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Aslan: Battleships or Battleriders?

...Whether you chose to incorporate a canon bit in your game is, of course, up to you. But if MgT printed it, it's part of the current canon. ...

As I understand the several games, there are matters of canon that don't necessarily transcend the game they're in. GURPS has a whole lotta those, for example, starting with a living, breathing Strephon. I am most familiar with CT and becoming gradually more familiar with MT, but my knowledge of GURPS, Mongoose, TNE, T4, T5, and so on is very limited. If someone says something is canon for Mongoose, I trust that it is canon for Mongoose. Whether that means it automatically exports over into the CT universe as canon - well, knowing very little about the Mongoose end of things, I don't know the extent to which that is feasible or even desirable. Only Mongoose source I have is their High Guard, which is actually rather good but it would be very difficult to make some of that material translate over to CT. I can therefore only say that because it is canon for Mongoose but not mentioned in CT, it is game-dependent. Nothing stops any gamemaster from importing the material, any more than anything stops anyone from playing the GURPS milieu using the Megatrav rules.

If it is indeed the desire of the community to apply all of Mongoose canon to the CT universe, then I face a rather difficult dilemma - I can't afford all of those resources, and acquiring an entirely new rules system just to keep abreast of new developments in my old one is somewhat impractical. At least in the short term: I do have some interest in expanding my collection in that direction, but I'm thinking I want to explore a bit of T5 before I do that since T5 is rather emphatically being thrust into the CT universe as canon.

...But we're not on the CT board. ...

Nope, we're on the Fleet board, wherein I presume we discuss things fleetish, with no particular canon orientation, where the question arose whether the Aslan would field non-Aslan troops, presumably meaning troops of species other than the Aslan species, where Aramis points out that it's more a matter of culture than species to the Aslan - presumably drawing on canon as expressed in CT AM-1 - and where Whulorigan responds by pointing to a clan of Aslan in Mongoose who enslave other species. Which, as I say, makes it game dependent.

...Except that it takes 2000 years for the Aslans to expand to fill 13 transrift subsectors, which indicates that the number of ihatei who make the crossing is very, very small (or that most of them kilkenny themselves once they're across). Evidently the Glorious Empire got a head start and became too powerful for any single ihatei fleet to handle. ...

A careful viewing of the Traveller Map renders that hypothesis unsupportable. There are a total of 13 worlds within the borders of what I presume to be the "Glorious Empire": one pop code-9, two pop-8's, one pop-7, one pop-6, two pop 5's, two pop-4's, one pop-3, two pop-2's, one pop-1. In other words, about half the "Glorious Empire" can best be described as fruit ripe for the picking. Neighboring them are the aforementioned 13 subsectors full of Aslan worlds.

Powerful among the "Glorious Empire" worlds are - I'm sorry, is - Htourlao, a pop-9 TL E world with a class B port, not building interstellar merchantmen but I think we both agree they could probably build whatever warships they needed. The other high-pop worlds are going to have tech level headaches when someone comes trying to take those low-pop worlds away from them: pop-8 Syoakh is TL C, pop-8 Yero'ilra is TL 7, pop-7 Eikhaaw is TL 9, and below that they'd be doing good to hold onto their own world, much less defend a small neighbor.

Neighboring the "Glorious Empire" in Goertel subsector is Hliyh, a pop-A TL E world, very densely populated, very high tech. Wiki says Hliyh was liberated from the "Glorious Empire" in the "last decade" - presumable some time between 1100 and 1110.

Over trailing-ways, in the neighboring Tlaiowheredotheygetthesenames sector, there's Tyohk, a pop-A TL E Aslan world, and Tlaiowaha, a pop-9 TL E Aslan world - these are quite possibly the places the liberators came from.

Over spinward, in the neighboring Nora'a sector, there's Hreahrya, a pop-A TL D Aslan world, and neighboring Oaiah, a pop-8 TL D Aslan world.

Just to rimward in the Silraaine sector is Irlaiw, a pop-A TL D Aslan world.

In short, the "Glorious Empire," the reviled clan of renegades whose fate now depends on one high tech world with billions of sapients - some of whom are slaves - has tens of billions of Aslan within 11 parsecs of its borders who both hate it and have the power to do something about it.

Now, I do not suggest that the Aslan got together and decided to wage a massive crusade on the "Glorious Empire". I DO suggest that attrition is a deadly thing. The "Glorious Empire" is a reviled renegade clan. It lacks the strength to hold onto what it has. There are powerful neighbors from which forces hungry for land and honor can arise - and those neighbors didn't just show up yesterday. A war here, a war there, 469 years of that, it's a small wonder the "Glorious Empire" didn't meet its glorious end 200 years ago.

I have serious doubts whether that TL7 world could actually resist a space-faring Aslan clan. I'd have expected that cluster to go down when Hliyh got liberated, or very soon after. I'm inclined to believe at this point the "Glorious Empire" would consist only of Htourlao, Syoakh, and the cluster of worlds closest to those two - and I'm still rather surprised they've survived this long. The only thing I can make of it is maybe the neighboring clans don't actually see much glory in fighting the "Glorious Empire"; maybe there's such contempt for the empire of slavers that they only draw attention when something special reminds folk that they're there.

But, that's mostly my bored mind wandering aimlessly. You know me.
 
If someone says something is canon for Mongoose, I trust that it is canon for Mongoose.
I don't think there is any such thing as canon for Mongoose, unless it is the rules. But Mongoose has published some books about the Third Imperium setting (a.k.a. the OTU), and that would be canon for the Third Imperium setting. Which includes the Glorious Empire.

Whether that means it automatically exports over into the CT universe as canon - well, knowing very little about the Mongoose end of things, I don't know the extent to which that is feasible or even desirable.
The CT universe was superceded 30 years ago. I don't think MgT material apply to the CT universe. And I don't think it matters.


If it is indeed the desire of the community to apply all of Mongoose canon to the CT universe, then I face a rather difficult dilemma - I can't afford all of those resources, and acquiring an entirely new rules system just to keep abreast of new developments in my old one is somewhat impractical.
And there are probably newcomers who only buy MgT books and can't afford any CT books.

Nope, we're on the Fleet board, wherein I presume we discuss things fleetish, with no particular canon orientation, where the question arose whether the Aslan would field non-Aslan troops, presumably meaning troops of species other than the Aslan species, where Aramis points out that it's more a matter of culture than species to the Aslan - presumably drawing on canon as expressed in CT AM-1 - and where Whulorigan responds by pointing to a clan of Aslan in Mongoose who enslave other species. Which, as I say, makes it game dependent.
I think the general boards are primarily for discussing the current OTU. It seems to me counterproductive to mix up those parts of CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and MgT that contradicts each other. If I wanted to discuss the CT universe, I'd do it on the CT board.

A careful viewing of the Traveller Map renders that hypothesis unsupportable. There are a total of 13 worlds within the borders of what I presume to be the "Glorious Empire": one pop code-9, two pop-8's, one pop-7, one pop-6, two pop 5's, two pop-4's, one pop-3, two pop-2's, one pop-1. In other words, about half the "Glorious Empire" can best be described as fruit ripe for the picking. Neighboring them are the aforementioned 13 subsectors full of Aslan worlds.
But it is a historical fact that the fruit has been able to resist being picked for 1000 years. Which means that the history or the UWPs contradict each other. This isn't the only example of an interstellar state without the strength to fulfill the role assigned to it by history. Off the top of my head there are several Sword World states, the 40th Squadron, and the Commonality of Kedzudh. The Sword World worlds involved have been retconned, and I fully intend to submit the 40th Squadron and the Commonality for consideration once Don gets around to Gvurrdon. Now that you've pointed out the problem with the Glorious Empire, I will do the same when the Trojan Reach comes up for revision. (Whether anything will be done about any of them is, of course, up to Don and Marc. )

In short, the "Glorious Empire," the reviled clan of renegades whose fate now depends on one high tech world with billions of sapients - some of whom are slaves - has tens of billions of Aslan within 11 parsecs of its borders who both hate it and have the power to do something about it.
An alternate explanation is that the Imperium is protecting the Glorious Empire.


Hans
 
The mongoose aslan book makes it clear that the current extent of the glorious empire is considerably diminished from its peak.

they have been pushed out of Nora'a subsector I by the aslan and the Florians, they lost the worlds of Goetrel, Hrahraiu, Hteakya and Hliyh in the Goertel subsector in the last decade and another world a generation before, and they used to hold most of the worlds in the Silraaihe subsector N including 4 recently (last 300yrs).

The general blurb says the borders have moved 6 parsecs coreward as the empire makes up for lost worlds by conquering minor human worlds on the coreward border.

The blurb hints that the Gloroius empire will probably only last another couple of decades if the aslan carry on chipping away. The current maps are just a snapshot in time
 
...The CT universe was superceded 30 years ago. ...

NOOOOOOOO!

...I think the general boards are primarily for discussing the current OTU. It seems to me counterproductive to mix up those parts of CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and MgT that contradicts each other. If I wanted to discuss the CT universe, I'd do it on the CT board.

Ah. Duly noted. CT is passe', I shouldn't talk about CT anymore. I should get with the modern, learn how to text on my phone, start a Youtube page, maybe figure out how to program my VCR. ;)

(Yeah, like I'm gonna do any of that.:devil:)
 
The mongoose aslan book makes it clear that the current extent of the glorious empire is considerably diminished from its peak.

they have been pushed out of Nora'a subsector I by the aslan and the Florians, they lost the worlds of Goetrel, Hrahraiu, Hteakya and Hliyh in the Goertel subsector in the last decade and another world a generation before, and they used to hold most of the worlds in the Silraaihe subsector N including 4 recently (last 300yrs).

The general blurb says the borders have moved 6 parsecs coreward as the empire makes up for lost worlds by conquering minor human worlds on the coreward border.

The blurb hints that the Gloroius empire will probably only last another couple of decades if the aslan carry on chipping away. The current maps are just a snapshot in time

Ah, so they used to be respectable-sized, but now we're only seeing the last vestige of them.
 
Ah. Duly noted. CT is passe', I shouldn't talk about CT anymore.
Not at all. Talk all you want about CT, although personally I think it would be most appropriate to do so predominantly on the CT board. I just don't understand how you can blithely assume that the CTU is still the default setting, 30 years after TPTB stopped supporting CT. For one thing, it is a relatively sparsely documented setting that lacks 30 years' worth of further developments.

Now, if you ask Don about what is and what isn't canon, you would learn that some of the stuff that was produced for later Traveller versions is actually included. Quite a lot of it, actually.


Hans
 
Not at all. Talk all you want about CT, although personally I think it would be most appropriate to do so predominantly on the CT board. I just don't understand how you can blithely assume that the CTU is still the default setting, 30 years after TPTB stopped supporting CT. For one thing, it is a relatively sparsely documented setting that lacks 30 years' worth of further developments.

Now, if you ask Don about what is and what isn't canon, you would learn that some of the stuff that was produced for later Traveller versions is actually included. Quite a lot of it, actually.


Hans

CT has been in reprint since about 2002... until 2012.
And in digital from since about 2004.
And in POD since 2013.
It was only out of print from about 1990 to 2002.

There has never been a period where there wasn't a Traveller edition in print; CT has been available for most (25) of the 37 years since release.

And while it wasn't available from GDW since 1990, it's been readily available through the 90's either used or from distributors with back stock.

The other editions have much shorter reprint histories.
MT wasn't available electronically until 2004; it's not been reprinted in dead tree, and POD is 2013.
TNE wasn't available electronically until 2006 or so. POD 2013.
T4 wasn't available electronically until about 2008.
T20 was available dead tree and electronic from release (2006) until 2009. It will soon be available on CD again.
MGT has only been out since 2008...

CT was reprinted in dead tree longer than MGT has been out. Until 2006, it was the only dead tree "Certainly Canon" material available new.

CT also is the edition apparently getting the most play - MGT sells a lot more, but the surveys I've seen on other boards generally show MGT and GT (including GTIW) each as slightly behind CT in terms of player base.
 
CT has been in reprint since about 2002... until 2012.
And in digital from since about 2004.
And in POD since 2013.
It was only out of print from about 1990 to 2002.

There has never been a period where there wasn't a Traveller edition in print; CT has been available for most (25) of the 37 years since release.
Perhaps I'm using the term 'support' incorrectly. I meant that there hasn't been any new additions to the CTU setting since the switch to MT. That means that a large percentage of the current OTU -- our common frame of reference -- was published in non-CT books. It seems to me that the common forums should embrace everything that has been published about the setting and that dismissing anything that wasn't published in the CT days for no other reason than that it wasn't published in the CT days1, is fallacious, condescending, and wasteful.
1 I certainly do object to some things myself on the grounds that they're Just Plain Wrong, such as the "Lion Men of Mongo" look of the MgT Aslans.
Now, if I'm wrong about that and the CT setting does have a "special snowflake" status on the CotI boards, I'd very much appreciate an explanation why.

CT also is the edition apparently getting the most play - MGT sells a lot more, but the surveys I've seen on other boards generally show MGT and GT (including GTIW) each as slightly behind CT in terms of player base.
I'm not talking about using the rules. I know a lot of people think that the CT rules are the epitome of rules, never surpassed, never equalled, and while I don't agree with that, I accept that's that's how they feel. But I'm talking about the Third Imperium setting as it is today -- not how it was 30 years ago.


Hans
 
... It seems to me that the common forums should embrace everything that has been published about the setting and that dismissing anything that wasn't published in the CT days for no other reason than that it wasn't published in the CT days1, is fallacious, condescending, and wasteful. ...

And if I were indeed dismissing it, I would agree. However, it is not and was not my intention to divert the thread into an extended debate about what should or should not be discussed in the forum or what right language should be used when comparing or contrasting the various game systems. Perhaps if there is a need for such, we could start a new thread, and you may feel free to chastise me to your heart's content there. I promise I will read it. :D
 
And if I were indeed dismissing it, I would agree.
If you weren't dismissing it then you fooled me.

However, it is not and was not my intention to divert the thread into an extended debate about what should or should not be discussed in the forum or what right language should be used when comparing or contrasting the various game systems. Perhaps if there is a need for such, we could start a new thread, and you may feel free to chastise me to your heart's content there. I promise I will read it. :D
I didn't expect any debate or at least hoped there wouldn't be any. I hoped that pointing out that there is more to the OTU than what was published under the CT aegis would be enough to convince you that information drawn from later sources was valid for discussion on the general boards.

Note that I'm not laying down the law here, usurping the position of the moderators. I'm just expressing my own beliefs on what is and what isn't appropriate evidence. If I'm wrong, I'd appreciate it if a moderator would clear up any misunderstanding I may be laboring under.


Hans
 
If you weren't dismissing it then you fooled me.


I didn't expect any debate or at least hoped there wouldn't be any. I hoped that pointing out that there is more to the OTU than what was published under the CT aegis would be enough to convince you that information drawn from later sources was valid for discussion on the general boards.

Note that I'm not laying down the law here, usurping the position of the moderators. I'm just expressing my own beliefs on what is and what isn't appropriate evidence. If I'm wrong, I'd appreciate it if a moderator would clear up any misunderstanding I may be laboring under.


Hans

I personally do not believe you are laying down the law or usurping the position of the moderator. I believe you are a person of strong views who feels comfortable being candid and passionate in the expression of your views. That speaks well both of you and the forum, I think. However strongly you have ever stated yourself, I have never felt that you did not respect me or my right to express my views - just that you thought my views were sometimes incorrect, and occasionally grossly incorrect. That is to be expected when people of different backgrounds and experiences discuss any issue.

And I do apologize if I gave the wrong impression. Perhaps we could discuss this at length elsewhere.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=32889
 
Perhaps I'm using the term 'support' incorrectly. I meant that there hasn't been any new additions to the CTU setting since the switch to MT. That means that a large percentage of the current OTU -- our common frame of reference -- was published in non-CT books.

The last of the CT rules was actually published after MT's release - Book 8 postdates MT's release by 6 months or more.

During T20's playtest, it was always CT trumps later editions. I don't know if that was Hunter or Marc, but that is how it was.

Mongoose ignored later editions when putting together the MGT core... including the 1981 editions of CT core rules. It's built around the 1977 version.

Further, for many people, it's the only edition they know. And MT really didn't add much to the 3I. TNE added even less. Hence, CT is the place to look.

Oh, and T20 materials aside from the core were almost all dual-statted - CT & T20. So, "not supported" is actually quite wrong.
 
The last of the CT rules was actually published after MT's release - Book 8 postdates MT's release by 6 months or more.
That's a mere quibble.

During T20's playtest, it was always CT trumps later editions. I don't know if that was Hunter or Marc, but that is how it was.
So the Glorious Empire not having been mentioned in any CT publication would trump any mention in later versions? I think not.

And in any case that's not what Don has said several times.

Mongoose ignored later editions when putting together the MGT core... including the 1981 editions of CT core rules. It's built around the 1977 version.
I don't see the relevance.

Further, for many people, it's the only edition they know. And MT really didn't add much to the 3I. TNE added even less. Hence, CT is the place to look.
People who don't know any other edition can be informed of subsequent developments by those who know of them.

Oh, and T20 materials aside from the core were almost all dual-statted - CT & T20. So, "not supported" is actually quite wrong.
Again a quibble. It's close enough.


Hans
 
Yeah, sorry about that. When people make statements with which I disagree, I tend to respond.


Hans

Hans, not specifically you, just this one sure wandered.

Enough good points came out of this that maybe a mod will see fit to shift parts to their own thread?
 
Super late to the party, but GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 2 explicitly answers the OP's question:

GT:AR2 said:
The male preference for dewclaw-to-dewclaw fighting, and the hideous expense of capital ships, means that compared to a Human fleet, a typical clan navy has fewer, smaller ships. It is rare to encounter a cruiser or larger warship.

* * * * *​

Battleriders – warships with no jump drives, carried between systems by a jump-capable tender – are a popular solution to a clan’s naval procurement prob- lems. In peacetime, the battleriders can be deployed as system defense boats, and the tender as a bulk transport (carrying cargo pods instead of riders), thus helping to defray its costs.
And as someone suggested earlier in this thread, I'm sure the Aslan are big fans of fighters.
 
Aslan ihatei ideas

To cross rifts and take LAND, which is what they are compelled to do, requires high jump number ships, rift cruisers, strike cruisers, jump 5 TL 14 and TL 15 jump 6 when you can get them. These ships tend to have smaller spinal mounts, a bunch of secondary batteries, and pretty much no armor. All fuel. Dispersed structure fleet tenders with as many battle riders as can fit. The riders would be light cruiser sized with huge spinal mounts, fast, massive armor, agility, the best computers available, aka capital ship killers. I think a good compromise is, for the "riders" to carry a jump 1 drive and drop tanks, deploy riders and jump out immediately, leave no big juicy target of vulnerability lying around. The tender retreats to the rally point. Leave the tender somewhere "safe" within an easy jump 1. The riders deal with the target ships, and when and if things get to crazy the break off and jump out to rejoin their tender and tanker assets. A TL 14-15, light cruiser with jump 1 in high guard can carry enough internal/protected fuel for a jump 1 AND still have an awesome weapon load and still have room for agility, good screens and armor. They can pounce and still flee when over matched.
 
I thought it might be useful to see just what Aslan warships had appeared in various Traveller publications. I've not gone though everything I have yet, but here is a preliminary result. As I find more I will add them to this post if the editing system allows me to do so. Otherwise I will repost this list with updates.

Aslan Warships (By Source)

The Third Imperium (Fanzine)
Aslan Fighter (Yeawel Class) - Designed using High Guard/No deck plans
Aslan Troop Carrier (Hoeywea Class) - Designed using High Guard/No deck plans
Aslan Destroyer (Keawehei Class) - Designed using High Guard/No deck plans
Aslan Light Cruiser (Iroieah Class) - Designed using High Guard/No deck plans

Classic Traveller - Alien Module 1: Aslan

Aslan Escort (Ekawsiykua Class) - No deck plans
Aslan Cruiser (Asoitaoh Class) - No deck plans.

Mega Traveller - Solomani & Aslan

Aslan Escort (Ekawsiykua Class) - Same ship as appears in Alien Module 1: Aslan
 
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