Aspects of the Rebellion Era that snap people's disbelief suspenders

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
The buffer worlds had never been taken previously because they were protected by the Imperium.

IIRC that has never been stated anywhere, but I agree 100%. That's the only possible explanation I can see for how they could've remained independent. But you miss the implication: The Imperium has not only been able to defend its own worlds from Aslan ihatei, it has also been able to defend the worlds in the Buffer Zone. What does that tell you about the strength of the ihatei.</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I completely agree. I had tried to be clear, but apparently failed. I am making the base assumption that the ihatei were merely hangers-on. It is actual Aslan clan elements (and major elements at that) that are pursuing the invasion. It is full power Aslan naval fleets clashing with Imperial fleets. Ihatei would be carved up like a side of beef.

Without full Aslan clan fleets involved, all that would happen is a few dozen lopop worlds would suddenly find themselves with Aslan squatters.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So they aren't forgotten, they are just such small potatoes, they aren't explicitly described. But if you do notice, they are pretty much all taken.

Yes, but by whom? And just how many ihatei are there that they can settle multiple millions of square kilometres of prime land and still have enough left over to overwhelm many Imperial worlds?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, obviously all Aslan forces are spread really thin since not a single UWP was changed as a result of the Aslan "invasion". No Aslan governments, no population increases, no nothing.

So obviously, the Aslan install some figurehead governors who ... Actually, I have no idea what they do, since the original governments are left intact.

Oh well, it worked during the Interstellar Wars, it can work here, too.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Also, don't forget that many of the Aslan clans detest the treaty (I forget the name) that was signed between the Heirate and the Imperium. Given their "long memories", if they think they see a chance to strike the Imperium, some would do so just because it is vulnerable.

But its not. Vulnerable I mean. At least, not nearly as vulnerable as the independent worlds. Just what does an ihatei admiral want, land or revenge? More to the point, what does his wives want?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, again, the ihatei aren't really involved in this, other than in name. It is full on Aslan fleets that are pursing this.

And the DoD is in disarray. Everything ever written on it, says so. Plus, you have to remember that the local Admiral was a moron. Yeah, I know, I don't really buy it myself, but there it is. Besides, I have read about stuff even more stupid than all that done in the real world.

So, Saint Norris wasn't infalible. He screwed up, worried about a nonexistant thread and ignored the real threat. It's not like that hasn't happened before. So Norris did it too; oh well.

And, going by the UWPs again, it is quite obvious that much of the conquest was done through negotiation. Even if all of the DoD forces left the Trojan Reaches, it would be an open question as to whether the Aslan clan fleets could take out Tobia. One is pretty much forced to assume Tobia wasn't conquered outright, but instead reached a negotiated settlement.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied. Yes, they should be easier pickings than the mighty Imperium, but they are also not in chaos and would likely mount a more fanatical defense (a la the Floriani). The fractured Imperium would look to be much less focused.

I was talking about the sectors further spinward than the Floriani League. And the Domain of Deneb is not in disarray. We're back to Norris stripping the border subsectors of everything and leaving them stripped for years of Zhodani non-activity!</font>[/QUOTE]So am I. The Beyond sector is full of populated worlds and interstellar governments. It has parts of nine(!) interstellar polities, plus the Aslan. It will take lots of effort to take them all out, too.

See above on Norris. So he screwed up. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last. Plus, no matter how stupid it is, we are stuck with it.

The real trick is to see if you can make a story hang with the given information, and make it at least close to reasonable. And, if we are willing to assume a full Aslan invasion (i.e. not just ihatei) and assume that some worlds (Tobia) had a negotiated settlement, then we can have a story that works.

Is it perfect? No. But it works at least as well as some stuff that actually happened.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
The buffer worlds had never been taken previously because they were protected by the Imperium.

IIRC that has never been stated anywhere, but I agree 100%. That's the only possible explanation I can see for how they could've remained independent. But you miss the implication: The Imperium has not only been able to defend its own worlds from Aslan ihatei, it has also been able to defend the worlds in the Buffer Zone. What does that tell you about the strength of the ihatei.</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I completely agree. I had tried to be clear, but apparently failed. I am making the base assumption that the ihatei were merely hangers-on. It is actual Aslan clan elements (and major elements at that) that are pursuing the invasion. It is full power Aslan naval fleets clashing with Imperial fleets. Ihatei would be carved up like a side of beef.

Without full Aslan clan fleets involved, all that would happen is a few dozen lopop worlds would suddenly find themselves with Aslan squatters.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So they aren't forgotten, they are just such small potatoes, they aren't explicitly described. But if you do notice, they are pretty much all taken.

Yes, but by whom? And just how many ihatei are there that they can settle multiple millions of square kilometres of prime land and still have enough left over to overwhelm many Imperial worlds?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, obviously all Aslan forces are spread really thin since not a single UWP was changed as a result of the Aslan "invasion". No Aslan governments, no population increases, no nothing.

So obviously, the Aslan install some figurehead governors who ... Actually, I have no idea what they do, since the original governments are left intact.

Oh well, it worked during the Interstellar Wars, it can work here, too.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Also, don't forget that many of the Aslan clans detest the treaty (I forget the name) that was signed between the Heirate and the Imperium. Given their "long memories", if they think they see a chance to strike the Imperium, some would do so just because it is vulnerable.

But its not. Vulnerable I mean. At least, not nearly as vulnerable as the independent worlds. Just what does an ihatei admiral want, land or revenge? More to the point, what does his wives want?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, again, the ihatei aren't really involved in this, other than in name. It is full on Aslan fleets that are pursing this.

And the DoD is in disarray. Everything ever written on it, says so. Plus, you have to remember that the local Admiral was a moron. Yeah, I know, I don't really buy it myself, but there it is. Besides, I have read about stuff even more stupid than all that done in the real world.

So, Saint Norris wasn't infalible. He screwed up, worried about a nonexistant thread and ignored the real threat. It's not like that hasn't happened before. So Norris did it too; oh well.

And, going by the UWPs again, it is quite obvious that much of the conquest was done through negotiation. Even if all of the DoD forces left the Trojan Reaches, it would be an open question as to whether the Aslan clan fleets could take out Tobia. One is pretty much forced to assume Tobia wasn't conquered outright, but instead reached a negotiated settlement.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied. Yes, they should be easier pickings than the mighty Imperium, but they are also not in chaos and would likely mount a more fanatical defense (a la the Floriani). The fractured Imperium would look to be much less focused.

I was talking about the sectors further spinward than the Floriani League. And the Domain of Deneb is not in disarray. We're back to Norris stripping the border subsectors of everything and leaving them stripped for years of Zhodani non-activity!</font>[/QUOTE]So am I. The Beyond sector is full of populated worlds and interstellar governments. It has parts of nine(!) interstellar polities, plus the Aslan. It will take lots of effort to take them all out, too.

See above on Norris. So he screwed up. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last. Plus, no matter how stupid it is, we are stuck with it.

The real trick is to see if you can make a story hang with the given information, and make it at least close to reasonable. And, if we are willing to assume a full Aslan invasion (i.e. not just ihatei) and assume that some worlds (Tobia) had a negotiated settlement, then we can have a story that works.

Is it perfect? No. But it works at least as well as some stuff that actually happened.

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Murph:
You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Then again, perhaps the SM has become an uber-warmachine in Traveller canon because so many wargamers like Traveller and they all want to play the big guy?

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Murph:
You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Then again, perhaps the SM has become an uber-warmachine in Traveller canon because so many wargamers like Traveller and they all want to play the big guy?

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Murph:
You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Then again, perhaps the SM has become an uber-warmachine in Traveller canon because so many wargamers like Traveller and they all want to play the big guy?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by rancke:
1) What's so tempting about the Imperium? It's defended by massive forces of TLs two or three higher than your own. Before you get to the Imperium, you cross a band of independent stars roughly 10 parsecs wide. Many of them are empty or near-empty, others are populated by people with lower TL. Why not stop there? And if you go spinwards instead, you get into a region of space with lots of empty worlds. Worlds that has been there ever since the Aslans first crossed the Great Rift two millenia ago, so just why did all those ihatei thart were're told had built up prior to 1117 not go there in the first place? Also note that crossing the Great Rift takes jump-3 ships about a year, which means that to two thirds of the Hierate, the rimward edge is effectively much closer than the trans-rift border. So I have to ask: Just what is so tempting about the Imperium?

Yes, I agree with all that.

The really tough part, as noted above, to explain away is why the Aslan didn&#146t just go off to Spinward and out-build the Imperium? The polity that grew from such expansion would be a rival to both the Imperium and the Zhodani.

Although I count it at 16 jumps to cross the Great Rift, so 32 weeks standard travel, or so (and that with a J-5 ship).

Originally posted by Hans:
BTW, the original description of the Aslans makes the point that they are incapable of uniting, except in the face of common danger. Which, once again, brings me back to my view of the Aslan Hierate as a 4,000 man Diplomacy game...

Once again, a point where a new phase of Traveller fails to note where it is specifically adjusting prior history. The new explanations don&#146t mesh with the past, but no clear direction was given stating &#147X is no longer true, go with Y&#148.


EDIT----
Yes, I did just change "Trailing" above to the appropriate "Spinward".

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by rancke:
1) What's so tempting about the Imperium? It's defended by massive forces of TLs two or three higher than your own. Before you get to the Imperium, you cross a band of independent stars roughly 10 parsecs wide. Many of them are empty or near-empty, others are populated by people with lower TL. Why not stop there? And if you go spinwards instead, you get into a region of space with lots of empty worlds. Worlds that has been there ever since the Aslans first crossed the Great Rift two millenia ago, so just why did all those ihatei thart were're told had built up prior to 1117 not go there in the first place? Also note that crossing the Great Rift takes jump-3 ships about a year, which means that to two thirds of the Hierate, the rimward edge is effectively much closer than the trans-rift border. So I have to ask: Just what is so tempting about the Imperium?

Yes, I agree with all that.

The really tough part, as noted above, to explain away is why the Aslan didn&#146t just go off to Spinward and out-build the Imperium? The polity that grew from such expansion would be a rival to both the Imperium and the Zhodani.

Although I count it at 16 jumps to cross the Great Rift, so 32 weeks standard travel, or so (and that with a J-5 ship).

Originally posted by Hans:
BTW, the original description of the Aslans makes the point that they are incapable of uniting, except in the face of common danger. Which, once again, brings me back to my view of the Aslan Hierate as a 4,000 man Diplomacy game...

Once again, a point where a new phase of Traveller fails to note where it is specifically adjusting prior history. The new explanations don&#146t mesh with the past, but no clear direction was given stating &#147X is no longer true, go with Y&#148.


EDIT----
Yes, I did just change "Trailing" above to the appropriate "Spinward".

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by rancke:
1) What's so tempting about the Imperium? It's defended by massive forces of TLs two or three higher than your own. Before you get to the Imperium, you cross a band of independent stars roughly 10 parsecs wide. Many of them are empty or near-empty, others are populated by people with lower TL. Why not stop there? And if you go spinwards instead, you get into a region of space with lots of empty worlds. Worlds that has been there ever since the Aslans first crossed the Great Rift two millenia ago, so just why did all those ihatei thart were're told had built up prior to 1117 not go there in the first place? Also note that crossing the Great Rift takes jump-3 ships about a year, which means that to two thirds of the Hierate, the rimward edge is effectively much closer than the trans-rift border. So I have to ask: Just what is so tempting about the Imperium?

Yes, I agree with all that.

The really tough part, as noted above, to explain away is why the Aslan didn&#146t just go off to Spinward and out-build the Imperium? The polity that grew from such expansion would be a rival to both the Imperium and the Zhodani.

Although I count it at 16 jumps to cross the Great Rift, so 32 weeks standard travel, or so (and that with a J-5 ship).

Originally posted by Hans:
BTW, the original description of the Aslans makes the point that they are incapable of uniting, except in the face of common danger. Which, once again, brings me back to my view of the Aslan Hierate as a 4,000 man Diplomacy game...

Once again, a point where a new phase of Traveller fails to note where it is specifically adjusting prior history. The new explanations don&#146t mesh with the past, but no clear direction was given stating &#147X is no longer true, go with Y&#148.


EDIT----
Yes, I did just change "Trailing" above to the appropriate "Spinward".

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Murph:
You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Then again, perhaps the SM has become an uber-warmachine in Traveller canon because so many wargamers like Traveller and they all want to play the big guy? </font>[/QUOTE]I'd always assumed fairly large fleets were kept around the SM because it was toe to toe with the Vargr and the Zhodani (and, further away, the Aslan). IMTU, anyway, it receives substantial Imperial-level funding for its fleets, because the Spinward Marches is, I can't remember exactly, 6th or 7th poorest sector in the Imperium.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Murph:
You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Then again, perhaps the SM has become an uber-warmachine in Traveller canon because so many wargamers like Traveller and they all want to play the big guy? </font>[/QUOTE]I'd always assumed fairly large fleets were kept around the SM because it was toe to toe with the Vargr and the Zhodani (and, further away, the Aslan). IMTU, anyway, it receives substantial Imperial-level funding for its fleets, because the Spinward Marches is, I can't remember exactly, 6th or 7th poorest sector in the Imperium.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Murph:
You are right, there is no way the Aslan could have pulled it off. The TL difference is just too great, it would be like WWI Germany attempting to take on the current day US military.

I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Then again, perhaps the SM has become an uber-warmachine in Traveller canon because so many wargamers like Traveller and they all want to play the big guy? </font>[/QUOTE]I'd always assumed fairly large fleets were kept around the SM because it was toe to toe with the Vargr and the Zhodani (and, further away, the Aslan). IMTU, anyway, it receives substantial Imperial-level funding for its fleets, because the Spinward Marches is, I can't remember exactly, 6th or 7th poorest sector in the Imperium.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by daryen:
Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied.

As the map shows, Spinward of Aslan space is unclaimed or independent, and beyond the unclaimed space, a little Spinward and a little Rimward are the &#147Aslan Client States&#148. Beyond that is a single polity in iphigenaia (I don't know what that is, but it could by bypassed).

Browsing randomly through the UWPs (in Galactic) shows, on average, Low-Pop, Low-Tech worlds, many of which (along the Rimward edge of The Beyond and the Vanguard Reaches) are already Aslan Colony worlds (stepping stones to further expansion/success).

Originally posted by daryen:
Also, this only takes the trans-rift powers into consideration. I wholeheartedly agree that any clans on the rimward-side of the Heirate would be idiots for sending their ihatei across the Rift. I would make much more sense to just send them rimward. There is still many sectors of space just waiting to be developed in that direction.

Well, either operation would entail enormous expense.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by daryen:
Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied.

As the map shows, Spinward of Aslan space is unclaimed or independent, and beyond the unclaimed space, a little Spinward and a little Rimward are the &#147Aslan Client States&#148. Beyond that is a single polity in iphigenaia (I don't know what that is, but it could by bypassed).

Browsing randomly through the UWPs (in Galactic) shows, on average, Low-Pop, Low-Tech worlds, many of which (along the Rimward edge of The Beyond and the Vanguard Reaches) are already Aslan Colony worlds (stepping stones to further expansion/success).

Originally posted by daryen:
Also, this only takes the trans-rift powers into consideration. I wholeheartedly agree that any clans on the rimward-side of the Heirate would be idiots for sending their ihatei across the Rift. I would make much more sense to just send them rimward. There is still many sectors of space just waiting to be developed in that direction.

Well, either operation would entail enormous expense.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by daryen:
Finally, don't forget that much of the space spinward is already occupied.

As the map shows, Spinward of Aslan space is unclaimed or independent, and beyond the unclaimed space, a little Spinward and a little Rimward are the &#147Aslan Client States&#148. Beyond that is a single polity in iphigenaia (I don't know what that is, but it could by bypassed).

Browsing randomly through the UWPs (in Galactic) shows, on average, Low-Pop, Low-Tech worlds, many of which (along the Rimward edge of The Beyond and the Vanguard Reaches) are already Aslan Colony worlds (stepping stones to further expansion/success).

Originally posted by daryen:
Also, this only takes the trans-rift powers into consideration. I wholeheartedly agree that any clans on the rimward-side of the Heirate would be idiots for sending their ihatei across the Rift. I would make much more sense to just send them rimward. There is still many sectors of space just waiting to be developed in that direction.

Well, either operation would entail enormous expense.

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by daryen:
So obviously, the Aslan install some figurehead governors who ... Actually, I have no idea what they do, since the original governments are left intact.

Oh well, it worked during the Interstellar Wars, it can work here, too.

Perhaps like some sort of colony / veteran system ala the Hellenistic Age Successors or the Roman Empire? One feudal type of overlord isn't that much different from the other I guess.

Casey (yeah ok I saw the new Alexander commercial last night)

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by daryen:
So obviously, the Aslan install some figurehead governors who ... Actually, I have no idea what they do, since the original governments are left intact.

Oh well, it worked during the Interstellar Wars, it can work here, too.

Perhaps like some sort of colony / veteran system ala the Hellenistic Age Successors or the Roman Empire? One feudal type of overlord isn't that much different from the other I guess.

Casey (yeah ok I saw the new Alexander commercial last night)

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by daryen:
So obviously, the Aslan install some figurehead governors who ... Actually, I have no idea what they do, since the original governments are left intact.

Oh well, it worked during the Interstellar Wars, it can work here, too.

Perhaps like some sort of colony / veteran system ala the Hellenistic Age Successors or the Roman Empire? One feudal type of overlord isn't that much different from the other I guess.

Casey (yeah ok I saw the new Alexander commercial last night)

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Please understand a distinction here. The ihatei are the "laughing stock" (to use your words), not the Aslan.

And the ihatei aren't really a "laughing stock", they are merely under-equipped. Their ships are old, obsolete stuff the clans can't use anymore. They are often 1 or 2 TLs behind the "modern" stuff. Also, all of the big ships are used to transport the ihatei and colonists. All of the ships that can actually fight are (relatively) small. They have a distinct lack of spinal mounts.

What this means is that just about any well-equipped force (like found as part of a hi-pop planetary defense force) will be able to take out ihatei with little difficulty. The odds would be so bad, that the ihatei would likely not even bother; there are enough other, easier targets to look for.

On the other hand, significant Aslan clan forces (i.e. the "regular navy") will do just fine.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Please understand a distinction here. The ihatei are the "laughing stock" (to use your words), not the Aslan.

And the ihatei aren't really a "laughing stock", they are merely under-equipped. Their ships are old, obsolete stuff the clans can't use anymore. They are often 1 or 2 TLs behind the "modern" stuff. Also, all of the big ships are used to transport the ihatei and colonists. All of the ships that can actually fight are (relatively) small. They have a distinct lack of spinal mounts.

What this means is that just about any well-equipped force (like found as part of a hi-pop planetary defense force) will be able to take out ihatei with little difficulty. The odds would be so bad, that the ihatei would likely not even bother; there are enough other, easier targets to look for.

On the other hand, significant Aslan clan forces (i.e. the "regular navy") will do just fine.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
I dunno, gimme the Aslans and I'll see what I can do. I do know that IMTU the Aslan are not the laughing stock they seem to be assume dto be here, and the Spinward Marches, whilst formidable, is not the uber-military power everyone seems to asume it must be.

Please understand a distinction here. The ihatei are the "laughing stock" (to use your words), not the Aslan.

And the ihatei aren't really a "laughing stock", they are merely under-equipped. Their ships are old, obsolete stuff the clans can't use anymore. They are often 1 or 2 TLs behind the "modern" stuff. Also, all of the big ships are used to transport the ihatei and colonists. All of the ships that can actually fight are (relatively) small. They have a distinct lack of spinal mounts.

What this means is that just about any well-equipped force (like found as part of a hi-pop planetary defense force) will be able to take out ihatei with little difficulty. The odds would be so bad, that the ihatei would likely not even bother; there are enough other, easier targets to look for.

On the other hand, significant Aslan clan forces (i.e. the "regular navy") will do just fine.