Aslan: Battleships or Battleriders?

[Vladika]

Thanks for all the input.


True, this might work is as follows:
The male (nominal) BT captain is also the overall force commander of the BT/BR combination.
When combat is imminent, he embarks on one of the BRs and commands the squadron. On the BT, the female XO assumes command.

By the way, a good point has been made here about Aslan and fighter craft. As I said, my purpose here is to build ships for my HG revamp. Fighters are going to be more generally useful than they were in HG2 under these rules. So maybe I'm going to go for an Aslan naval doctrine where spinal armed capital ships above cruiser size are not used, but fighter carriers and BT/BR combinations are.

Glad to see you are taking Fighters seriously.

Even so, under HG Fighters are FAR from useless. Once the target ships computer, and or agility, are compromised, Fighters are a very inexpensive means to further EFFECTIVE combat.

This allows Capital Ships, and other major assets, to to engage more productive targets. Fighters continue to clean up. If and when a breakthrough to the reserve is make, Fighters are in their element. Also, if an opponent attempts to break off by acceleration, the Fighters can prevent this from occurring, prevent the breaking off ship from returning to the main battle, prevent the ship from effecting repair. In short, the Fighters are then in a position to finish off this ship at little cost to the main battle forces still engaged.

Fighters can break off at need and join their carrier in the outer system, safe from molestation. (Great tactic for screening the losing fleet, allowing Rider recovery in the reserve, and then jumping the fleet to safety from the reserve.)

Should someone opt to change the HG2 rules to prevent any of the above from working, just remember; there is president under later rules sets to eliminate the major factors working against the Fighter: Computer tonnage, and tonnage required for their Power Plants.

A loan Fighter is not a ship killer, a swarm are, when committed appropriately.

 

[McPerth]

True, this might work is as follows:
The male (nominal) BT captain is also the overall force commander of the BT/BR combination.
When combat is imminent, he embarks on one of the BRs and commands the squadron. On the BT, the female XO assumes command.

I keep believeing this not being as I see the Aslan.

Would really an Aslan male take combat orders from a female?

See that Tactics and Leadership are male skills, so I guess the XO, being a female, will not have them. So, leaving her in overall effective (even while not formal) command would be in detriment of the overall force coordination.

Neither do I see remaining in command, even if that foregoes directly participating in combat, as being a dishonorable way for a warrior leader. After all, I've not read in any Aslan related text of begining the combat with duels among the leaders as there were in medieval Europe.

The (male) aldmiral will remain in the CIC of the commanding ship, being it a carrier, a tender or any other capital ship, and, IMHO, it's as likely as a human aldmiral to remain in second line to keep overall control of the whole force and directing his forces, that being so an honorable task as participating in combat in first line (afer all, he who has reached such high command position is already a proven warrior who doesn't need to show its valor, as he sure has already).

We also must to take into account the formalized combat rules that use to apply to Aslan. The same way it's told in canon that Aslan forces don't use robots unless the other side also has them, as it will be an unfair advantage, I also see foreseeable that they don't use spinals unless the other side also has them, for the same reasons.

This could well end up with spinal equiped ships being quite scarce (if available at all), as most Aslan wars are against other clans, most of whom cannot afford spinal equiped ships, and those who can will not use them if you don't have any (so making spinal equiped ships seldom usable, and so inefficient), and most forces will be turret/bay equiped, and fighters/SDB/mediun ships being the main strike arm.

See that the only Cruiser I know from canon (the one depicted in MT:Rebelion Sourcebook) would not be seen as a cruiser in human terms, as cruisers are (IIRC, sorry I cannot give the exact reference here) defined as "the smallest ships to mount a spinal weapon", and it does not. That makes me think that their idea of cruiser (and probably battleship, if they really use them) being different than human's.

 

[McPerth]

Even so, under HG Fighters are FAR from useless. Once the target ships computer, and or agility, are compromised, Fighters are a very inexpensive means to further EFFECTIVE combat.

This allows Capital Ships, and other major assets, to to engage more productive targets. Fighters continue to clean up. If and when a breakthrough to the reserve is make, Fighters are in their element. Also, if an opponent attempts to break off by acceleration, the Fighters can prevent this from occurring, prevent the breaking off ship from returning to the main battle, prevent the ship from effecting repair. In short, the Fighters are then in a position to finish off this ship at little cost to the main battle forces still engaged.

Fighters can break off at need and join their carrier in the outer system, safe from molestation. (Great tactic for screening the losing fleet, allowing Rider recovery in the reserve, and then jumping the fleet to safety from the reserve.)

Should someone opt to change the HG2 rules to prevent any of the above from working, just remember; there is president under later rules sets to eliminate the major factors working against the Fighter: Computer tonnage, and tonnage required for their Power Plants.

A loan Fighter is not a ship killer, a swarm are, when committed appropriately.

I disagree in most this point.

In HG2/MT, from the moment capital ship's defenses (mostly armor/dampers) cannot be overcome by small missiles batteries (those that a fighter may carry), fighters become all but useless in battle against them (with TL parity, off course).

Most downgrading such capital ships will endure will be in their weaponry, not in their computers or armor, and by the moment their dampers are so downgraded that fighter's missiles could damage them, they are probably lost anyway, and the fighter's mission of killing such downgraded ships can be also carried by escorts that are also usable in the first stages of combat.

MgT changes all that, and there you're right in all your points, and fighters (as you say used in swarms, as alone they are just targets) can be a big ship killer even as first line units.

I cannot talk about other Traveller versions, as I don't know them enough.

So I guess Aslan, to which, as I've already told, fighters may be quite appealling, are sure MgT fans (at least in what is HG related) .

 

[Vladika]

I disagree in most this point.

In HG2/MT, from the moment capital ship's defenses (mostly armor/dampers) cannot be overcome by small missiles batteries (those that a fighter may carry), fighters become all but useless in battle against them (with TL parity, off course).

Most doengrading such capital ships will endure will be in their weaponry, not in their computers or armor, and by the moment their dampers are so downgraded that fighter's missiles could damage them, they are probably lsot anyway, and the fighter's mission of killing such downgraded ships can be also carried by escorts that are also usable in the first stages of combat.

MgT changes all that, and there you're right in all your points, and fighters (as you say used in swarms, as alone they are just targets) can be a big ship killer even as first line units.

I cannot talk about other Traveller versions, as I don't know them enough.

So I guess Aslan, to which, as I've already told, fighters may be quite appealling, are sure MgT fans (at least in what is HG related) .

This is one of the things I truly love about this board. Friends are free to disagree and exchange philosophies.

A Small escort can't survive a secondary battery hit (<= factor 9). A properly designed Fighter can't be hit by one, other than a missile bay. IF that bay is used against a Fighter, the Fighter has already won a victory in that an EFFECTIVE major asset weapon was wasted on it. A bay missile is almost always better used in force reduction of enemy capital ships.

Additionally, not all missiles should be nukes.

Again, those "immune" Fighters have other missions that they can very cheaply perform as opposed the the "roman candle" small escorts. Also, not all fleet missions are set piece battles.

A few score Fighters can upset a great many plans.

Wish we lived closer. It's be nice to put both theories to the test. (Besides, I'd hope you would know the best place around for Paella.)

 

[savage]

Other than the Gurps book, BITS had a ships book, as I recall.

Aslan tech, if i look at the Travellermap, is not incredibly impressive.
The swarm may be the Aslan approach to expansion.

 

[Patron Zero]

Not meant as an intentional siding of the discuss or hijack but do have a question.

Do the Aslans field any troops into battle other than their own species ?

The reason I ask is that were the Aslan to field 'Janissaries' or some other conscripted-acquired non-Aslan species, then perhaps such could do the support roles beneath the Warrior caste mentioned.

Would their culture accept a 'foreign' legion of a sort to fight on the front-lines or is such an honor only bestowed upon the clans ?

 

[aramis]

Not meant as an intentional siding of the discuss or hijack but do have a question.

Do the Aslans field any troops into battle other than their own species ?

The reason I ask is that were the Aslan to field 'Janissaries' or some other conscripted-acquired non-Aslan species, then perhaps such could do the support roles beneath the Warrior caste mentioned.

Would their culture accept a 'foreign' legion of a sort to fight on the front-lines or is such an honor only bestowed upon the clans ?

The Aslan are "Cultural Imperialists" - they consider anyone who lives as an Aslan to be Aslan. There are human Aslan; they are, culturally, identical to biological Aslan, but don't have the modifications to physicals. Human Male Aslan need Tolerance and Independence to function outside aslan space, etc...

 

[whulorigan]

Do the Aslans field any troops into battle other than their own species ?

The reason I ask is that were the Aslan to field 'Janissaries' or some other conscripted-acquired non-Aslan species, then perhaps such could do the support roles beneath the Warrior caste mentioned.

Would their culture accept a 'foreign' legion of a sort to fight on the front-lines or is such an honor only bestowed upon the clans ?

The Aslan are "Cultural Imperialists" - they consider anyone who lives as an Aslan to be Aslan. There are human Aslan; they are, culturally, identical to biological Aslan, but don't have the modifications to physicals. Human Male Aslan need Tolerance and Independence to function outside aslan space, etc...

What about the renegade clans of the Glorious Empire? Might they use Human slave-troops?

 

[aramis]

What about the renegade clans of the Glorious Empire? Might they use Human slave-troops?

Probably not. But they'd certainly include biologically human Aslan in their troops.

 

[whulorigan]

Probably not. But they'd certainly include biologically human Aslan in their troops.

Actually, the Glorious Empire Aslan are effectively a "Fascist" Aslan state that enslaves non-Aslan. I am not sure that they would accept non-racial Aslan of any type as equals. (My primary source of info is the MgT: Aslan supplement).

 

[Carlobrand]

Actually, the Glorious Empire Aslan are effectively a "Fascist" Aslan state that enslaves non-Aslan. I am not sure that they would accept non-racial Aslan of any type as equals. (My primary source of info is the MgT: Aslan supplement).

That doesn't seem consistent with what's showing up in CT AM1, by which I infer that it is game-dependent.

 

[aramis]

Actually, the Glorious Empire Aslan are effectively a "Fascist" Aslan state that enslaves non-Aslan. I am not sure that they would accept non-racial Aslan of any type as equals. (My primary source of info is the MgT: Aslan supplement).

That would be utterly inconsistent with the CT, & MT presentations.

 

[whulorigan]

That doesn't seem consistent with what's showing up in CT AM1, by which I infer that it is game-dependent.

That would be utterly inconsistent with the CT, & MT presentations.

What are your sources for the CT & MT details of the Glorious Empire? I can't seem to remember where they are outlined (other than a political boundary name on the Charted Space Starmap).

The MgT details them as follows:

The Glorious Empire
The Tokouea’we clan was one of the first to migrate across the Great Rift during the Cultural Purge. Unable to settle in the existing Aslan colonies, they travelled onwards until they reached Goertal subsector. There, they embarked on an ambitious period of conquest. . . While the Tlaukhu had just outlawed slavery under the terms of the Grand Conclave, the Tokouea’we embraced it. Human slaves drove the expansion of the Tokouea’we clan, until it was the single greatest Aslan military power in the sector.
.
.
.
The Glorious Empire has survived, albeit somewhat diminished, to the present day and still enslaves humans for brute labour and cannon fodder.

 

[whulorigan]

Actually, the Glorious Empire Aslan are effectively a "Fascist" Aslan state . . .

Also, perhaps the term "fascist" was unwarranted. I seem to recall an MgT advert/promo for the product using that term somewhere.

 

[Tobias]

What are your sources for the CT & MT details of the Glorious Empire? I can't seem to remember where they are outlined (other than a political boundary name on the Charted Space Starmap).

The Glorious Empire is found in one issue of the Traveller's Digest, but there are very few details. The general gist of an oppressive empire with a human underclass is there, however. Mongoose just put a more extreme spin on it.

Generally, Mongoose attempted hard to insert a Kzinti/Kilrathi vibe into the traditional picture of the Aslan. I have mixed feelings about the result.

 

[savage]

Generally, Mongoose attempted hard to insert a Kzinti/Kilrathi vibe into the traditional picture of the Aslan. I have mixed feelings about the result.

I agree with you. I doubt the 3I / Aslan relationship would be positive if they we're crushing their human population. Not to mention the Solomani.
3I certainly would not have an Aslan Guard in the Palace.

 

[whulorigan]

I agree with you. I doubt the 3I / Aslan relationship would be positive if they we're crushing their human population. Not to mention the Solomani.
3I certainly would not have an Aslan Guard in the Palace.

Keep in mind in regard to my comments a few posts back:

The Glorious Empire Aslan are reviled by other Aslan Clans as a renegade clan. So the human slavery and oppression issue is one that the Hierate Aslan (on both sides of the Rift) and the Imperium would be in agreement over (and both would see the Glorious Empire as enemies). The Glorious Empire (as presented in MgT) does NOT represent the Aslan mainstream.

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind in regard to my comments a few posts back:

The Glorious Empire Aslan are reviled by other Aslan Clans as a renegade clan. So the human slavery and oppression issue is one that the Hierate Aslan (on both sides of the Rift) and the Imperium would be in agreement over (and both would see the Glorious Empire as enemies). The Glorious Empire (as presented in MgT) does NOT represent the Aslan mainstream.

It's the kind of "Blot on our honor" that would get all the inhati sent to kill the males and take the females as junior wives.

Especially since the Aslan drive is to aslanify all the universe.

 

[Carlobrand]

What are your sources for the CT & MT details of the Glorious Empire?

To be perfectly frank, I've never heard of the "Glorious Empire." I know of nothing in CT that mentions such an entity, though I caution that I've never paid much attention to things Aslan since they're quite a ways from the Marches, which is where my attention tends to get focused.

I observe that the Traveller Wiki entry on the "Glorious Empire" cites two sources: one issue of Traveller's Digest and one issue of something called the Third Imperium Fanzine. I assume there is also the uncredited Mongoose bit - does Mongoose canon get into the Wiki? Traveller Map does not appear to show a "Glorious Empire," but there's this unidentified polity outlined in Goertel subsector that corresponds to the Wiki map of the "Glorious Empire;" I presume that's intended to be it.

At any rate, it would appear that the "Glorious Empire" is limited to two magazine articles and Mongoose. As I said, game dependent. The "Glorious Empire", as near as I can tell, does not exist in CT unless a gamemaster takes a liking to one of those magazine articles and chooses to add them to his milieu.

Me personally, I have trouble reconciling the concept with the Aslan notions of honor. We're talking about a culture of trillions of sapients over a period of centuries, so it's not entirely impossible for some Aslan KKK subcult to appear on the scene at some point and stake out their territory. However, I can't see a "reviled" clan of Aslan "renegades" managing to survive in that little sandwich of territory for 469 years - there are just too many "regular" Aslan around them eager to win honor and territory. It would not take 469 years for that thin stretch of territory to get worn down to nothing by the neighbors who revile it so.

 

[rancke]

- does Mongoose canon get into the Wiki?

It does when you¹ enter it.

¹ Or somebody else, of course.​

At any rate, it would appear that the "Glorious Empire" is limited to two magazine articles and Mongoose. As I said, game dependent.

Whether you chose to incorporate a canon bit in your game is, of course, up to you. But if MgT printed it, it's part of the current canon.

The "Glorious Empire", as near as I can tell, does not exist in CT unless a gamemaster takes a liking to one of those magazine articles and chooses to add them to his milieu.

But we're not on the CT board.

Me personally, I have trouble reconciling the concept with the Aslan notions of honor. We're talking about a culture of trillions of sapients over a period of centuries, so it's not entirely impossible for some Aslan KKK subcult to appear on the scene at some point and stake out their territory. However, I can't see a "reviled" clan of Aslan "renegades" managing to survive in that little sandwich of territory for 469 years - there are just too many "regular" Aslan around them eager to win honor and territory. It would not take 469 years for that thin stretch of territory to get worn down to nothing by the neighbors who revile it so.

Except that it takes 2000 years for the Aslans to expand to fill 13 transrift subsectors, which indicates that the number of ihatei who make the crossing is very, very small (or that most of them kilkenny themselves once they're across). Evidently the Glorious Empire got a head start and became too powerful for any single ihatei fleet to handle. And we all know from AR1 that Aslans can't cooperate for aggressive operations. Interclan rivalries prevent it.


Hans