Yey, the Zhodani win
No, we are bringing the Hivers in, as part of a Minbari alliance.
Aslan Preview
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
- Status
No, we are bringing the Hivers in, as part of a Minbari alliance.
Because it's inconsistent with what has come before, and the space used could be better used to provide the needed rule for Aslan psionics just as easily, and not tick off grogs.
That's why I'm here. We are not going to document every single change within each book (most people really don;t care and will begin getting irritated at all those box texts), but anyone is free to ask me anything here.
dmccoy1693
SOC-13
Appreciated that you said this upfront.
It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch as a different saying goes. And yes, you are right. The number of people here that are "ok" with MGT and genuinely want to help vastly outnumber those that are here for little more purpose than to cause trouble. But those that just want to cause trouble are loud and noticible.
I'm about to state something really crazy (and is completely true): I believe in you guys. That's why I am here and keep coming back here. I believe that you want the best for your game and Traveller as a whole. That's why you do the things you do. I believe that through all the negativity, there is something here you love. Deep down. Its that love and passion that all of you obviously have that I keep coming back for.
But we took psionics out! That was the point!!!
Going strictly by the rules of COTI, the problem for publishers is even more serious (and fundamental) than that. ALL advertisements should be approved by Hunter before being posted. Unfortunately, I am still waiting for a response to a Fall 2008 e-mail/PM requesting permission to advertise a project that I worked on and post T20 stats for the starship.
Obviously I have moved on, but the communication problem for other publishers is undoubtedly the same.
Fears of firestorm are IMHO unfounded. Unless you are changing a rule with the aparently glib attitude of 'because I can', there should be little firestorm directed at you. One needs to be able to look past the attitude and address the meat of what is said and accept that many people that you meet will have past injuries (real or percieved) that color how they present themselves - not unlike the real world.
With respect to those intent on shouting past each other, I suggest that you simply ignore them - it's not your fight.
While I do not know about publishers, I know quite a number of new Mon-
goose Traveller players who found this forum through means like Google,
took a close look at it, and decided not to register because they found the
atmosphere unfriendly (... "adult guys insulting each other ...") and the con-
tent (" ... OTU only ...") not interesting enough to spend their spare time in
such an atmosphere.
Fair enough, and perfectly reasonable. I wouldn't expect you to document all changes. Just the big ones.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Figured you and most would get it but caution and clarity in flame territory can't hurt
True, and fair, and perhaps we are not doing enough to deal with it.
Thanks, sincerely, for all that. I wish more had the same insight and attitude.
May I ask (I know
), and fully anticipating the answer, is this something that took a little time to develop? Did you have to actually dig around CotI a bit and not make a snap judgment based on one or two posts at the end of a long simmered to boil thread to come to this crazy conclusion? Actually, I find this somewhat amusing, since from what I've heard, the Mongoose forums are rather hostile to the grognards... That is, however, not personal experience; at least not for the most part. But from I did see, (some time back, things may have changed) that was the case.
And as for the OTU only, there's even an IMTU forum! The only problem comes if it looks like you're talking about the OTU, and you aren't.
Matt,
Seal of Approval? You begin adding designers notes again and I'll turn backflips.
Regards,
Bill
dmccoy1693
SOC-13
I try not to stick my nose in where I do not feel it is required. This is one of the few times that I went against that. The rest of your post, I hope I answered with the above post.
True story. The day I decided to be a traveller writer was the day Mongoose announced that they were going to publish it. A few days later on RPG.net, I started a thread/poll asking people what kinds of products they wanted to see. Either the first or second response I got was something like I want Traveller fans to stop fighting with each other over which version is the best or something like that. I didn't think to highly of the post at the time. About 20 pages later, I was in the middle of a major brawl with old time traveller players that were insisting that Hexadecimal was the heart and soul of Traveller and Mongoose will go down in flames if they do not go with that. That didn't scare me off. But I tend to walk over hot coals barefoot and jump out of airplanes with some silk to keep me from going splat. I did however give serious consideration to not giving a damn about legacy traveller players. Overtime I learned that skirmishes/flamewars/etc such as that is merely one of the quirks the Traveller crowd. Now I accept that. Had I not taken the trail I had, I might very well have been scared off.
Last edited:
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Fair enough, and generally a good ethic.
Indeed, thanks again, we were composing at the same time which mooted much (or all) of my follow on post
What a useful remark. Really advanced the discussion.
I beg you pardon. Your goal was to avoid a situation where all major alien races had psionics to one degree or another, and making the Aslan non-psionic was a means to reach that goal. A goal that had already been reached, since, according to canon, the Hivers are not psionic.
Must... resist... urge... to... be... overly... sarcastic...
You say that like it's a bad thing.You really are bordering on sarcasm
Yes, but if the combined weight of 2,500 years of scientific evidence has failed to turn up credible evidence of psionic Aslans, no credible expert would clain that it was a well-known, albeit rare, phenomenon, and if psionic Aslans were known, albeit rare, no credible expert will claim that's it's unknown. One of the two remains credible only until the matter is settled. Which a single statement in the authorial voice will do. At that point Shrödinger's Expert dissapears in a cloud of logic.
But that's not the way you're writing it, to judge from the preview. The information is presented as authorial voice, and that information says that there are no credible reports of Aslan psionics.
You're trying to have it two ways. On the one hand, you've changed it, and you intended to change it. Fair enough. But now you're suddenly trying to say that maybe you didn't change it, maybe that text was just the report of some crackpot ethnologist with an axe to grind.
No, but information that individuals have ready access to in-universe should be black and white.
Any chance you'd deign to give me a serious answer? Pretty please?
Hans
A thought on Psionic Aslan:
When I played AD&D (first edition), I was always amazed at the number of fighters with exceptional strength. Statistically less than 1% of the rolls should have come up as 18s (the exact chance varies with the method used to create attributes) yet, in my experience, about 50% of PC Fighters had exceptional strength.
NO edition of Traveller describes Psionics in general as ‘common’ and ABSOLUTELY NO version of Traveller implies that Psionic Aslan would represent something even un-common. Even among the two clans mentioned, Psionic Aslan Assassins must be rare [can any reasonable case be made for a clan in which even 10% of the adult population is a Psionic Assasin?]
Yet the inclusion of rules for Psionic Aslan in MgT:Aslan would surely have resulted in the same statistical ‘anomaly’ as AD&D fighters with exceptional Strength (greater than 18). In this case, it could actually be argued that the MgT rule that NO PLAYERS CAN BE PSIONIC ASLAN (0%) is closer to the historic cannon reality of VERY VERY FEW (say less than 1%) of all Aslan being Psionic than the perhaps 10% PC Psionic Aslan that would have been created by the inclusion if rules specially for Psionics in Aslan.
Like Computers or 50 ton Bays on 500 ton ships (in CT), Psionic Aslan are easily house ruled for IMTU use – Just use the material in Psion for an Aslan, and color it done. Frankly, Mongoose left the door open for your Psionic Aslan Assasins with the talk about genetics and mythical stories. Even the real life Ninja of feudal Japan had reputed abilities more tied to superstition than reality – Why would a clan of Psionic Aslan Assassins be less shrouded in myth.
PERSONALLY, I am opposed to the Mongoose decision for two non “Official Traveller Universe” reasons:
First, I started with Classic Traveller, and still view Traveller (including MgT) as a vehicle for recreating the adventures of classic sci-fi literature. One can not seriously view a race of warrior felines without seeing the inspiration of Niven in there. Psionics are included in the richness granted us by Niven’s work and his views on the cat society towards a psionic member and the Psionic Cat towards his gift are too rich a role-playing legacy to be lightly discarded.
Second, previous editions of Traveller have given us some fascinating rules that make a Psionic Aslan different from a Psionic Human. For a new player to MgT familiar with the Kzin, the loss of this data from MgT cannon slightly diminishes his options and requires the Referee to create rules from scratch or use MgT: Psion and make psionic cats more like psionic humans. While not a reason to beat our chests in lament, it hardly seems like a reason to celebrate.
AND YET, I fully acknowledge the right of Mongoose to make this change and accept their decision hoping that their alien tapestry will offer new Aslan inspirations that players can use.
When I played AD&D (first edition), I was always amazed at the number of fighters with exceptional strength. Statistically less than 1% of the rolls should have come up as 18s (the exact chance varies with the method used to create attributes) yet, in my experience, about 50% of PC Fighters had exceptional strength.
NO edition of Traveller describes Psionics in general as ‘common’ and ABSOLUTELY NO version of Traveller implies that Psionic Aslan would represent something even un-common. Even among the two clans mentioned, Psionic Aslan Assassins must be rare [can any reasonable case be made for a clan in which even 10% of the adult population is a Psionic Assasin?]
Yet the inclusion of rules for Psionic Aslan in MgT:Aslan would surely have resulted in the same statistical ‘anomaly’ as AD&D fighters with exceptional Strength (greater than 18). In this case, it could actually be argued that the MgT rule that NO PLAYERS CAN BE PSIONIC ASLAN (0%) is closer to the historic cannon reality of VERY VERY FEW (say less than 1%) of all Aslan being Psionic than the perhaps 10% PC Psionic Aslan that would have been created by the inclusion if rules specially for Psionics in Aslan.
Like Computers or 50 ton Bays on 500 ton ships (in CT), Psionic Aslan are easily house ruled for IMTU use – Just use the material in Psion for an Aslan, and color it done. Frankly, Mongoose left the door open for your Psionic Aslan Assasins with the talk about genetics and mythical stories. Even the real life Ninja of feudal Japan had reputed abilities more tied to superstition than reality – Why would a clan of Psionic Aslan Assassins be less shrouded in myth.
PERSONALLY, I am opposed to the Mongoose decision for two non “Official Traveller Universe” reasons:
First, I started with Classic Traveller, and still view Traveller (including MgT) as a vehicle for recreating the adventures of classic sci-fi literature. One can not seriously view a race of warrior felines without seeing the inspiration of Niven in there. Psionics are included in the richness granted us by Niven’s work and his views on the cat society towards a psionic member and the Psionic Cat towards his gift are too rich a role-playing legacy to be lightly discarded.
Second, previous editions of Traveller have given us some fascinating rules that make a Psionic Aslan different from a Psionic Human. For a new player to MgT familiar with the Kzin, the loss of this data from MgT cannon slightly diminishes his options and requires the Referee to create rules from scratch or use MgT: Psion and make psionic cats more like psionic humans. While not a reason to beat our chests in lament, it hardly seems like a reason to celebrate.
AND YET, I fully acknowledge the right of Mongoose to make this change and accept their decision hoping that their alien tapestry will offer new Aslan inspirations that players can use.
Last edited:
RandyT0001
SOC-13
Did you read through the series of relative threads or skim through them all until you found that post by me. This isn't about something in the rules to which I disagree. Matt had requested I withdraw a comment I made and I countered with my own request which Matt responded to by saying I had insulted one of his writers, good-bye, end of discussion. His lack of a direct quote of what he considers to be the insult appears to me that he's just trying avoid making his apology to me first.
Other people on this board have already made comments as to how Mongoose seems reluctant to admit mistakes even when more than just one person presents it. Add to that Frody's general attitude in recent posts in this thread where he metaphorically swings his bat and balls around by suggesting that Mongoose has the Traveller license and will change canon however it wishes and piss on you ole previous version Grogs. (Yeah, he had some similes but I still sense it wasn't done in jest to the degree he presented, ie it was really very little tongue in cheek.)
So it wasn't me that really started this particular episode dmccoy. It was Frody's assertation that Mongoose writers are well versed in what they write about despite the fact that even he as the 'fixer' of Mercenary, he couldn't find the ten to tweny minutes of online time to check what the artillery ranges of modern weapons are (as can be seen in Ty post here).
Hans,
Yes, that could be done but it will lead to...
... that exact result. It's called the Kinunir Effect: a change so broad in scope that it invalidates everything that comes before it.
HG2 invalidated the Kinunir-class in every in-game sense. There is no plausible way those vessels can be called "battlescruisers", there is no plausible way that they can be used in the line of battle, there is no plausible way to explain their poor weapons load, there's even no plausible way to explain why on was given the to Vegans. HG2 turned the Kinunirs from pretty nasty warships to the third eye in Traveller's forehead.
Here's the kicker: HG2 enough of an improvement and invalidated so relatively little, that the game is better having HG2 than not. The question now becomes whether MgT; HG is enough of an improvement to accept the changes it creates. My jury is still out on that question, it will take a lot of designing and gaming to make the decision.
It's routinely pointed out that every edition of Traveller has changed the way ships are built. Hell, CT even did so within an edition. What is missing however is that there are changes and then there are changes. Eerything depends on the "size" of the change, on comparing what the change adds to the game against what it detracts from the game.
MT's changes to fuel usage is a good example of this. The change in powerplant fuel requirements is a small change, we can tweak previous designs to accommodate it. The change in jump fuel is a change on the level of the Kinunir Effect. You can no longer tweak the designs, you have to completely redesign them instead because there is no plausible explanation for pre-MT ship designs.
TNE's HEPlaR is another change on the level of the Kinunir Effect and I believe MgT's handling of bay weapons may be too.
Yes, I do. However, we both already understand this aspect of the issue, don't we?
And that's what shoots down the Well people have built dumb things and done dumb things in the past explanation. Yup, HMS Sheffield used a vitally important antenna for two very different things and she was lost because of that. Yup, we designed and built the Tacoma Narrows bridge only to see it shake itself apart in a few months. Yup, Nazi Germany built huge tanks without machineguns, both the RN and USN built torpedo rams, the US built a ship with three pneumatic dynamite guns, Morton Thiokol forget that o-rings freeze, the RN had a series of steam driven subs in WW1 and others that carried a single battleship-sized naval rifle, and people have been doing stupid things for as long as there have been people.
But people aren't stupid all the time and stupid decisions are eventually caught and corrected, especially in war.
The MgT handling of bay weapons means that every pre-MgT warship design is going to have to be reworked. Period. The advantage gained by having more bay-sized weapons is simply too great that no competent navy would have built them and even a stupid navy would have seen the light after getting slapped around. The old designs must be up-gunned if we're to believe they still exist. I suspect all we'll be able to save are the class names and the broad brushstrokes regarding performance. The MgT version of the P.F. Sloan-class escort is not going to resemble the pre-MgT version very much.
It's now a matter of seeing whether or not the other advantages of MgT: HG are worth the rework it imposes on thirty years of warship design. That question still has to be answered.
Regards,
Bill
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Off topic drift but while I noticed the same thing, in our group at least it was obvious why. When we rolled an 18 (or 17 plus race bonus for Dwarves iirc) for strength we almost always made that character a fighter. BAM! Roll percentile strength bonus. Not always but usually.
The comparison here would be more appropriate if players were rolling their PSI stat as the first part of character creation and then choosing race and class. And if I rolled a 12 for PSI and wanted to play an Aslan, and then were told "Aslan can't be psionic." because the ref chooses the literal (or in their interpretation) rule as "NO Aslan PCs can have PSI".
Or something like that. (hmm, was that gasoline or water??)
dmccoy1693
SOC-13
Who started it doesn't matter. You could have said the same without being insulting. Be respectful. Even when you are telling someone else that they are wrong (even if they are completely wrong), don't insult someone in the process.
Take this discussion between us as an example. I am commenting on your actions, not on you.
Always remember to be Ben Stiller and not the monkey. When asked "Who's evolved?" proudly say, "I am!"
- Status
Similar threads
