General Aslan and slavery

[mike wightman]

I do not have a lot of Mongoose material, and the only alien module that I have is the one on the Sword Worlds, which definitely turned me off of getting any more.

It is one of their wort, and it is up against stiff competition for that title. It suffers a lot in comparison with the GT Sword World book which is one of the best Traveller supplements ever written, shame the MgT author didn't bother to read it.

Having said that, I suspect that you are turning the Aslan into humans with lion-like bodies, rather than a separate species with their own distinct motivations, desires, and drives.

This is a very important point, No Traveller alien race should be viewed as humans in suits. The CT Alien module, GT Alien Races 2 and DGP's Solomani and Aslan go to great lengths to describe the differences in physiology, psychology, culture. They all have to point out how we as humans can use existing human cultures to take a stab at playing them - hence describing them as similar to feudal samurai and Scottish highland clans.

MgT has added stuff to their vision of the Aslan which is very much lion men in rubber suits - they have taken the worst inspirations from literature and added them to the Aslan to produce a kewel new take on them.

(note not worst as in bad - the Kzinti in Niven's universe are a complex race, but they are very different to the Aslan of Traveller. The kilrathi are a Kzinti rip off.)

It is up to the Game Master as to how he or she runs his or hers universe, so in that sense, all this thread does is increase the number of possibilities for running the Aslan. They can be nasty, territory defending carnivores who view all weaker creatures that are edible as food, or basically humans in lion-like bodies. Which ever fits your universe, as there cannot be a single right answer.

I agree with you.
I would like to add that most versions of Traveller goes to great lengths to remind us that the Aslan are only superficially in any way similar to lions.

 

[mike wightman]

Aslan from the Heirate have their own culture and drives. There are over a thousand clans, the most powerful 29 are the ones that meet every now and then to discuss policies.

While there are core Aslan values of honour and family, the cultural differences between the clans is likely to be vast if you consider wither end of the distribution.

Aslan are tolerant and inclusive - they recognise a beings worth in society by that beings actions. If they act in a male way they are male if they act in a female way they are female.

In a similar way Aslan will take humans as vassals and treat them as they would any Aslan vassal. After adapting to the Aslan way of doing things some humans become culturally Aslan and the racial Aslan recognise them. Over a few generations the human Aslan and racial Aslan of the heirate are the same culturally. The humans are still humans but they have Aslan principles, ethics, morals, culture, outlook. They may look human but they are effectively alien.

In a similar way many Aslan, Vargr, Bwap and the like that have lived in the Imperium for a few generations are culturally Imperial - they are humans in funny suits almost...

 

[Timerover51]

(note not worst as in bad - the Kzinti in Niven's universe are a complex race, but they are very different to the Aslan of Traveller. The kilrathi are a Kzinti rip off.)

I am quite familiar with the Known Space series by Niven, and the Kzinti, and how the Puppeteers were playing games with them to get rid of the extremely aggressive ones.

I also have read the Narnia series several times, and when someone uses "Aslan", there is a lot more attached to that term than just Traveller.

I would like to add that most versions of Traveller goes to great lengths to remind us that the Aslan are only superficially in any way similar to lions.

My take on the Aslan is given in the first post of My Heretical Traveller Unvierse thread, where I do have them as genetically engineered Terran Lions.

This thread has given me some ideas at to how to use them in my Out Rim sector.

 

[Condottiere]

At the start of the Aslan space race they could have been homogeneous, they could have had a slave owning tradition, and as they grew more civilized, came to the conclusion it really isn't a viable institution.

Most of them,anyway.

 

[aramis]

I also have read the Narnia series several times, and when someone uses "Aslan", there is a lot more attached to that term than just Traveller.

Like being Ottoman Turkish for Lion. Where both Marc and CS Lewis claim inspiration from.

That Mongoose chose to make their suppoosedly 3I alien module incompatible with the rest of the editions is a problem, but not the only one with the Mongoose games.

 

[mike wightman]

At the start of the Aslan space race they could have been homogeneous, they could have had a slave owning tradition, and as they grew more civilized, came to the conclusion it really isn't a viable institution.

Most of them, anyway.

Yes they could. Yet the powers that be didn't feel it worth mentioning in any of the supplements that detail the Aslan prior to the MgT version, which needed to retcon the original portrayal of the Aslan to make them blood thirsty baby eating slave taking monsters. Hey, they are more kewel that way. Oh and give them gravity beem shootin spears while at it.

Taking slaves following a clan conflict is something of a fine human tradition, perhaps the original authors of Aslan material wanted to point out the differences between humans and Aslan by not giving them a tradition of slavery, unlike most of recorded human history.

 

[mike wightman]

That Mongoose chose to make their suppoosedly 3I alien module incompatible with the rest of the editions is a problem, but not the only one with the Mongoose games.

I completely agree.

The GT ATU at least maintained CT canon as best it could.

The early MgT ATU appears to be written by people who have only ever heard about Traveller but never read any of the source material detailing the OTU.

 

[GypsyComet]

The early MgT ATU appears to be written by people who have only ever heard about Traveller but never read any of the source material detailing the OTU.

"Appears" is the key word here. By all accounts Gareth was a long time fan, which shows in a lot of 1e material. Matthew and MJD together without moderating influence is a recipe for...well, what we've been getting. Your mileage may vary. Mine certainly does.

 

[whartung]

The early MgT ATU appears to be written by people who have only ever heard about Traveller but never read any of the source material detailing the OTU.

But the detail is that this is a "sanctioned source", so unless it's "de-canonized", it's canon.

 

[aramis]

"Appears" is the key word here. By all accounts Gareth was a long time fan, which shows in a lot of 1e material. Matthew and MJD together without moderating influence is a recipe for...well, what we've been getting. Your mileage may vary. Mine certainly does.

Gareth was a fan of the 1E books he had... but it's clear from the books and playtest that he wasn't familiar with the CT 2E (1981+ printings) nor HG 2E (1980+ printings).

He mentioned not having access to anything post Bk5-79 when we were communicating via email about the various trade goods on my spreadsheet (which is what got my special mention in the 1E corebook credits). I no longer have the email (that computer died in 2010). Gareth also implied he was unaware Marc had sent a CD of all the canon while writing the 1E core.

Also.... Credit and Blame needs to go where it belongs....

AM1 Aslan: Gareth Hanrahan
AM2 Vargr: Simon Beal
AM3 Darrians: Pete Nash
AM4 Zhodani: Don McKinney
AM5 Solomani: David Pulver (always a cringe for me)
B1 Mercenary: Bryan Steele
B2 High Guard: Lawrence Whittaker and Gareth Hanrahan
B3 Scout: Lawrence Whittaker
B4 Psion: Lawrence Whitaker
B5 Agent: Bryan Steele with additional text by Gareth Hanrahan
B6 Scoundrel: Gareth Hanrahan
B7 Merchant Prince: Bryan Steele
B8 Dilletante: Pete Nash
S1 (1e) 760 Patrons: Bryan Steele
S1 (2e) 760 Patrons: August Hahn
S2 Traders and Gunboats: Bryan Steele
S3 Fighting Ships: Bryan Steele, Stuart Machin
S4 Central Supply Catalogue: Martin Dougherty & Bryan Steele
S5 Civilian Vehicles: Simon Beal with additional text by Gareth Hanrahan
S6 Military Vehicles: Simon Beal with additional text by Gareth Hanrahan
S8 Cybernetics: Pete Nash & Nick Robinson
S10 Merchants & Cruisers: Andrew Welty and Ian Stead

Some of the more outré changes are Gareth's work. Like MGT-AM Aslan
Mr. Steele also has made some serious dents, too...

Gareth is great as a designer (and his work on The One Ring line for C7 bears that out). He's not great as a writer for the OTU, because he doesn't know the OTU. He wasn't really aware of the OTU until the playtest feedback started dumping in, and dumping on him for not matching it.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Gareth was a fan of the 1E books he had... but it's clear from the books and playtest that he wasn't familiar with the CT 2E (1981+ printings) nor HG 2E (1980+ printings).

He's not great as a writer for the OTU, because he doesn't know the OTU. He wasn't really aware of the OTU until the playtest feedback started dumping in, and dumping on him for not matching it.

Traveller hasn't made it easy for writers.

There has not been an active system reference until today with the Traveller RPG Wiki, and that's still a work in progress.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Main_Page

There is literally a corpus of almost 2,000 published works and over 40 years of production. That would be overwhelming for anyone. I wouldn't envy anyone that task. Wat too much to research casually or for fun...

Plus, so much of the "canon" (...which wasn't even vaguely defined until a few years ago) was rather vague and open-ended anyway. It's swiss cheese, more holes than substance, in many, many areas...

It's a rather formidable task to know the OTU, let alone well...

Shalom,
M.

 

[mike wightman]

I have actual print copies of just about everything to see print for Traveller over the years - except for the early MgT supplements. I've got most of it electronically but I couldn't bring myself to buy it dead tree at the time, and I have picked some of it up cheaply second hand.

When I read through it in the shop I put most of it back on the shelf - badly researched fanon made semi-canon. The complete train wreck that is the Aslan in the Mg ATU was probably the worst of the lot, but the competition for that award is pretty fierce. Mercenary and the merchant marines actually made me laugh out loud in the shop.

I notice that some steps are being taken to dial back the slaver baby eating monster version of the Heirate Aslan in more recent MgT offerings, but it still conflicts with OTU sources.

The Glorious Empire can be made to work within the OTU, but references to historical Aslan slave taking and eating of intelligent beings needs to be attributed to unreliable narrator and blatant propaganda from the enemies of the Aslan. Note I am not saying anyone should discard it if they like it for their traveller universe, just that it doesn't fit OTU source material.

Here is a quote from the MT Rebellion Sourcebook which just about completely contradicts the MgT version of Aslan initial expansion in the early FTL days:

Some years after they reached space, they encountered human traders also exploring new territories and, in the process,
discovered that the universe was already filled with star-faring races Initial contacts were peaceful...

{I even have an explanation for the Aslan incursions of the MT era that angered so many - Norris invited them using Imperial/Darrian Aslan as go between agents (there is a lot more to the story but that is my take on it).}

 

[mike wightman]

The MT Rebellion Sourcebook actually has a pretty succinct description of Aslan 'invasions'.

The stereotype of alien invasion assumes violence and warfare: the truth of Aslan invasions is quite different. Aslan are not interested in short-term loot and plunder; they do want long-term territory and markets.
They need to ensure they will be able to stay in their colony and thrive once it is established.
Wherever possible, Aslan will buy the land they settle. A small population on a world will often sell its rights to unclaimed, unexploited land for very little. Land can be bought with money or with royalties (for a fixed time) against the profit which comes from exploitation, or even with the promise to pay taxes. Aslan owe their own individual loyalty to their clan, but Aslan clans accept the authority of alien governments (for example, in taxation) over clan members, when that authority is evenhanded and just.
Where necessary, Aslan will take the land they need. Some worlds have whole continents which lie vacant: ejecting Aslan squatters is nearly impossible. Eventually, the two-way trade between the Aslan and the locals brings acceptance of the new citizens.
Where required, Aslan will fight for the land they need Their ability as warriors is undeniable and provides a strong incentive for local citizens not to resist the settlers.

This also directly contradicts MgT Aslan.

 

[Timerover51]

I am a bit puzzled. If the K'kree are slaughtering carnivores out of hand, and that includes milk drinkers apparently, in the OTU, what is the problem with Aslan and also the Vargr making use of available protein in the form of defeated enemies and captives?

 

[mike wightman]

The simple answer is the K'kree are not slaughtering carnivores across charted space. They are a civilized intelligent race that recognises that there is more to existence than how your pre-intelligence ancestors lived.
That said they insist on subject races being vegetarian. Thousands of years ago as they expanded they gave alien races they encountered little choice in the matter, convert or suffer interdiction or worse in some cases.

The K'kree were stopped over three thousand years prior to the 1105 Imperial starting date by the Hive federation.

The bit of fluff about militant K'kree is specific to one tiny K'kree fraction - a fraction which would be wiped out in pretty short order by the Ithklur.

Tell me, why do humans not make use of defeated enemy and captives protein? We are omnivorous after all.

 

[Condottiere]

We do, we just don't document it.

Most of the early twentieth century generations will admit to is eating cats, dogs and rats during the war.

 

[mike wightman]

Cats, dogs and rats are not intelligent...

 

[Condottiere]

People were less picky in Leningrad and Stalingrad.

 

[Timerover51]

Cats, dogs and rats are not intelligent...

I have a U.S. Dept. of Agriculture Bulletin from 1918 that gives recipes for dolphin and whale meat as human food. The U.S. was the most well-off nation with respect to food in World War One. The Japanese periodically ate Allied airman in World War 2 as an act of demonstrating their superiority over the Europeans.

 

[Condottiere]

To be fair, I think that extended to all prisoners of war, following a directive for garrisons to be self sufficient, seeing that Japanese logistics weren't robust at the best of times, without everything getting bombed or torpedoed.