All things Zhodani

[McPerth]

Nah, I think the Zhos have a planned economy and then crack the whip on non-conformists. The reason I don't buy the whole "erase memories" is partially because you really can't do that, and as per Traveller's leaning towards hard science (psionics not-withstanding), I think it problematic that a person's inner drives would not overcome "reprogramming".

That's an interesting point: how far can brain reprograming go?

It's said you cannot be forced to do anything you really abohor under hipnosis. What will be the limits under more psionic conditioning?

How the Zhos impliment a plan-B is beyond me (my stuff is still locked up in storage), but unless the Zhos are cranking out designer people (genetically engineered people, and I don't see why they wouldn't, but even then ...) who have had "the fight" taken out of them, then just don't see the Consulate realistically being a practical long lasting entity.

Seriously, you'd have to crack the reprogramming whip quite a lot, and you as a neighbor would become fearful and probably resentful. And if the thought police, even with big 1970s smiles on their faces, treated your family (close and extended) or best friend, you'd probably become concerned about yourself, and possibly try to leave.

They don't need that. They treat people when they think they are ill (in this case mentally), but I'm quite sure they also modify their society to avoid those same illness. Probably they see a society that produces too many such insane people is a mentally ill society itsef, and sure they try to treat it too.

The Zhodani Government knows what its people needs and desires better than any other, and that allows them to take those needs and wishes into their planning, as sure as to detect too strong dissidents to be treated.

They misstrust Imperium (and I guess many other societies) because they see them as mentally ill societies

Zhos are bad guys through and through.

You've read too much Imperial propaganda

The Imperium has its issues, but its free (mostly at least).

Are you sure about this?

• most imperials live under oppressive governments (as the HiPop worlds are the ones more likely to have them)
• Imperial citizens have nothing to say on Imperial government
• Imperial Government is a true piramidal one. with the Emperor on its top, whose Word is law without any controlling body

Is that what you call freedom?

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Is that what you call freedom?

Cue Mel Gibson in Braveheart...

Shalom,
M.

 

[Blue Ghost]

McPerth; you can write over data in the human mind, but you can't really dump data in the human mind. You can make one set of data or information more "audible" or easier to access, or the dominant thought such that a person will forget (temporarily) the other information, whatever it is, but contrary to what Aramis cited, you can't really get rid of it.

And the more information or "smoke screen" you try to create for that person, then odds are the angrier they'll get when they remember what they forgot. It's why I think the Zhos are not only evil, even though the nobles / talented-psionics think they're good, but I would think the whole thing would erupt in revolt.

 

[McPerth]

McPerth; you can write over data in the human mind, but you can't really dump data in the human mind. You can make one set of data or information more "audible" or easier to access, or the dominant thought such that a person will forget (temporarily) the other information, whatever it is, but contrary to what Aramis cited, you can't really get rid of it.

So you accept the possibility of mind taping but not to psionically "reprogram" people?

Psycology is not my specialty, but AFAIK human mind is still a true mistery for us, and we don't know well how can be done on it. While we understand quite well (or so we think) about the body and physiology, our knowledge about the mind and psycology is quite more limited.

And the more information or "smoke screen" you try to create for that person, then odds are the angrier they'll get when they remember what they forgot. It's why I think the Zhos are not only evil, even though the nobles / talented-psionics think they're good, but I would think the whole thing would erupt in revolt.

But in fact they wouldn't need to, as they train people from chidren in their society, both psycologycally/psionically and just by cultural bias.

They don't program its people to be "psycological clones". They allow diversity, and probably see it as sane too, as logn as it's within aceptable limits (as any society does).

As I said, I guess they make their own society to evolution (probably in a more controlled way that our own society) along the lines they see more sane, and probably the ideas/needs/wishes of the people (even proles, as they do know them quite well) are taken into account when doing so.

This may well lead to a society where most personnel needs are well cared for ,as they need them even better than the individual itself, and where pople is being basically happy, and feels cared for and secure. I guess this would be quite less a paved ground for revolt as you say.

Add to this Taverchedle' work and cultural bias, and no history of revolts to take example from.

Of course freedom is more limited than in our society, but not all societies in history have valued it as we do, and we don't know what will be in the future, or what could be if our own society had evolutioned diferently than it did.

And, as said, Imperium people are not too much free, and without the psycological understanding the Zhodani have and with so many historical examples, I'd say revolt is quite more probable there. Off course the IN is a good derretant, but that could aslo lead to the ressent you talk about...

 

[mike wightman]

The reason I don't buy the whole "erase memories" is partially because you really can't do that, and as per Traveller's leaning towards hard science (psionics not-withstanding), I think it problematic that a person's inner drives would not overcome "reprogramming".

In the CT adventure Expedition to Zhodne there was this thing called a personality overlay machine.

Fast forward to T5 and Marc's novel and personalities can be blanked, overwritten, stored , edited and all with machines, no psionics involved.
Imagine what a psionically gifted society can do with such machines and psionics...

How the Zhos impliment a plan-B is beyond me (my stuff is still locked up in storage), but unless the Zhos are cranking out designer people (genetically engineered people, and I don't see why they wouldn't, but even then ...) who have had "the fight" taken out of them, then just don't see the Consulate realistically being a practical long lasting entity.

And yet last it has, and without the internal conflict so evident in the Imperium.
The Consulate is in some senses a psionic meritocracy, proles look forward to having gifted offspring who may be raised to intendent status, proles can even gain in social standing and be enobled. Proles can join any service, rise through the ranks, be commissioned. If they stick with the prole career they have access to the broker skill which is a licence to print money.

Another thing to remember is that psionics can be trained, a very rich prole family may well pay for psionic training for their children to elevate them to intendent status - all they need is the drive and the wealth to do so.

Proles are not the oppressed masses you try to present them as.

Zhos are bad guys through and through.

I completely and totally disagree.

The Imperium has its issues, but its free (mostly at least).

:rofl:

 

[Murph]

Vilani and Vargr, and Solomani and Aslan expanded on the original Alien Module books. Very handy, and they are prized possessions.

Summarize please?

 

[aramis]

The ones wanting to make a dishonest living were probably already exiled or rehabilitated. Cue overpressure valves for nearby Zhodani client states, border nations, and the Zhodani versions of Australia.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

I doubt they would exile anyone. Exiles are likely to hold a grudge. Dead men don't. If you can't fix them, don't let them harm others is the strong implication, so those who cannot be rehabilitated are most likely to be used for excessively dangerous but not overly important tasks, and/or executed outright.

Essentially, you don't drop your rabid dog out in the woods, you shoot him and bury him in the back yard.

 

[Condottiere]

Dooley: Alright, let's get one thing straight: The woman is mine! Now we're both members of the animal kingdom. You know that and I know that. And we both know that this thing is really primal. So if you think you're such a badass you just try that one more time and you're gonna end up in a pet cemetary! You remember the movie Old Yeller? You remember when they shot him in the end? I didn't cry! Now come on!

 

[Murph]

Trade and Commerce would be interesting, since like Babylon 5 and the Commercial telepaths, all transactions would be fair and honest. It would make things interesting for all concerned, especially if you intend to only live up to the letter of the contract rather than the spirit of the thing. Justice systems the same way, it would be like a telepathic version of H. Beam Pipers veridicator device used in court as a truth detector. Lawyers would scream bloody murder, trials would actually be fair and impartial.

 

[Blue Ghost]

McPerth and Mike Whiteman; eh ... I just don't buy it.

If mind wiping is a reality in Traveller, well, there's not much of a rebuttal that I can give. Marc's word is law; his game, his world, his creation.

However, I don't think biological data storage is amenable to rewrites, no matter how hard one tries. That's kind of the irony between a floppy disk and a brain. The brain of any animal can forget stuff, but the data is never lost. Whereas a floppy can't forget to recall it later, but it can be blanked out through mechanical means.

As for Zho society, I don't know. I'd rather live in a free jungle than in an orderly castle.

 

[aramis]

McPerth and Mike Whiteman; eh ... I just don't buy it.

If mind wiping is a reality in Traveller, well, there's not much of a rebuttal that I can give. Marc's word is law; his game, his world, his creation.

However, I don't think biological data storage is amenable to rewrites, no matter how hard one tries. That's kind of the irony between a floppy disk and a brain. The brain of any animal can forget stuff, but the data is never lost. Whereas a floppy can't forget to recall it later, but it can be blanked out through mechanical means.

Your disbelief is noted... however, science is capable of doing so now. It can be done NOW, without Psionics... so it should be doable easier with psionics.

Most credible source I've read:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/memories-can-be-edited/

A reasonable pop-sci video:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/memory-hackers.html

Less credible versions:
http://bigthink.com/dangerous-ideas/3-erase-traumatic-memories-and-achieve-your-own-eternal-sunshine
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...ries-Breakthrough-help-dementia-patients.html
http://www.livescience.com/7315-drug-deletes-bad-memories.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...scovered-how-to-delete-unwanted-memories.html

 

[Blue Ghost]

Eh ... I read that Scientific American article, and they're not actually removing data, just blocking data signals. I mean that may help people with PTSD, as per the article, but the data, however buried, is still there.

The "Blue Ghost theory" is that the mammalian mind is a network of networks that buffers and rebuffers data. You can probably block the most travelled or most accessed routes that you, me, your dog, John Watts' cat, Marc Miller's mechanic use to access data, and in that way "block" or "erase" that data, but the data, the hard "1s and 0s" (or whatever brains use) is still there.

Back in 1999 or 2000, a guy I used to argue a lot with over at Starfleetgames said that even the FBI can retrieve "lost data" on floppies that had not only been deleted, but physically exposed to intense magnetic fields and other conditions that for intents and purposes, destroy magnetic patterns. But the ghost image or fingerprint of that old data is still there, and if you have what the FBI has, then you can recall anything.

But that's just my opinion. Someone else may have something.

In the meantime ... death to Zhodanis!

Long live Archduke Norris.

 

[aramis]

Eh ... I read that Scientific American article, and they're not actually removing data, just blocking data signals. I mean that may help people with PTSD, as per the article, but the data, however buried, is still there.

The "Blue Ghost theory" is that the mammalian mind is a network of networks that buffers and rebuffers data. You can probably block the most travelled or most accessed routes that you, me, your dog, John Watts' cat, Marc Miller's mechanic use to access data, and in that way "block" or "erase" that data, but the data, the hard "1s and 0s" (or whatever brains use) is still there.

Back in 1999 or 2000, a guy I used to argue a lot with over at Starfleetgames said that even the FBI can retrieve "lost data" on floppies that had not only been deleted, but physically exposed to intense magnetic fields and other conditions that for intents and purposes, destroy magnetic patterns. But the ghost image or fingerprint of that old data is still there, and if you have what the FBI has, then you can recall anything.

But that's just my opinion. Someone else may have something.

In the meantime ... death to Zhodanis!

Long live Archduke Norris.

Norris' assistant is a Zho...

 

[kilemall]

In a webcomic called The End, a militaristic psionic society treats it's malcontents and people who fail the system with a process known as Fading, the resulting people are known as the Faded.

They remember everything and everyone- they are just emotionally neutered and do not care. Basically an emo-lobotomy.

That might be a 'humane' option the Zhos choose if they can't make them 'happy'.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I doubt they would exile anyone. Exiles are likely to hold a grudge. Dead men don't. If you can't fix them, don't let them harm others is the strong implication, so those who cannot be rehabilitated are most likely to be used for excessively dangerous but not overly important tasks, and/or executed outright.

Essentially, you don't drop your rabid dog out in the woods, you shoot him and bury him in the back yard.

You're very dark. Very realpolitik.

*** Where do you think all of the little client states around the Consulate come from? ***

I don't there's any canon so there is no real right or wrong... Just conjecturing.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[aramis]

You're very dark. Very realpolitik.

*** Where do you think all of the little client states around the Consulate come from? ***

I don't there's any canon so there is no real right or wrong... Just conjecturing.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Mention is made somewhere that they are local minors used as buffers...
I think in don's drafts of mgt-am:z.

 

[McPerth]

In a webcomic called The End, a militaristic psionic society treats it's malcontents and people who fail the system with a process known as Fading, the resulting people are known as the Faded.

They remember everything and everyone- they are just emotionally neutered and do not care. Basically an emo-lobotomy.

That might be a 'humane' option the Zhos choose if they can't make them 'happy'.

I don't believe the Zhodani are like this. See that it is stated that anyone undergoing re-education may afterwards join the society with no more stigma than having endured a physical disease (like flu) in our society.

In this, it's quite unlike 1984, where those that have been re-educated are in many senses excluded from society.

I doubt they would exile anyone. Exiles are likely to hold a grudge. Dead men don't. If you can't fix them, don't let them harm others is the strong implication, so those who cannot be rehabilitated are most likely to be used for excessively dangerous but not overly important tasks, and/or executed outright.

Essentially, you don't drop your rabid dog out in the woods, you shoot him and bury him in the back yard.

You're very dark. Very realpolitik.

*** Where do you think all of the little client states around the Consulate come from? ***

I don't there's any canon so there is no real right or wrong... Just conjecturing.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

I'm with Aramis here. Zhodani don't exile people, as they would probably see it as producing unnecessary suffereing, asd so as a mental illness itself. They don't even lock people in jails, for the same reasons.

See that jail terms have 3 reasons to be:

1. rehabilitate criminals
2. take those that cannot be rehabilitated away from society to protect it from them
3. punishmen

Exile serves the last two reasons.

The Zhodani excell in the first use (rehabilitation, that they see as healing), and see the third one (punishement) as useless and probably a sign of a unsane mind, as its based on producing suffering on another person.

As for the second use (to protect society from those unhelable), they see that the most efficient way to do it (and the one producing less suffering) is just to kill the unhealable person.

About those Little client states, I guess they are there due to several reasons:

• They already where there when the Zhodani reached its current borders (or have appeared afterwards, unrelated to the Zhodani) and they see it better (or easier) to keep them as client states than to absorb them
• buffer states
• set by the Zhodani (in many indirect ways) as advance guard to absorb them in the future, so preparing them as a smaller state while they become readi for joining the Consulate

 

[Blue Ghost]

Norris' assistant is a Zho...

Lies!

... anyway, it explains a few things ... I'll have to reread that Spinward Marches campaign.

 

[Blue Ghost]

McPerth; if you're assigning someone high risk jobs hoping that he'll either shape up or that the job itself will eventually do him in because "he's incurable" (as per Aramis' explanation), then by definition you are evil.

That's the kind of thing the Soviets did, or even some of the old city states (though they tended just to kill you outright).

To me the Zhos are a "Prozac nation" ... without the Prozac. And if the medication / psionics don't get you, then they invite you to go fix that automated lumber mill. Don't worry. The power isn't on. Just go inside and pull that wrench that got caught in the blades ... we'll wait outside for you ... honest

Or think of Bugs Bunny when he got drafted, and how the US army dealt with him in the end. And in thirty years he could retire.

 

[aramis]

McPerth; if you're assigning someone high risk jobs hoping that he'll either shape up or that the job itself will eventually do him in because "he's incurable" (as per Aramis' explanation), then by definition you are evil.

That's the kind of thing the Soviets did, or even some of the old city states (though they tended just to kill you outright).

To me the Zhos are a "Prozac nation" ... without the Prozac. And if the medication / psionics don't get you, then they invite you to go fix that automated lumber mill. Don't worry. The power isn't on. Just go inside and pull that wrench that got caught in the blades ... we'll wait outside for you ... honest

Or think of Bugs Bunny when he got drafted, and how the US army dealt with him in the end. And in thirty years he could retire.

If they can't fix you, they're unlikely to trust you.

They are not "evil" - at least not in the common gamerdome meaning of "acts for own interests at the expense of others"... They are axiomatically Lawful Good. Acts for the betterment of society, uses laws to do so, and will not tolerate evil to exist; tell the truth all the time, will give their word if needed, and will strive to live up to it with all their being. They are freaking old-school D&D Paladins.

The biggest difference (and you're getting a pass on the political references THIS TIME ONLY) is that the Soviets did what they did to come to power, and did not hold their leadership to the same standards, plus couldn't effectively edit people's desires and memories. And "Uncle Joseph" was a power-mad psychotic who really was out to rule the world, wielded the government to further his personal agendas (ask me about that in the pit; asking here would violate the no religion rule), and killed and blackmailed to get where he was (Both Dmytryshyn and Avrich have written about this).

The Zho's can edit memories and desires. It can be done using the rules as written in CT and MT. THey also don't exempt their leaders from the system. They don't use it for personal gain, only for the betterment of society. (And any noble trying to use it for personal gain would likely get read, accused before the next one up, and wind up reeducated.)