Aspects of the Rebellion Era that snap people's disbelief suspenders

[TheEngineer]

Originally posted by hunter:
Oy! Not jump masking! Next is will be near-C rocks and piracy...

Gah I think I need to open a Flame Wars forum...

Hunter

Please dont forget topics like nobelity, the moot, heat radiation and spaceport toilettes...

 

[Elliot]

and jump torpedoes

 

[Elliot]

and jump torpedoes

 

[Elliot]

and jump torpedoes

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
That?s an interesting view. I guess I never thought of the Ihatei fleets of starships as purpose built for the task.

Neither do I. But they've been built for some purpuse and when a transport with a few good years still in it is turned over to ihatei someone is going to have to pay for a new one some years before they would otherwise have had to. And the escorts may be obsolescent, but they still have to be able to fight (otherwise, what's the point of having them along?), so they can't be all that worthless. Somebody always has to pay.

I always thought of them as composed of people who were recruited from among a combination of pent-up volunteers who?ve been simmering to go for a long time, and the economically disadvantaged who see it as a way out of various difficulties.

Actually, given that I believe that a clan can only afford to export a few percent of each generation, I've always thought that they were recruited among the daughters and younger sons of the upper classes, with an occasional daughter or younger son of a favorite retainer thrown in.

They would be packed up aboard older transports (hundreds of older and probably recently recommisioned vessels), with passengers shot-up with Fast Drug, and would come in behind the military fleets.

Ah, the military fleets. The military fleets that a clan maintains to prevent its neighbors from invading its territories?

It would have been the Aslan combined clan regular naval fleets (from the area) that smashed into IN forces, followed by Ihatei transports.

Most of the ihatei are said to come from across the Great Rift. That's why there are so many of them. For the parent clan to send a substantial part of its fleet along, it would have to be prepared to survive without it for several years.

Think about it. If you were a clan lord, would you rather send (say) 20,000 of your ihatei off to a place three years' travel away where they won't be able to pay taxes or help you defend your holdings, or would rather conquer the neighboring clan and shuttle 300,000 ihatei per yer to your new holdings?

I think of the Aslan Hierate as a gigantic 4,000 man Diplomacy game. Just consider for a moment a country in Diplomacy having to manage without half its units for a few years...

(Then there's the whole question of the logistics involved in sending off half your forces to some place years away).

My own economic analysis tends to indicate that the subsectors of the Imperium, can, in many cases, provide huge fleets of their own.

My economic analysis agrees with yours.

Even poor subsectors (like, Lanth, for example) will likely receive subsector navy subsidies from the sector level.

I think subsectors as weak as Lanth would be counties under adjacent duchies and be patrolled by the appropriate Duchy navy.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
I. Don't. Care.

I do. Why do you think I bothered to post?

At least not enough to waste time in a discussion that quickly meanders into statements of 'fact' that are as much based on assumptions/faith as anything else. I mean have you ever stood off an ihatei invasion force, or gone up against an interstellar rebellion navy?

No, but I do have a number of stated axioms, a certain knowledge of the laws of logic, and have spent a considerable amount of time trying without success to come up with a set of assumptions that didn't contradict the basic axioms and nevertheless enabled the Aslans to invade the Domain of Deneb.

(Oh, and just for the record: I enjoyed the mental exercise. Otherwise I wouldn't have done it. After all, it's just a game when all's said and done).

I mean it's about as useful as discussing space piracy,

It is exactly as useful as discussing piracy .

(Which, incidentally, I used to enjoy too. Lately it has palled; familarity, you know...)

...or why the 3rd Imperium should never have existed, or why artificial grav is a crock of b$, or how the exact numbers of troops in the Ramshackle Empire have to be identified before one can discuss whether the 4th Imperium has a snowball's chance in a red dwarf of surviving.

Nah, I don't recognize any of those discussions. None of them sounds like fun.

For crying out loud, you manage to pretend that a 2D map accurately represents 3D space, why not take the author's word that Aslan could cause a rebellion wracked empire trouble???

Because the two things are fundamentally different. The first is an axiom. The second is a statement that in my opinion contradicts previously published information (to wit: the description of Aslan nature and society in AM1) and contradict other parts of canon (such as the cost of military ships and the GWP of Traveller worlds). If I reject the flat universe I reject Traveller. If I reject a part of Traveller that contradicts another part of Traveller, then I embrace that other part.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by JoeFugate:
(Psst: Here's a hint. None of it really exists.)

Well, if that mattered at all, you wouldn't have spent ten years of your life publishing books about something that didn't really exist, would you?

Such are the ways of us humans trying to invent things that don't really exist. It will have holes. Welcome to the reality of being a fallible human!

I realize that. I cetainly never meant to imply that I blamed you for making the mistakes[*]. I'm perfectly aware that it's impossible to avoid introducting discrepancies into shared world settings (and any setting that is worked on by multiple authors is a shared setting even if it all belongs to a single man). Where I apparently disagree with some people is that I think it is a good thing to identify those discrepancies after the fact and either (in descending order of desirability) 1) Come up with an explanation that shows the discrepancy wasn't really a discrepancy after all; 2) Come up with a revision that eliminates the discrepancy; and 3) Acknowledge the discrepancy and mutually agree to ignore it.

[*] Well, I suppose I do, deep down, feel that most Traveller authors could benefit from a better sense of proportion and a mandatory session exploring the ramifications of each new idea they introduce... .

Just for the record: I did my damndest to help make Sword Worlds error-free and I know my fellow authors and the editor did likewise. We didn't succeed (Nor had I really expected us to succeed). I'm full well aware that mistakes are unavoidable.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Lanth, or at least part of it, falls into the holdings of the Duke of Regina, doesn't it?

Now, about the Aslan invasion.

Was it an invasion at all? How much combat was involved?

I totally agree that the SDB's and reserve ships of the DoD would defeat any ihatei, but as it says in MTRS:

The stereotype of alien invasion assumes violence and warfare; the truth of Aslan invasion is quite different...
Wherever possible, Aslan will buy the land they settle...

And as to becoming part of the system:

... but Aslan clans accept the authority of alien governments (for example, in taxation) over clan members...

The interview with Norris in MTJ1 makes it clear that Norris could, to paraphrase, order the "genocidal war" but at what cost? He appears to favour coming to terms with the Aslan and accepting them as imperial (taxpaying ) citzens.

 

[mike wightman]

Lanth, or at least part of it, falls into the holdings of the Duke of Regina, doesn't it?

Now, about the Aslan invasion.

Was it an invasion at all? How much combat was involved?

I totally agree that the SDB's and reserve ships of the DoD would defeat any ihatei, but as it says in MTRS:

The stereotype of alien invasion assumes violence and warfare; the truth of Aslan invasion is quite different...
Wherever possible, Aslan will buy the land they settle...

And as to becoming part of the system:

... but Aslan clans accept the authority of alien governments (for example, in taxation) over clan members...

The interview with Norris in MTJ1 makes it clear that Norris could, to paraphrase, order the "genocidal war" but at what cost? He appears to favour coming to terms with the Aslan and accepting them as imperial (taxpaying ) citzens.

 

[mike wightman]

Lanth, or at least part of it, falls into the holdings of the Duke of Regina, doesn't it?

Now, about the Aslan invasion.

Was it an invasion at all? How much combat was involved?

I totally agree that the SDB's and reserve ships of the DoD would defeat any ihatei, but as it says in MTRS:

The stereotype of alien invasion assumes violence and warfare; the truth of Aslan invasion is quite different...
Wherever possible, Aslan will buy the land they settle...

And as to becoming part of the system:

... but Aslan clans accept the authority of alien governments (for example, in taxation) over clan members...

The interview with Norris in MTJ1 makes it clear that Norris could, to paraphrase, order the "genocidal war" but at what cost? He appears to favour coming to terms with the Aslan and accepting them as imperial (taxpaying ) citzens.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Lanth, or at least part of it, falls into the holdings of the Duke of Regina, doesn't it?

It does if you accept GT material as evidence.

Now, about the Aslan invasion.

Was it an invasion at all? How much combat was involved?

If a bunch of settlers sneak in under the radar and sets up shop in an empty part of a low-population world, subsequently accepting the authority of the world government, then it's not an invasion. If enough ihatei to change the allegiance code of the system buy land on Tobia, then it's... no, it's not an invasion, it's a whacking great implausibility. Where did that number of Aslans come up with the funds to buy land? How did they transfer the funds? Why did the Tobians agree to sell? And why did Norris allow them to leave the Domain of Deneb?

I totally agree that the SDB's and reserve ships of the DoD would defeat any ihatei, but as it says in MTRS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The stereotype of alien invasion assumes violence and warfare; the truth of Aslan invasion is quite different...
Wherever possible, Aslan will buy the land they settle...

And as to becoming part of the system:

... but Aslan clans accept the authority of alien governments (for example, in taxation) over clan members...

The interview with Norris in MTJ1 makes it clear that Norris could, to paraphrase, order the "genocidal war" but at what cost? He appears to favour coming to terms with the Aslan and accepting them as imperial (taxpaying ) citzens. </font>[/QUOTE]But, as I said before, if they agree to become Imperial citizens, where's the problem? And why the change in allegiance code?


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, I see what you mean.

It's an odd thing, but the DoD map from the MTJ has no Aslan worlds inside the Spinward marches, the Aslan border having been pushed back into the Trojan Reach sector.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, I see what you mean.

It's an odd thing, but the DoD map from the MTJ has no Aslan worlds inside the Spinward marches, the Aslan border having been pushed back into the Trojan Reach sector.

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, I see what you mean.

It's an odd thing, but the DoD map from the MTJ has no Aslan worlds inside the Spinward marches, the Aslan border having been pushed back into the Trojan Reach sector.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
For crying out loud, you manage to pretend that a 2D map accurately represents 3D space, why not take the author's word that Aslan could cause a rebellion wracked empire trouble???

The problem with the ihatei invasion is not that it is just "impossible". As you point out, Traveller encompasses lots of "impossible" things.

The problem is that it violates its own consistency. It violates the way the Aslan are said to operate (both before AND after MT). It violates how fleets interact (a ragtag TL13 fleet is going to lose to a larger TL15 defense fleet). Put bluntly, it doesn't make any sense within the context of the game itself.

And since I can't undo the Aslan invasion (in the OTU), that is why I describe it as a full on invasion by the local Aslan clans. The "ihatei" story is just convenient cover for those who didn't want to admit the truth.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
For crying out loud, you manage to pretend that a 2D map accurately represents 3D space, why not take the author's word that Aslan could cause a rebellion wracked empire trouble???

The problem with the ihatei invasion is not that it is just "impossible". As you point out, Traveller encompasses lots of "impossible" things.

The problem is that it violates its own consistency. It violates the way the Aslan are said to operate (both before AND after MT). It violates how fleets interact (a ragtag TL13 fleet is going to lose to a larger TL15 defense fleet). Put bluntly, it doesn't make any sense within the context of the game itself.

And since I can't undo the Aslan invasion (in the OTU), that is why I describe it as a full on invasion by the local Aslan clans. The "ihatei" story is just convenient cover for those who didn't want to admit the truth.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Falkayn:
For crying out loud, you manage to pretend that a 2D map accurately represents 3D space, why not take the author's word that Aslan could cause a rebellion wracked empire trouble???

The problem with the ihatei invasion is not that it is just "impossible". As you point out, Traveller encompasses lots of "impossible" things.

The problem is that it violates its own consistency. It violates the way the Aslan are said to operate (both before AND after MT). It violates how fleets interact (a ragtag TL13 fleet is going to lose to a larger TL15 defense fleet). Put bluntly, it doesn't make any sense within the context of the game itself.

And since I can't undo the Aslan invasion (in the OTU), that is why I describe it as a full on invasion by the local Aslan clans. The "ihatei" story is just convenient cover for those who didn't want to admit the truth.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's an odd thing, but the DoD map from the MTJ has no Aslan worlds inside the Spinward marches, the Aslan border having been pushed back into the Trojan Reach sector.

Meanwhile the Imperial Encyclopedia explicitly lists much of Glisten subsector, and parts of 268 and Trin as completely controlled by the Aslan.

My explanation is that the map in the MT boxed set shows the extent of Aslan penetration, not their actual conquests (though they did end up with some of the lo-pop worlds). MTJ showed their stable expanded borders, and RSB showed the reestablished traditional borders instituted by the Regency.

(Same thing for the Vargr to coreward. The MT map shows the extent of their reach, not actual conquests.)

Of course, the oddest part of the whole MT/MTJ/TD maps is that while the allegiances were changing all over the place, they (DGP and GDW) never bothered to actually change any of the UWPs. So, even with the influx of unnumbered Aslan, no populations ever increased (even on the lo-pop worlds), no governments changed, no law levels changed. IIRC, even the bases didn't change!

It wasn't until the RSB that any of the UWPs were changed to reflect the new situation.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's an odd thing, but the DoD map from the MTJ has no Aslan worlds inside the Spinward marches, the Aslan border having been pushed back into the Trojan Reach sector.

Meanwhile the Imperial Encyclopedia explicitly lists much of Glisten subsector, and parts of 268 and Trin as completely controlled by the Aslan.

My explanation is that the map in the MT boxed set shows the extent of Aslan penetration, not their actual conquests (though they did end up with some of the lo-pop worlds). MTJ showed their stable expanded borders, and RSB showed the reestablished traditional borders instituted by the Regency.

(Same thing for the Vargr to coreward. The MT map shows the extent of their reach, not actual conquests.)

Of course, the oddest part of the whole MT/MTJ/TD maps is that while the allegiances were changing all over the place, they (DGP and GDW) never bothered to actually change any of the UWPs. So, even with the influx of unnumbered Aslan, no populations ever increased (even on the lo-pop worlds), no governments changed, no law levels changed. IIRC, even the bases didn't change!

It wasn't until the RSB that any of the UWPs were changed to reflect the new situation.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
It's an odd thing, but the DoD map from the MTJ has no Aslan worlds inside the Spinward marches, the Aslan border having been pushed back into the Trojan Reach sector.

Meanwhile the Imperial Encyclopedia explicitly lists much of Glisten subsector, and parts of 268 and Trin as completely controlled by the Aslan.

My explanation is that the map in the MT boxed set shows the extent of Aslan penetration, not their actual conquests (though they did end up with some of the lo-pop worlds). MTJ showed their stable expanded borders, and RSB showed the reestablished traditional borders instituted by the Regency.

(Same thing for the Vargr to coreward. The MT map shows the extent of their reach, not actual conquests.)

Of course, the oddest part of the whole MT/MTJ/TD maps is that while the allegiances were changing all over the place, they (DGP and GDW) never bothered to actually change any of the UWPs. So, even with the influx of unnumbered Aslan, no populations ever increased (even on the lo-pop worlds), no governments changed, no law levels changed. IIRC, even the bases didn't change!

It wasn't until the RSB that any of the UWPs were changed to reflect the new situation.