Battle Dress skill and Marines

[Shadowfax]

Do all Imperial Marines receive battle dress skill?

I would assume that they are all trained or qualified on battle dress so shouldn't they get that as a skill?

CT only gives them Cutlass skill.

IMTU I give army Gun Combat skill, +1EN, +1ST. I give the Marines Gun Combat skill, +1EN, +1ST, Zero-G Combat and Battledress. I don't give them cutlass, because a cutlass is about as useful as a steering wheel in a bathtub.

 

[Gadrin]

GURPS Traveller has a section called "Imperial Marines" in their
Ground Forces book and comments on Battledress training and
the Cutlass in much more detail.

Cutlass is made of "superdense" metal and is somewhat similar
to a monoblade in other RPGs (it'll slice thru armor nicely); especially
wielded by someone with enhanced ST. It's also used as a duelling
mechanism where problems can be settled between marines before
things get waaaay out of hand ...okay. It's more like a non-lethal
combat mechanism.

The CT books list "Marines" but it doesn't say whether they're all
Imperial Marines or not. Battledress is listed as a skill but not all
Marines serve aboard ships and it's certainly not an automatic
skill.

However most of the CT gms I encountered had their Imperial Marines
wearing Battledress, carrying FGMPs or PGMPs and kicking butt.


>

 

[Supplement Four]

Do all Imperial Marines receive battle dress skill?

I would assume that they are all trained or qualified on battle dress so shouldn't they get that as a skill?

CT only gives them Cutlass skill.

I would say, "No".

It depends on their MOS, where they're stationed, and the requirements of their job.

Just like modern day Marines. A helo mechanic isn't trained to rappel down a mountain. Likewise, in CT, a Marine in intelligence, working a desk job, wouldn't be trained in Battledress.

I'd say the grunts--and the best of the best of those ground pounders--are trained in Battledress.

 

[mike wightman]

All characters get certain default skills (to 1/2 or 0 depending on edition) if they can be reasonably expected to have learned them.

All marines could therefore have vacc suit to its default level.

Since vacc suit skill can be used to wear battle dress then yes, all marines can wear it.

Do all marines receive extensive combat training in battle dress and therefore battle dress 1 as a default?

No.

 

[aramis]

Neither CT Bk 1 nor MT assured marines of BD skill; in fact, BD skill was not available until Bk 4, and further, vacc suit is available but not overly common for Bk1 marines, and Bk1-3 includes Battle Dress as an armor type.

Bk 1 marines have only 1 table entry that leads to Vacc Suit; 1 line on service skills.

MT doubles the odds of having access to BD skill, but has other options as well on those two lines, due to cascade chocies.

TNE does't actually cover imperial marines, but RC Marines do get BD.

So the LKW article doesn't match the game rules.

 

[morfydd]

Cutlass Skill..not usefull?

Hmmn okay you haven't served in combat..

1. Knives swords and other melee weapons do not run out of bullets and require reloading when you are nose to nose

2. All modern assult rifles have a place to fix a bayonet for a reason

3. in boarding another vessel at sea or in space ..a melee weapon does not poke holes in pesky important ship board piping ( steam, fuel, oxygen, seawater etc etc..) after richocheting down the passageway causing damage to the ship your taking over.

4. A Sword will always cut thru armour made of the same material as the sword is made from ( basic physics and meteal lurgy)

5. Swords and Knives do not make really loud bangs when used

6. more specifically a cutlass is a heavy single edged short blade that was originally designed to cut thru very heavy rope and people fast ..even if it does not cut thru BD it can crush joints of the Armour causing them to fail making it impossible for the wearer of the Battle dress to move or attack.
A quick slash with a cutlass on a vaccumm or hazmat suit will render said item uselss instantly while maiming and possibly killing its occupant.

7. a sword does not miss the target thats in your face and blow the head of one of your team mates off.

 

[Vargas]

Just like modern day Marines. A helo mechanic isn't trained to rappel down a mountain. Likewise, in CT, a Marine in intelligence, working a desk job, wouldn't be trained in Battledress.

All Marines are expected to be riflemen however, so be careful of your analogies. If one considers that battledress is just as much a weapon as an actual, well, weapon, than perhaps a case can be made. Just food for thought.

 

[rancke]

Do all Imperial Marines receive battle dress skill?

The preponderance of the available evidence is that they do. But that's only Imperial Marine Corps marines. Nowhere does it say that all marines in Charted Space do.

CT only gives them Cutlass skill.

CT rules are generic. One of the greatest beefs I have with GDW is the tendency to take those generic tables and apply them to specific organizations without individualizing them. Like assuming that all space navies, regardless of size, have ten and only ten officer ranks all of them named exactly the same (no rear and vice admirals ).

IMTU I give army Gun Combat skill, +1EN, +1ST. I give the Marines Gun Combat skill, +1EN, +1ST, Zero-G Combat and Battledress. I don't give them cutlass, because a cutlass is about as useful as a steering wheel in a bathtub.

I'd say about as useful as a sword on an officer.


Hans

 

[Commander Truestar]

Cutlass Skill..not usefull?

4. A Sword will always cut thru armour made of the same material as the sword is made from ( basic physics and meteal lurgy)

I wanna see a demo of a steel sword cutting through steel battleship amor of the same composition heheheheh

(I know what you meant but I had to say that! It just sprung into my mind[or lack there of] and I had to share)

Marc

 

[Supplement Four]

All characters get certain default skills (to 1/2 or 0 depending on edition) if they can be reasonably expected to have learned them.

All marines could therefore have vacc suit to its default level.

Since vacc suit skill can be used to wear battle dress then yes, all marines can wear it.

True. But, there is a difference in a character with Vacc Suit-1 wearing BD and a character with Battledress-1 wearing BD.

VS allows the basic use of BD as a vacc suit only. BD skill is need to operate BD to its fullest, including all its weapon and other systems that are not found on a regular vacc suit.

What is a "Battledress"? It's a powered vacc suit with several systems attached to it--including weapon systems.

So, VS will get you into the suit and safe from the elements but it won't allow you to us all the advanced tech tacked onto the suit. You need BD for that.

All Marines are expected to be riflemen however, so be careful of your analogies. If one considers that battledress is just as much a weapon as an actual, well, weapon, than perhaps a case can be made. Just food for thought.

I almost mentioned this in my original post, but I thought it too obvious.

I believe I read an interview with MWM one time where he discusses the cutlass. He explains that he still trained with bayonnet, even though the weapon was considered obsolete, and that became the main reason Traveller marines always got cutlass.

Of course, in the Traveller universe, cutlasses do a have a use--knives and swords are much more useful in a zero-G invironent (no recoil and the ability to kill the enemy by cutting his hose).

I don't think I have to be so careful about my analogies that I made in my previous post about Battledress, though, Vargas :devil:. Have you seen the cost of BD? It's way to expensive to be a standard weapon/piece of equipment that everyone is trained to use (especially if they never have a need for it).

No, not all Imperial Marines are trained with BD.

If so...it would be in the rules, the way cutlass is (besides all these other, better, arguments).

 

[Shadowfax]

I'd say the grunts--and the best of the best of those ground pounders--are trained in Battledress.

Good Answer I think I will go with this. Thanks, you confirmed what I thought.

 

[Shadowfax]

Do all marines receive extensive combat training in battle dress and therefore battle dress 1 as a default?

No.

Thanks, sounds good. I just wanted to "bounce" it off someone else.

 

[rancke]

Good Answer I think I will go with this. Thanks, you confirmed what I thought.

S4 is, however, disregarding evidence that specifically states that all Imperial Marine Corps marines do receive battledress training, so the confirmation amounts to his opinion being similar to yours. Which is fine if you're not actually interested in canonical Imperial marines, or if you feel that generic character generation tables are more authoritative than specific writeups.

EDIT: Personally I don't see the problem with having all IMC marines being battledress trained. I suspect that I'm never going to use any battedress-equipped marines in any of my games, because there's very little the kind of PC party I usually run adventures for could do against a squad of battledressed marines. But if I need some non-battledressed Imperial marines, I'd just use some Duchy of <wherever the PCs are> marines instead.


Hans

 

[mmbutter]

I suspect that I'm never going to use any battedress-equipped marines in any of my games, because there's very little the kind of PC party I usually run adventures for could do against a squad of battledressed marines.

There is a one shot that I run at cons that has a group being chased by a squad in battledress. If the PC group gets caught (I give them lots of chances to get away, but they have been caught a few times that I've run it) I just rule that anyone who tries to shoot at them is dead, and anyone who surrenders immediately is captured and locked up - end of scenario, either way.

 

[mike wightman]

Do all the marines in the Kinunir crew roster have BD skill?

LKW really should have read up on the source material before making his pronouncement - which only applies to the GTU ;p

 

[rancke]

Do all the marines in the Kinunir crew roster have BD skill?

The Luuru, not the Kinunir. No, they don't. Which can be explained by retconning the Luuru to be a Duchy of Regina Navy ship. The Kinunirs are in dire need of retconning anyway.

LKW really should have read up on the source material before making his pronouncement - which only applies to the GTU ;p

Actually, Loren's original article was in JTAS. Which may or may not be canon, but definitely deals with the OTU.


Hans

 

[Shadowfax]

The preponderance of the available evidence is that they do. But that's only Imperial Marine Corps marines. Nowhere does it say that all marines in Charted Space do.

---------------Mea culpa! They were the only tables Marc gave me and I confess that since then I have made my own, but I forgot to put the cutlass in. That is the whole reason for this I am looking for an excuse. Its my "OMG I went against canon!" guilty conscience. = )

CT rules are generic. One of the greatest beefs I have with GDW is the tendency to take those generic tables and apply them to specific organizations without individualizing them. Like assuming that all space navies, regardless of size, have ten and only ten officer ranks all of them named exactly the same (no rear and vice admirals ).

------------------Yeah, and all their marines use cutlasses, just because the Imperium has this old tradition.

I'd say about as useful as a sword on an officer.

------------------You said it!
Hans[/QUOTE]

 

[Shadowfax]

There is a one shot that I run at cons that has a group being chased by a squad in battledress. If the PC group gets caught (I give them lots of chances to get away, but they have been caught a few times that I've run it) I just rule that anyone who tries to shoot at them is dead, and anyone who surrenders immediately is captured and locked up - end of scenario, either way.

----------------How do you run away from someone with doubled ST and unlimited endurance? Oh, nevermind. I always ask stuff like this. = )

 

[Shadowfax]

S4 is, however, disregarding evidence that specifically states that all Imperial Marine Corps marines do receive battledress training, so the confirmation amounts to his opinion being similar to yours. Which is fine if you're not actually interested in canonical Imperial marines, or if you feel that generic character generation tables are more authoritative than specific writeups.

EDIT: Personally I don't see the problem with having all IMC marines being battledress trained. I suspect that I'm never going to use any battedress-equipped marines in any of my games, because there's very little the kind of PC party I usually run adventures for could do against a squad of battledressed marines. But if I need some non-battledressed Imperial marines, I'd just use some Duchy of <wherever the PCs are> marines instead.
Hans

----------------I probably will never use BD either. I am just redoing the Skill tables adding MOSes for the individual services and wanted to get some input/feedback about Battle Dress and Cutlasses. I was thinking more along the lines of CT. Where does it say that all Marines are trained in using BD?

 

[Whipsnade]

Where does it say that all Marines are trained in using BD?

Shadowfax,

Either late CT or MT. Hans will have the precise divergence. IIRC, it was done in a JTAS article presenting a TO&E for the Imperial Marines.

The All Marines Use Battledress idea was a deliberate retcon on GDW's part, Loren Wiseman (LKW) has said so many times. GT:GF repeated the same idea at LKW's direction, something which both LKW and Doug Berry, the book's author, have said many times.

Hans' "solution" to the problems created by the retcon is simple and neatly done. The JTAS article, plus subsequent articles and books, all deal with Imperial Marines, so Hans suggests that LBB:1 chargen produces both "small-m-marines" and Imperial Marines. He also has shifted Kininur and her "battledress-free" marines from the Imperial Navy to a navy in the Imperium; i.e. the Duchy of Regina Navy.


Regards,
Bill