Aspects of the Rebellion Era that snap people's disbelief suspenders

[Antony]

Then just why is it that the Aslan apparently did not go rimward, much softer targets, plenty of worlds, no big imperial fleet to interfear. What is there are mixed client states - both Aslan and Human, little polities and independent worlds. What kept them out.

If they did go that way then there must have been an awful lot of Aslan population pressure.

 

[Elliot]

The story of the Glorious Empire might be worth telling - it was an Aslan break away slaver empire that kept its human inhabitants in squallor. In some respects it was an offence to all things Aslan - it is entirely conceivable that the rimward clans of the TR decided to move on the Glorious Empire a long time before Strephon's death and had made long contact with resistance within the Empire.

OK - that's not in the three sources that describe the Glorious Empire but its not not mentioned and its also implausible and it makes its swift fall very plausible.

 

[Antony]

Then just why is it that the Aslan apparently did not go rimward, much softer targets, plenty of worlds, no big imperial fleet to interfear. What is there are mixed client states - both Aslan and Human, little polities and independent worlds. What kept them out.

If they did go that way then there must have been an awful lot of Aslan population pressure.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
I am purely talking about forces that are already "here". There is no great migration from across the Rift. This is simply the forces and clans available who are already on "this" side of the Rift.

The clans on the far side of the Rift wouldn't give a rat's @$$ about the DoD. They may not even really know the DoD (as such) even exists. The only clans I have involved in the whole things are those that are right there and already immediately involved.

And they're still split into hundreds of mutually hostile clans. Just how fast do you think they can manage to reach an agreement that leaves them feeling safe enough to send off their forces to fight further away from their home than the massed fleets of the Domain (in Vilis) is from the rimward border? And do you really think that the Domain is entirely without intelligence assets in the Aslan Hierate? And that Norris will chose to keep his ships on guard against a threat that shows every sign of not showing up instead of meeting a threat like that?

And they should have plenty of economic power. Just in the Trojan reaches they have TL D worlds with 80 billion and 90 billion Aslan. They have two other hi-pop worlds of TL E. They don't need anyone from across the Rift in order to be a huge thorn in the side of the DoD.

And the Domain of Deneb has as many people living on its TL15 worlds alone, before we even get to the TL 14 and 13 worlds. According to TCS expert Steve Higginbotham TL 15 ships have a 3-1 advantage over TL 14 ships and a 5-1 advantage over TL 13 ships.

Then there's the whole problem of fighting a war 30 parsecs from your supply base with allies that you know you're likely to get into a fight with as soon as the present war is over. Remember, if a clan loses disproportionately many ships, it becomes a target to its neighbors. Who still, IMO. would prefer conquests right next door to conquests 30 parsecs off.

BTW, how many of those Aslan worlds belong to clans that are friendly or neutral towards the Imperium?

Again, I am only really talking about "local" Aslan here. That is why I have continuously refered to "Aslan clans" and not the Hierate. The Hierate is probably barely even aware of what was going on, and probably would have disapproved of it.

Side issue: Just what is the difference between the Hierate and Aslan clans?

The Floriani didn't fall.

OK, my mistake. But all the better if they didn't fall.

And there was a lasting impact. There are a small handful of worlds [quick count shows four] in the Glisten subsector that retained Aslan populations, governments, and names, even though they belong to the Regency.

Ooops. So there is. I had overlooked them. Well, let's have a look at them.

Aster had 40,000 inhabitants and were invaded by, say, 400,000 (a population expansion of 3% pa. for 80 years will make 400,000 Aslans grow to 4 the million there are in 1202). That can easily be explained.

Craw was invaded by mllions of Aslans who subsequently regressed technologically to TL 3. Well, that sure sounds like something that's worth preserving.

Sorel had a similar experience.

Low-population, no-government Wurzburg was invaded by a few thousand Aslans. That can easily be explained too.

There are several such Regency worlds in the Trojan Reaches.

Yeah, like Cyan who had its 5 billion people replaced by 2 billion Aslans. Atrocity time. Hmm... maybe Cyan had a lot of Aslans living there to begin with. That would require ignoring the lack of an 'A:X' notiation for Cyan in 1117, but it could explain it.

You're right, there are a few results of an Aslan invasion, but the results are either possible to explain without an invasion or middling to highly implausible. I notice that RS speaks of Imperial (ie. Domain) weakness in 1122! After being on a war footing for five years without the Zhodani showing up, the Domain is still sending all its spanking new ships to Vilis? I don't think so.

There is no set of human populated "buffer" worlds. In the RSB you have the Regency, (presumably) the Floriani, and almost all the rest of the Trojan Reaches is controlled by the Aslan.

And I have no problem with that.

So there was a lasting impact.

Agreed. I was wrong there. I still maintain that there was no lasting impact that was not either explainable without an general Aslan invasion[*] or more or less implausible and ripe for a canon fix.

[*] Please note: I've never been opposed to a few dozen forays by overly optimistic ihatei admirals nor to a few low-probability successes.


Hans

 

[Vargas]

I see the point at which disbelief fails to be suspended as an individual threshold based, in the main, on personal tastes. To that end, here are my suspender snappers . . .

The conspiracy to neutralize the loyal guards and Scout protection force surrounding Strephon is 100% effective; no slip ups.

The Illelish Guard is 100% loyal to a man and utterly onboard with treason.

No member of the nobility on Capital steps up and tries to assume power.

None of the nobles running the Navy manage to rally any ships to their side and attempt to put down the Rebellion.

No one within the Scouts or MoJ attempts . . . anything really.

Lucan is always 100% effective in dispatching his opponents and is considered so fearsome that no one else with any political stake in the Imperium mounts a significant challenge?

 

[Vargas]

I see the point at which disbelief fails to be suspended as an individual threshold based, in the main, on personal tastes. To that end, here are my suspender snappers . . .

The conspiracy to neutralize the loyal guards and Scout protection force surrounding Strephon is 100% effective; no slip ups.

The Illelish Guard is 100% loyal to a man and utterly onboard with treason.

No member of the nobility on Capital steps up and tries to assume power.

None of the nobles running the Navy manage to rally any ships to their side and attempt to put down the Rebellion.

No one within the Scouts or MoJ attempts . . . anything really.

Lucan is always 100% effective in dispatching his opponents and is considered so fearsome that no one else with any political stake in the Imperium mounts a significant challenge?

 

[Vargas]

I see the point at which disbelief fails to be suspended as an individual threshold based, in the main, on personal tastes. To that end, here are my suspender snappers . . .

The conspiracy to neutralize the loyal guards and Scout protection force surrounding Strephon is 100% effective; no slip ups.

The Illelish Guard is 100% loyal to a man and utterly onboard with treason.

No member of the nobility on Capital steps up and tries to assume power.

None of the nobles running the Navy manage to rally any ships to their side and attempt to put down the Rebellion.

No one within the Scouts or MoJ attempts . . . anything really.

Lucan is always 100% effective in dispatching his opponents and is considered so fearsome that no one else with any political stake in the Imperium mounts a significant challenge?

 

[aramis]

I've always assumed the Ihaiti invasion is not a military campaign, but rather, thousands of aslan arriving in cold-sleep (at half a ton each, that CAN be quite a few)... and then squatting on backwater continents. Paying local taxation, kind of--- token payments in goods sufficient to ally "Takeover" fears... and few and slow enough (a ship or two a month per world) that it doesn't LOOK like an invasion, until one counts the THOUSANDS of ships.

Why the Imperium? Because the Imperium will let them become citizens, and yet remain culturally aslan. Because they won't be run off for just looking.

Ad heck, many times, i suspect the ships land, saying they want to observe a required ritual n an undeveloped section of land, then do that ritual while thawing the passengers, then moving on to trade locally.

Why would the women let the men spend the money? Because it is a point of honor to be able to "Spare" a few ships for Ihati. It is the "right and proper aslan thing"...

 

[aramis]

I've always assumed the Ihaiti invasion is not a military campaign, but rather, thousands of aslan arriving in cold-sleep (at half a ton each, that CAN be quite a few)... and then squatting on backwater continents. Paying local taxation, kind of--- token payments in goods sufficient to ally "Takeover" fears... and few and slow enough (a ship or two a month per world) that it doesn't LOOK like an invasion, until one counts the THOUSANDS of ships.

Why the Imperium? Because the Imperium will let them become citizens, and yet remain culturally aslan. Because they won't be run off for just looking.

Ad heck, many times, i suspect the ships land, saying they want to observe a required ritual n an undeveloped section of land, then do that ritual while thawing the passengers, then moving on to trade locally.

Why would the women let the men spend the money? Because it is a point of honor to be able to "Spare" a few ships for Ihati. It is the "right and proper aslan thing"...

 

[aramis]

I've always assumed the Ihaiti invasion is not a military campaign, but rather, thousands of aslan arriving in cold-sleep (at half a ton each, that CAN be quite a few)... and then squatting on backwater continents. Paying local taxation, kind of--- token payments in goods sufficient to ally "Takeover" fears... and few and slow enough (a ship or two a month per world) that it doesn't LOOK like an invasion, until one counts the THOUSANDS of ships.

Why the Imperium? Because the Imperium will let them become citizens, and yet remain culturally aslan. Because they won't be run off for just looking.

Ad heck, many times, i suspect the ships land, saying they want to observe a required ritual n an undeveloped section of land, then do that ritual while thawing the passengers, then moving on to trade locally.

Why would the women let the men spend the money? Because it is a point of honor to be able to "Spare" a few ships for Ihati. It is the "right and proper aslan thing"...

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
I've always assumed the Ihaiti invasion is not a military campaign, but rather, thousands of aslan arriving in cold-sleep (at half a ton each, that CAN be quite a few)...

The operative word being few. A typical ihatei squadron consists of two transports, two cruisers, and two scouts. P. 88-89 of Rebellion Sourcebook show a typical transport and a typical cruiser (Not a cruiser by Imperial standards, as it doesn't have a spinal mount, but rather a 10,000 T escort). A squadron consisting of two each (we'll ignore the scouts) would cost MCr45,900 (if new) and would carry 20,000 colonists in low berths (plus 940 crew). That's a cost of MCr2.3 per colonist. If you assume that obsolescent vessels are worth, say, 20% of new cost, you're still talking about almost half a million credits (459,000) per colonist. Or, to put it another way, every such squadron you send off deprives you of the funds to maintain 9 of those 10,000 T cruisers.

...and then squatting on backwater continents. Paying local taxation, kind of--- token payments in goods sufficient to ally "Takeover" fears... and few and slow enough (a ship or two a month per world) that it doesn't LOOK like an invasion, until one counts the THOUSANDS of ships.

Well, I don't really mind a few ihatei sneaking in under the radar. But I don't believe in those thousands of ships. The ihatei expedition that's described in AM1 was sent out by the Loaktarl, a clan that 'dominates four subsectors'; it is the first expedition they've been able to afford in more than a generation, and it consists of 10 50,000 T ships carrying 10,000 ihatei each.

Now, I'm aware that 'dominating' isn't the same as 'controlling', but I submit that the Loaktarl still need to be many billion strong to dominate four subsectors. And if the best they can do is 100,000 every 25 years, how many can the Hierate itself generate? Well, quite a lot, of course, but how many of them will prefer to go rimwards rather than across the Great Rift. IMO a very large percentage of them.

Why the Imperium? Because the Imperium will let them become citizens, and yet remain culturally Aslan. Because they won't be run off for just looking.

But the moment they become citizens they cease to be part of the problem and become part of the solution. Their ships now become available to defend the Imperium against all other Aslans, including their former clan!

Why would the women let the men spend the money? Because it is a point of honor to be able to "Spare" a few ships for Ihati. It is the "right and proper aslan thing"...

Oh, absolutely. I agree 100%. And there's a political advantage to the clan lord, too, getting rid of ambitious nephews and providing a social safety valve for the most unrestful of all those younger sons. But, once again, I think the operative word is 'few'.


Hans

 

[Antony]

The closest imperial equivelant to the Weakhto class "cruiser" would be the ED-13 Escort Destroyer from Fightning Ships.

Incidently the Weakhto class "Cruiser" from the Rebellion Sourcebook will, when given the "normal" treatment of its weaponry when converted to TNE will upgrade its PA to a spinal mount and its fusion and plasma weapons will become heavy lasers (probably barbette types given the weapon ratings). Its crew requirement will also increase.

 

[Antony]

The closest imperial equivelant to the Weakhto class "cruiser" would be the ED-13 Escort Destroyer from Fightning Ships.

Incidently the Weakhto class "Cruiser" from the Rebellion Sourcebook will, when given the "normal" treatment of its weaponry when converted to TNE will upgrade its PA to a spinal mount and its fusion and plasma weapons will become heavy lasers (probably barbette types given the weapon ratings). Its crew requirement will also increase.

 

[Antony]

The closest imperial equivelant to the Weakhto class "cruiser" would be the ED-13 Escort Destroyer from Fightning Ships.

Incidently the Weakhto class "Cruiser" from the Rebellion Sourcebook will, when given the "normal" treatment of its weaponry when converted to TNE will upgrade its PA to a spinal mount and its fusion and plasma weapons will become heavy lasers (probably barbette types given the weapon ratings). Its crew requirement will also increase.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

Ok the main thing that keeps coming up in this thred seams to be the aslan invasion of the DoD and how it would not work for verous reasons.

like the third imperium has a TL15 Navy. that may be true for "catgory A regluar forces" but also rember that acording to the canon that the DoD and in piticluar the marches lack the concntrasion of indurstialised TL13-15 worlds needed to meet all their militry ship building needs, so the bulk of ships for the 4th frountear war came from the core worlds arfter the third either as finished product or where shiped as components so as not to overaly tax the production capibilitys and ship-yards of the high end worlds in the domain (plus it generated jobs in the imperal core).
also remember that the third imperium was going through a upgrade phase in the 11teens from a TL13-14 to a TL14-15 force structure and most of the new stuff would have bean concntrated on unsecure borders, against "proven" enemies and politacial centers. so the aslan are facing mostaly TL13-14 "Catgory B" garason and patrol forces with a few TL13-14 & TL14-15 "Catgory A" forces for show and derterant.

now compere that to the aslan having just finished an upgrade program (TL13 with some older TL12 stuff) to a TL13-14 leaving gigertons of older TL13 ships and equpment and supply stock-piles and givin the aslan are a warrior people with many combat vets among the ihatei, now frount the "invaision" with the regluar navy of the trans-rift clans you got problams for the over-evolved monkeys.
since the numbers of ihatei probaly numbers in the tens if not hundreads of bilions who have bean siting (and growing in numbers )in cold sleep for decades or more and the good old DoD is in the poo with the effects of the secound civil war (the rebelion) playing havoc along the varg borders with their supply lines and in corridor with luchians pullout of garasons in that reagon its posable that they got as far as they did but only if they got a realy good deal on the invasion hand (and it looks like they did) so by 1120 Norris would just be geting around to dealing with "the Toon problem" but GDW and DGP (as far as i know) focoused on events in the core systems with the exception of the "Arrival Vengeance" campain that takes the PC's from the domain to the core and back giving us not mutch to go on till the reagency sourcebook that looks at the TNE domain and could not fit in lots of stuff about the post fall DoD apart what was needed to set the seen for TNE campains ortherwise the book would have bean a cupple of hundred pages longer this should make some parts of the MT cannon seem more beleavabal

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

Ok the main thing that keeps coming up in this thred seams to be the aslan invasion of the DoD and how it would not work for verous reasons.

like the third imperium has a TL15 Navy. that may be true for "catgory A regluar forces" but also rember that acording to the canon that the DoD and in piticluar the marches lack the concntrasion of indurstialised TL13-15 worlds needed to meet all their militry ship building needs, so the bulk of ships for the 4th frountear war came from the core worlds arfter the third either as finished product or where shiped as components so as not to overaly tax the production capibilitys and ship-yards of the high end worlds in the domain (plus it generated jobs in the imperal core).
also remember that the third imperium was going through a upgrade phase in the 11teens from a TL13-14 to a TL14-15 force structure and most of the new stuff would have bean concntrated on unsecure borders, against "proven" enemies and politacial centers. so the aslan are facing mostaly TL13-14 "Catgory B" garason and patrol forces with a few TL13-14 & TL14-15 "Catgory A" forces for show and derterant.

now compere that to the aslan having just finished an upgrade program (TL13 with some older TL12 stuff) to a TL13-14 leaving gigertons of older TL13 ships and equpment and supply stock-piles and givin the aslan are a warrior people with many combat vets among the ihatei, now frount the "invaision" with the regluar navy of the trans-rift clans you got problams for the over-evolved monkeys.
since the numbers of ihatei probaly numbers in the tens if not hundreads of bilions who have bean siting (and growing in numbers )in cold sleep for decades or more and the good old DoD is in the poo with the effects of the secound civil war (the rebelion) playing havoc along the varg borders with their supply lines and in corridor with luchians pullout of garasons in that reagon its posable that they got as far as they did but only if they got a realy good deal on the invasion hand (and it looks like they did) so by 1120 Norris would just be geting around to dealing with "the Toon problem" but GDW and DGP (as far as i know) focoused on events in the core systems with the exception of the "Arrival Vengeance" campain that takes the PC's from the domain to the core and back giving us not mutch to go on till the reagency sourcebook that looks at the TNE domain and could not fit in lots of stuff about the post fall DoD apart what was needed to set the seen for TNE campains ortherwise the book would have bean a cupple of hundred pages longer this should make some parts of the MT cannon seem more beleavabal

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

Ok the main thing that keeps coming up in this thred seams to be the aslan invasion of the DoD and how it would not work for verous reasons.

like the third imperium has a TL15 Navy. that may be true for "catgory A regluar forces" but also rember that acording to the canon that the DoD and in piticluar the marches lack the concntrasion of indurstialised TL13-15 worlds needed to meet all their militry ship building needs, so the bulk of ships for the 4th frountear war came from the core worlds arfter the third either as finished product or where shiped as components so as not to overaly tax the production capibilitys and ship-yards of the high end worlds in the domain (plus it generated jobs in the imperal core).
also remember that the third imperium was going through a upgrade phase in the 11teens from a TL13-14 to a TL14-15 force structure and most of the new stuff would have bean concntrated on unsecure borders, against "proven" enemies and politacial centers. so the aslan are facing mostaly TL13-14 "Catgory B" garason and patrol forces with a few TL13-14 & TL14-15 "Catgory A" forces for show and derterant.

now compere that to the aslan having just finished an upgrade program (TL13 with some older TL12 stuff) to a TL13-14 leaving gigertons of older TL13 ships and equpment and supply stock-piles and givin the aslan are a warrior people with many combat vets among the ihatei, now frount the "invaision" with the regluar navy of the trans-rift clans you got problams for the over-evolved monkeys.
since the numbers of ihatei probaly numbers in the tens if not hundreads of bilions who have bean siting (and growing in numbers )in cold sleep for decades or more and the good old DoD is in the poo with the effects of the secound civil war (the rebelion) playing havoc along the varg borders with their supply lines and in corridor with luchians pullout of garasons in that reagon its posable that they got as far as they did but only if they got a realy good deal on the invasion hand (and it looks like they did) so by 1120 Norris would just be geting around to dealing with "the Toon problem" but GDW and DGP (as far as i know) focoused on events in the core systems with the exception of the "Arrival Vengeance" campain that takes the PC's from the domain to the core and back giving us not mutch to go on till the reagency sourcebook that looks at the TNE domain and could not fit in lots of stuff about the post fall DoD apart what was needed to set the seen for TNE campains ortherwise the book would have bean a cupple of hundred pages longer this should make some parts of the MT cannon seem more beleavabal

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by 313:
Like the third imperium has a TL15 Navy. that may be true for "catgory A regular forces" but also rember that acording to the canon that the DoD and in particular the marches lack the concentration of industialised TL13-15 worlds needed to meet all their military ship building needs, so the bulk of ships for the 4th Frontier War came from the core worlds after the third either as finished product or where shiped as components so as not to overaly tax the production capibilitys and ship-yards of the high end worlds in the domain (plus it generated jobs in the Imperal core).

This is fascinating. It's all new to me. Please let me know what canonical material you're referring to. Perhaps you can provide a few quotes too?

Unfortunately it's not true. The Domain of Deneb has enough high-population TL15 worlds to maintain the entire regular Imperial Navy stationed there. The peacetime expenditure on the Imperial Navy is astonishingly low.

Also remember that the Third Imperium was going through an upgrade phase in the 11teens from a TL13-14 to a TL14-15 force structure...

The Imperium reached TL15 around 1000. It has had over a century to upgrade to TL15. The upgrade phase is over, except for some mothballed reserve vessels.

...and most of the new stuff would have been concentrated on unsecure borders, against "proven" enemies and political centers. so the Aslan are facing mostly TL13-14 "Catgory B" garason and patrol forces with a few TL13-14 & TL14-15 "Catgory A" forces for show and deterrent.

Well, a crucial part of my refusal to believe in Aslans invading the Imperium is that I refuse to believe that Norris would keep all his ships stationed at the Zhodani border year in and year out while the Zhodani never showed up and the Aslan whittled away the worlds Norris needs to support his Grand Humongous Armada. I don't even think it is logistically possible to keep them all stationed in one spot, but that's almost besides the point.

Then there's the subsector forces. The Duchy of Tobia Navy is going to be fully TL15, since it is rased and maintained on Tobia. So is the Tobia Planetary Defense Force. Likewise the Glisten and Trin navies. The Sindal forces will 'only' be TL14, Gazulin's TL13, and Pax Rulin is going to be seriously out-teched without regular Imperial forces. But the TL15 duchies ought to be able to pick up the slack. Especially if they get a little help from the Duchy of Vestus Navy, which is mostly funded by the 40 billion people on Lintl (Reft 0503).

Now compere that to the Aslan having just finished an upgrade program (TL13 with some older TL12 stuff) to a TL13-14 leaving gigertons of older TL13 ships and equpment and supply stock-piles and given the Aslan are a warrior people with many combat vets among the ihatei, now front the "invaision" with the regular navy of the trans-rift clans you got problems for the over-evolved monkeys.

(What Aslan upgrade program? More fascinating new canon...)

Anyway, you speak so glibly of 'The regular navy of the trans-rift clans', but it's most emphatically not one navy. It's several hundred navies belonging to clans that have been natural enemies for their entire history. Even if by some miracle you could get all of them to cooperate (contrary to what canon says about the Aslan, BTW) they're still going to revert to being enemies as soon as this remarkable cooperative venture is over. So which clan will lead the attack? What clan is going to face the Imperial troops and get their warships shot up, leaving them oh-so-tempting targets for their sneakier neighbors?

I simply don't believe that it will be possible to coordinate the efforts of that many different clan navies.

Since the numbers of ihatei probably numbers in the tens if not hundreds of bilions...

Why is that figure probable? As I've pointed out in previous posts, outfitting ihatei is expensive and I think the figure is far lower. BTW, an ihatei expedition is supposed to bconsitute a viable society. That means that 75% of them are females and some unspecified number of the males will be low-status non-warriors.

...who have been sitting (and growing in numbers )in cold sleep for decades or more...

Now, that bit I remember from somewhere in the MT canon, but I have to ask, does that make sense? You're an eager young ihatei admiral whose dad gave him a squadron or two. You've made your way across the Great Rift. You can't expect to have any luck in the Imperium, and the Imperium is protecting the Buffer Zone, and the Floriani are selfishly keeping you out of their league, but to spinwards lies many subsectors filled with empty, unprotected worlds. And you decide to park your ships and go into cold sleep for a few decades, waiting for better times? What, you're maybe expecting the Imperium to be wracked by civil war any decade now, perhaps?

...and the good old DoD is in the poo with the effects of the second civil war (the rebellion) playing havoc along the varg borders with their supply lines...

That's just the point. The Rebellion doesn't play havoc with the Domain of Deneb. All it does it put it on a war footing (Which will increase the forces available amazingly). The Vargr invasions are as easily handled as the Aslan, albeit for different reasons. The Domain supply lines are all internal; Vargr suicide packs attacking border worlds isn't going to disrupt any supply or communication lines. And meanwhile the Domain is reactivating mothballed ships and cranking out new ones at a wartime rate.


Hans

 

[daryen]

Sorry for not replying earlier. For the most part I actually agree with you. (And I completely agree with your above response to 313.) Plus this discussion has forced me to look at some other side ideas that I might be able to leverage.

Originally posted by rancke:
Side issue: Just what is the difference between the Hierate and Aslan clans?

For my purposes, the "Hierate" refers to the "orthodox" Aslan as a whole. Granted this is probably a misuse of the "Hierate", but that is OK because canon makes the same mistake.

"Aslan clans" refer to one or more clans working on their own, independent of any overall structure.

So, if the "Hierate" is attacking the DoD, then all "orthodox" Aslan clans are making war on the DoD. But if "Aslan clans" are attacking the DoD, then one or more clans are making war, but they are operating completely independently of the vast majority of the "Hierate".

(I use "orthodox" to indicate those clans who subscribe the the standard Aslan culture enforced throughout Hierate space.)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Floriani didn't fall.

OK, my mistake. But all the better if they didn't fall.</font>[/QUOTE]Do note that I am saying the Floriani didn't fall. I have no real "proof" of that, only some circumstantial evidence.

At least, I have no proof yet.

You're right, there are a few results of an Aslan invasion, but the results are either possible to explain without an invasion or middling to highly implausible. I notice that RS speaks of Imperial (ie. Domain) weakness in 1122! After being on a war footing for five years without the Zhodani showing up, the Domain is still sending all its spanking new ships to Vilis? I don't think so.

Heh, I fully agree with you here.

Don't forget the whole line of "cultural stagnation" and "population pressure" nonsense mentioned in the RSB. With as many empty (or near empty) worlds as there are in the Regency, there are no population pressures. And the only cultural problems the Regency had were because of Norris changing too much too fast.

As an aside, with the RSB, I have found that if I read it as having an omniscient point of view, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense at times. But, if I am willing to step back, give it more of an in-game point of view, and then read between the lines a bit, it starts making a lot more sense.

For what it's worth, I don't think Dave Neilson thought the whole Aslan invasion thing made any sense, either.

 

[daryen]

Sorry for not replying earlier. For the most part I actually agree with you. (And I completely agree with your above response to 313.) Plus this discussion has forced me to look at some other side ideas that I might be able to leverage.

Originally posted by rancke:
Side issue: Just what is the difference between the Hierate and Aslan clans?

For my purposes, the "Hierate" refers to the "orthodox" Aslan as a whole. Granted this is probably a misuse of the "Hierate", but that is OK because canon makes the same mistake.

"Aslan clans" refer to one or more clans working on their own, independent of any overall structure.

So, if the "Hierate" is attacking the DoD, then all "orthodox" Aslan clans are making war on the DoD. But if "Aslan clans" are attacking the DoD, then one or more clans are making war, but they are operating completely independently of the vast majority of the "Hierate".

(I use "orthodox" to indicate those clans who subscribe the the standard Aslan culture enforced throughout Hierate space.)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The Floriani didn't fall.

OK, my mistake. But all the better if they didn't fall.</font>[/QUOTE]Do note that I am saying the Floriani didn't fall. I have no real "proof" of that, only some circumstantial evidence.

At least, I have no proof yet.

You're right, there are a few results of an Aslan invasion, but the results are either possible to explain without an invasion or middling to highly implausible. I notice that RS speaks of Imperial (ie. Domain) weakness in 1122! After being on a war footing for five years without the Zhodani showing up, the Domain is still sending all its spanking new ships to Vilis? I don't think so.

Heh, I fully agree with you here.

Don't forget the whole line of "cultural stagnation" and "population pressure" nonsense mentioned in the RSB. With as many empty (or near empty) worlds as there are in the Regency, there are no population pressures. And the only cultural problems the Regency had were because of Norris changing too much too fast.

As an aside, with the RSB, I have found that if I read it as having an omniscient point of view, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense at times. But, if I am willing to step back, give it more of an in-game point of view, and then read between the lines a bit, it starts making a lot more sense.

For what it's worth, I don't think Dave Neilson thought the whole Aslan invasion thing made any sense, either.