

Do Zhodani allow traders from the Imperium? Does the Imperium allow Zhodani traders into it's borders? Are there Visas? Where do the Vargr fit in trading wise?

At least, after the 5FW, yes. IIRC, the Zho's don't close the borders (which is impractical anyway) but do expect everyone coming over to adhere to their behavioral standards when in Zho space.

It can be quite amusing to have happy, friendly, but totally uninterested Zhodani proles interact with Imperials. The proles really don't much care that individuals might have different views... They'll probably politely ignore any challenges to their beliefs, and go talk to the Guardians about it.

And it's great fun to have the Guardians react to the PC's dread with compassion... and polite "correction" by totally mundane means. If PCs cooperate, the Consulate is unlikely to have any objection to their goods... And will be happy to show the lighter side of the coin. Almost no crime.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The CT Zhodani book is (I suspect) deliberately vague in some areas to allow either a Light or Dark interpretation. Notably, so is much of the material on the higher echelons of the Imperium...

Yeah, I seem to recall that there was more detail in "Expedition to Zhodane" than even in the AM. It's been decades since I read it, but recalling my first impression, it did seem rather vague on cultural differences. The one thing I remember is that Zhodani females tended to have red hair, and that's only because I was dating a red head at the time

 

[Murph]

And this could be interesting as a starting point. It is such a pity that the DGP Zhodani module did not make print. Their additions to Canon were so valuable. I tend to see the Zhodani as closer to the "light" side version than the "dark" side for some reason. But I also do not see a closed mass of proles each wearing the same clothing, each wearing the same expression marching in lockstep a la Equalibrium (the movie). There has to be some sort of individuality/creativity to advance to TL 14/15 and to have merchants. Now the excesses of pure capitalism and pure socialism would probably be stepped on....fast.

At least, after the 5FW, yes. IIRC, the Zho's don't close the borders (which is impractical anyway) but do expect everyone coming over to adhere to their behavioral standards when in Zho space.

It can be quite amusing to have happy, friendly, but totally uninterested Zhodani proles interact with Imperials. The proles really don't much care that individuals might have different views... They'll probably politely ignore any challenges to their beliefs, and go talk to the Guardians about it.

And it's great fun to have the Guardians react to the PC's dread with compassion... and polite "correction" by totally mundane means. If PCs cooperate, the Consulate is unlikely to have any objection to their goods... And will be happy to show the lighter side of the coin. Almost no crime.

 

[Vargas]

Their additions to Canon were so valuable.

Summarize please?

 

[JBRocky]

I know I am a bit late to the conversation but figured why not, I enjoy the Zhodani so might as well get involved. First of all how you portray the Zhodani depends on your point of view. Simply Put if it is a normal Imperial based game it will be different than if it is a Zhodani based game.

Ok lets say you running the normal Imperial based Free Traders game. Well the Zhodani should be the evil mind ripping bad guy. The Thought Police should scare the PC's and have the Proles fell like the normal brain washed masses. UNTILL you have that one Prole be nice to them when drop, loose misplace something or just do something to help them out and make their life easier. Or if you have that PC who has problems,have that member of the thought police ask since they are outsiders if there is any thing he can do for them since they are in distress. Simply put have them do something nice just because its the right thing to do. Then go back to the way things were done before.

Now if you are running a Zhodani game the Though Police are there to help, Proles look to the Nobles for help and guidance, and the Noble take their job to guide and lead society very seriously. Make the Imperials the bad guys, you know the type no morals don't care about society as a whole just themselves. Then change things up a bit, that Prole who is going back for re-education doesn't want to harm anyone just live his life and be left alone. That Imperial who makes a sacrifice for the betterment of others.

Simply put, make your players think and show that their are two sides to every coin, to some extent they have to live up to the best in their society.

 

[Blue Ghost]

*snip*

But I also do not see a closed mass of proles each wearing the same clothing, each wearing the same expression marching in lockstep a la Equalibrium (the movie).

I do. I see them mas one giant psychiatric hospital with Stalinist overtones.

Zhodani Consulate, with an Imperial woman of Terran descent there to free their society chased by "thought police"; ---> https://youtu.be/vNy-7jv0XSc

 

[McPerth]

He doesn't get much past the first theft. When the theft is discovered, the Tavrchedle are called in to make note. They then HUNT HIM DOWN LIKE A DOG. They start asking around.

I do. I see them mas one giant psychiatric hospital with Stalinist overtones.

Zhodani Consulate, with an Imperial woman of Terran descent there to free their society chased by "thought police"; ---> https://youtu.be/vNy-7jv0XSc

I fully disagree with both posts. I don't see the Taverchedle' as we see police, not hunting anyone like a dog, nor having riot control units. I don't even believe they are armed, as their misión is not to confront force with force (as is our vision of police).

See that in CT:AM4 there is not a single combat skill in the Thought Police MOS table, all being interpersonal skills (I see Telepathy as such too).

If he can't be fixed by the Taverchedle, he's quietly terminated. Either directly, or by being assigned to a high risk job under tight supervision. (Read, Assault troops.)

I guess they see it more like euthanasy than punishment.

I remember how Rico justified death penalty in Starship Troopers, by claiming that if the convict cannot be cured, it's for the best of society to terminate him, and if he can be cured, he (Rico) wonders if he could live with the guilt about what he has done.

Even the notes about bargaining have a subtext - bargaining presumes that the other side might be able to read your mind, which presumes that bargainers aren't proles.

It's said that mind Reading while bargaining is seen as cheating (as would be to read an exam questions' answers on the teacher's minds). I see that meaning proles also bargain (after all, most merchants are proles),and, as Zhodani are basically honest, and I guess that means too they don't cheat, and so they don't take this unfair advantage.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

But I also do not see a closed mass of proles each wearing the same clothing, each wearing the same expression marching in lockstep a la Equalibrium (the movie).

*** Just another brick in the wall, eh? LOL ***

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I fully disagree with both posts. I don't see the Taverchedle' as we see police, not hunting anyone like a dog, nor having riot control units. I don't even believe they are armed, as their misión is not to confront force with force (as is our vision of police).

See that in CT:AM4 there is not a single combat skill in the Thought Police MOS table, all being interpersonal skills (I see Telepathy as such too).

I guess they see it more like euthanasia than punishment.

I remember how Rico justified death penalty in Starship Troopers, by claiming that if the convict cannot be cured, it's for the best of society to terminate him, and if he can be cured, he (Rico) wonders if he could live with the guilt about what he has done.

*** So, they're like camp counselors then? Take the Myer-Briggs and your life will be better? ***

The thought made me chuckle.

I wonder if psychotropic medications or even shrooms exist within Zhodani-land.

It's said that mind Reading while bargaining is seen as cheating (as would be to read an exam questions' answers on the teacher's minds). I see that meaning proles also bargain (after all, most merchants are proles),and, as Zhodani are basically honest, and I guess that means too they don't cheat, and so they don't take this unfair advantage.

*** So, they take fair advantage of others then? ***

I think of Zhodani trade as of trade with ethical brokers... Sort of like trade by religious men following their religious precepts... No specific real life comparisons shared. Thinking about the Middle East, Ottoman Empire, Austrohungarian Empire, Polish Kingdoms, and others. Certain religious groups made a killing on trading by not charging usury (interest), being largely honest (plenty of exceptions though), and trading on the "fair" terms of their belief systems.

I would imagine the Zhodani to be similar. He, or she, is not out to rip you off or make a killing, just an honest living. The ones wanting to make a dishonest living were probably already exiled or rehabilitated. Cue overpressure valves for nearby Zhodani client states, border nations, and the Zhodani versions of Australia.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Nah, I think the Zhos have a planned economy and then crack the whip on non-conformists. The reason I don't buy the whole "erase memories" is partially because you really can't do that, and as per Traveller's leaning towards hard science (psionics not-withstanding), I think it problematic that a person's inner drives would not overcome "reprogramming".

I.E. "Mister X, you are not attracted to long haired red-heads." Say his wife levelled an infidelity charge against him, and the other female in question was a redhead. If the inner desire for said red head is strong enough, then that'll overwhelm any software patch.

How the Zhos impliment a plan-B is beyond me (my stuff is still locked up in storage), but unless the Zhos are cranking out designer people (genetically engineered people, and I don't see why they wouldn't, but even then ...) who have had "the fight" taken out of them, then just don't see the Consulate realistically being a practical long lasting entity.

Seriously, you'd have to crack the reprogramming whip quite a lot, and you as a neighbor would become fearful and probably resentful. And if the thought police, even with big 1970s smiles on their faces, treated your family (close and extended) or best friend, you'd probably become concerned about yourself, and possibly try to leave.

Zhos are bad guys through and through.

The Imperium has its issues, but its free (mostly at least).