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[tbeard1999]

I try to stay out of these hatchet fights because they do not involve me, but I really cannot keep silent on this anymore. This is the exact kind of post that gives this place the rep it has. And just so there is no mistake, this place as a rep of being completely and totally hostile to Mongoose Traveller, both the company that publishes it and those that like it.

While his tone was clearly hostile, the content of his criticisms are reasonable. Mercenary has outlandish ranges for artillery (p 105, second printing). In fact, they are *so* outrageous that I have to think that they are typos.

Anyhow, in the interest of amity, here are my opinions of the effective ranges of various weapons (TL9- data pulled from my research for A Fistful of TOWs):

EDIT: I moved this to a new thread.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=321406#post321406

 

[far-trader]

...just so there is no mistake, this place has a rep of being completely and totally hostile to Mongoose Traveller, both the company that publishes it and those that like it.

...I think that the MGT fans bear AT LEAST an equal share of the blame for this by pouncing on critics, deriding them as irrational Mongoose haters, hidebound grognards, etc.

I had to put these together to emphasize the point ty makes and state that I agree.

dmccoy states the rep this place has among Mongoose fans, in pretty extreme terms, terms that are far from the truth I'd like to point out. Like many reps, it is grossly exaggerated. I also hear some Mongoose fans saying it's up to us on CotI to fix that by not critisizing everything Mongoose does, or even more bluntly to just stfu. I'd say making such statements about the rep really doesn't help either, especially as it is patently wrong in such extreme terms.

I'm also worried you still believe the rep dmmcoy even when you've been told otherwise. Have a good look around some of the Mongoose and related threads here and you'll find grognards who are helpful and contributing and saying good stuff about Mongoose. Even some of the ones who complain the loudest about some of Mongoose.

It seems some Mongoose backers just can't or won't see that.

 

[tbeard1999]

Crap, I'm agreeing with Bill. Again.

Give people reason, explanations. Not excuses. Excuses infuriate people. Just ask my wife.

An explanation, plainly given, will at least tell people where you are coming from, whether or not they agree with you. They may not like it the reason, but at least it is honest.

And just to be clear where I'm coming from here. I like Mongoose Traveller. It isn't perfect (No Power Points for starships, grr). And I have little or no use for the OTU, aside from data-mining it.

And now I'll agree with you <yikes>.

Ironically, I don't even set my campaign in the OTU. And my campaign lacks a key feature of the OTU -- widespread gravitics. My TL12 Commonwealth Marines ride fusion powered tiltrotor gunships into battle and the main battle tanks have tracks, as God intended.

 

[far-trader]

In the past, dedicating a page to 'designer's notes' was a standard thing in Mongoose books, even scenarios, from time to time. I have been thinking about returning to that - can I presume that would have the Seal of Approval from you chaps?

Presuming I qualify as one of the chaps, HELL YES! I love designer notes!! I feel some (most? all!) publications are incomplete without at least a short note from the author/team stating a why or something about the product. And I agree, make that the lead page of any preview. It can't hurt and imo could be a great help both in heading off unwarranted complaints and in gaining sales.

Already Matt has (again?) undone my simmering ill will built up again recently, just by offering ideas and keeping communication open and reasoned (but see my next post before sending me flowers ).

 

[dmccoy1693]

While his tone was clearly hostile,

The rest of the post I referenced does not matter. This is where I was lost. The author's tone. And yes, there may or may not be mistakes in Merc (I haven't read it with any degree of depth so I cannot accurately comment on the subject.) It doesn't matter. The tone is the problem. The writer could have said the exact same thing without insulting the writer. As you have done in the rest of your post tbeard.

 

[far-trader]

I've noticed other publishers try to post stuff here and never return. They read what those that post here do to Mongoose and they're scared off.

This is certainly true - we have been contacted by these publishers who have said as much.

I'm curious Matt, have you done anything to disabuse them of this exaggerated rep they fear so much?

I've seen some Mongoose fans come here with nothing good to say about CotI and have tried to point out that there is a place here for them, they are welcome, and that they can find help and support, just look around. The latest case of it from what I could tell said fan didn't bother and simply continued on in willful ignorance with his bashing of CotI and several regulars. I'll also note that some Mongoose supporters, while coming down on the same CotI regulars didn't have word one to say about the obviously contributing Mongoose fan factor. That was a bit disappointing and looks bad from this side of the growing chasm. But again, thanks Matt for building the bridges as quickly as they are blown up.

 

[tbeard1999]

The rest of the post I referenced does not matter. This is where I was lost. The author's tone. And yes, there may or may not be mistakes in Merc (I haven't read it with any degree of depth so I cannot accurately comment on the subject.) It doesn't matter. The tone is the problem. The writer could have said the exact same thing without insulting the writer. As you have done in the rest of your post tbeard.

Perhaps -- and I don't know for sure -- he's been treated to a similarly disrespectful tone by MGT fans. I know that I have...

While this doesn't necessarily excuse his tone, it might explain it somewhat...

 

[MongooseMatt]

(or even the 140 pages you said would 'cost' no more than the standard 128 page book.)

It costs _you_ no more. It costs us a fair bit extra

 

[tbeard1999]

It costs _you_ no more. It costs us a fair bit extra

You mean...you have to pay for stuff?

Well that's a letdown. I thought that business owners just took the money out of the cash register and put it in their personal bank account each day...

 

[dmccoy1693]

I'm also worried you still believe the rep dmmcoy even when you've been told otherwise.

Writer's rule #1: Show. Don't tell.

And yes, I have seen plenty of people here give constructive criticism without insulting many of the fans. They're good. They're fine. They help. They are also not the problem.

If those that openly insult mongoose and those that work for mongoose simply stop doing that, this place would be 10 times better. Of course you would have to maintain that for a prolonged period of time (as any bad rap is hard to shake) before people believed otherwise. There's nothing wrong with asking why something was changed. There is nothing wrong with being unhappy about a change. There is however something very wrong with accusing someone of changing something because they didn't know what they were talking about before finding out the truth.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Well that's a letdown. I thought that business owners just took the money out of the cash register and put it in their personal bank account each day...

You can do that for a bit, but you tend to end up in jail.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I'm curious Matt, have you done anything to disabuse them of this exaggerated rep they fear so much?

It isn't the rap they fear. Its what they see with their eyes that scares them off. Publishers tend to be a brave lot. (Ok, well anyone that starts their own business tends to be brave, but that's besides the point.) But few are going to readily walk into a firestorm that they do not have to.

 

[tbeard1999]

You can do that for a bit, but you tend to end up in jail.

Or at least fleeing from your trade creditors...

 

[dmccoy1693]

While this doesn't necessarily excuse his tone, it might explain it somewhat...

"Who's evolved?"
*Sheepishly* "I am."
"Who's evolved?"
*Proudly* "I am!"
-Night at the Museum, conversation between Robin Williams and Ben Stiller.

 

[far-trader]

Not directly to you dmccoy, but in general, using your points as the sounding board...

Writer's rule #1: Show. Don't tell.

So I have to spoon feed someone by linking them to posts that may not interest them? If I thought it would help I would. If the poster replied to my "look around" with a "where" I would probably take the time to find and offer a specific thread as an example. When said poster doesn't even appear to be reading such suggestions there doesn't seem much point.

And yes, I have seen plenty of people here give constructive criticism without insulting many of the fans. They're good. They're fine. They help. They are also not the problem.

And they are the majority by far.

If those that openly insult mongoose and those that work for mongoose simply stop doing that, this place would be 10 times better.

Agreed, but people need to put it in perspective (I know, I have hard time practicing that myself) and realize it is a minority causing the problem. Time to stop throwing out the baby with the bathwater is what I'm saying. Stop spreading this false rep. You don't have to sing high praises of CotI to all and sundry. Just stop maligning it, and permitting those who do to do so without being set right.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I'm curious Matt, have you done anything to disabuse them of this exaggerated rep they fear so much?

In all honesty, we can't. These guys have come here, had a look around, and promptly left. It _is_ unfair to the majority of people here but while there are one or two (and it is just one or two) real twits around who cannot control themselves, what can we do?

 

[MongooseMatt]

It seems some Mongoose backers just can't or won't see that.

Their issue is that they do not agree with certain core arguments, such as bay weapons, to pick one. When someone then comes along and tells them that they are playijng the game wrong (a game they are quite enjoying), it gets people's backs up. When every other post does the same thing, they get completely tee'd off.

It is quite a natural reaction.

 

[far-trader]

It isn't the rap they fear. Its what they see with their eyes that scares them off. Publishers tend to be a brave lot. (Ok, well anyone that starts their own business tends to be brave, but that's besides the point.) But few are going to readily walk into a firestorm that they do not have to.

I find that hard to believe. Really. While the hot topics are certainly the big ones there are more good threads than bad, and even within the hot ones most of the posts are constructive and reasoned. It has often been only after protracted reasoned questions and explanations continue to be refuted as blind Mongoose hate that things really get warm.

I just can't believe that these publishers have had an honest look at CotI and then decided "it's tooo flamey and scary there". It seems much more obvious that they have simply heard stories maligning CotI as a seething hotbed of Mongoose hate. And I've seen that said on Mongoose's own forum, snidely remarked more than once, and not taken to task by anyone in authority. I seem to recall before I left that some (myself included) did speak up, only to be shouted down.

So again I'll ask, but let me include you too this time dmccoy, what have you done to set the record right and disabuse this rep? Or do you still believe it? Do you want me to show you?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Goal: Distinguishing Aslan psionics from that of other races (Like, for instance, the Hivers who don't have any at all). StwnicPPM: Let Aslan psionic powers remain as previously described, worse than those of Humans but better than those of Hivers.

That wasn't the goal.

It's a big Galaxy, but the Aslans are a single species well-known to the scientists of Charted Space, who have had almost three millenia to study them. Not everything can happen. Suddenly discovering that the Aslans breathe chlorine can't happen.

No, but discovering a lost clan in newly explored territory that breathe chlorine _is_. Crap example, but the whole point of Traveller is to explain things like this.

The accumulated knowledge of 2,500 years, as it were.

You really are bordering on sarcasm

So if all the credible experts agree with one person and only a few crackpots agree with the other, their obvious biases will leave you in doubt about which one you can trust?

Well, no, there would be no point in doing that. Having two credible experts take different views, however, is interesting.

It can be very effective, as long as it is made clear what is what. I don't think a setting book should do viewpoint writing without making it absolutely clear that that's what it is. It's not fair to referees, who are entitle to know what is true and what isn't.

In this case, it is up to the referee to make the decision he wants - that is the whole point of writing in that fashion. Spoonfeeding readers while providing differing views is _really_ not the point.

Besides, it remains a mystery only until someone writes an official adventure where the disputed fact is resolved. If the xenologist's report is wrong, the first time you meet a psionic Aslan will prove it.

Then it is either a big 'reveal', or you leave it ambiguous. Jeez, not everything has to be black and white!

Is maintaining consistency of ANY importance to you?

About 'this' much, sure.

So why do it?

Why not?

 

[MongooseMatt]

I find that hard to believe. Really.

I just can't believe that these publishers have had an honest look at CotI and then decided "it's tooo flamey and scary there".

It is true. Seriously. They've told me.