Battle Dress skill and Marines

[Whipsnade]

Jame,

Nice catch regarding the 332 marine, but is it really that much of a suspender snapper in CT terms?

(By the by, I've been looking over the Kinunir crew list again thanks to you! Fascinating stuff. Look at the XO, the second in command, the man is essentially useless.)

We had a few "slightly framed" guys aboard my ship and in a variety of rates too. The nucs who fit the description were parceled out between enginerooms when they reported aboard because they were handy in squeezing into certain places. We did the same thing with the big strong fellows too.

Having spent too much time waddling across our weary world and observing all the shapes and sizes our horrific species takes, I wonder if the Kinunir's 332 marine comes from a "hungry" world? You know, ones where kiddies don't get as much protein and other goodies early on as those in the Blessed West do? Nutrition aside, there are plenty of genetic groups on Earth with various inheritable height ranges.

On the other hand, Pvt. 332 could have simply been gravely injured in their brief career and has been kept on in the force as a sinecure of sorts. While I wouldn't buy that myself as they're a jump trooper, they're also a corpmen - not to dismiss corpmen, mind you - and rather well connected with a SOC of 10. Wearing battledress on a mission also means their poor physical stats won't matter.

Hmmm... tiny, average intelligence, well educated, well connected, serving as a corpmen in a squad of jump troopers... Some second daughter of a minor nobleman perhaps? Keen on doing her bit of service before marrying well? Who knows?

Implausible? Not really. Unlikely? Certainly. Fascinating? Definitely.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. Looking at the dice now... age 22, call it two terms... using LBB:1 'cause I don't have LBB:4 handy... we've got a straight 9+ to enter, no positive DMs for either STR or INT... no negatives either... straight 6+ for survival, again no positive DMs for END... straight 6+ to reenlist, no DMs at all... for a possibility of...

Enlist at 9+ is 0.278
Survive at 6+ is 0.722
Reenlist at 6+ is 0.722
Combined chance is 0.145 or 15 out of 100

Not great but not impossible.

 

[rancke]

Not all soldiers are big, tough, extras from Predator.

Many of them are normal people.

'Normal people'? Do you mean 'average people'? People with physical stats close to 777?

Look at some of the boys that went to Vietnam. Could they be described as physicals 332, as CT defines them?

You bet.

Really? OK, then tell me, people who are too physically challenged to pass a military physical (in Real Life, I mean), what would their physical stats be in CT terms? 222? 111? 000?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Hans - the problem is that the OTU of the early adventures is a vastly different universe to the OTU that became MT.

When A1-3 were written the tropes you quote were the ones in force in the OTU. Along comes HG and completely changes the OTU paradigm - it really is a waking up in the shower moment.

Actually, a lot of the things that are -- shall we say, less than plausible -- about The Kinunir were so even in the context of its own background (e.g. Regina subsector already had a population that made the 'a single Kinunir is a fearsome thing' trope ridiculous), but that's a side issue. If you want to discuss that, I suggest a separate thread would be a good idea.

So yes - sixteen Kinunir class battlecruisers were a force to be reckoned with - pre HG.

A Kinunir translated to the Mayday rules is incredibly powerful in that rules system. A Kinunir under LBB2 ship combat is also a force to be ignored at your peril.

Along comes HG and the paradigm shifts as you say.

The salient point here is that the paradigm DID shift. There's nothing wrong with preferring the original version if you can swallow or ignore all the peculiar ramifications, but the original version isn't the be-all and end-all of Classic Traveller, let alone the defining paradigm of the OTU or even the CT universe. HG ships are CT. Big fleets are CT. Loren's original article is CT. 90%(well, I'm not sure about the exact figure, but lots and lots) of the material produced for CT is post-HG. Original Traveller (or Ur-Traveller, to coin a term that doesn't abbreviate to 'OT' ) is a small, VERY sparesely documented, superceded version of CT. You might say with considerable justification that it is not "the real CT" at all :devil:. And it's most certainly not the most important part of CT.

The OTU suffers more than many rpg setting in that the designers didn't care what affect changing things like the ship paradigm etc would have on the setting - the setting was a sandbox for the rules and they didn't really hesitate to flatten the sand and build new castles.

That was then. Since then at least some of the authors who have worked on the OTU (either directly or at one remove by working on the GTU) have cared and have tried to increase the coherence and self-consistency of the setting. And I can tell you right away that trying to stick to everything said and implied by The Kinunir would not help at all. (That's not to say that I wouldn't want to keep as much of it as possible -- even if it is Ur-Traveller there are still some good, useful stuff in it too).


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

Original Traveller (or Ur-Traveller, to coin a term that doesn't abbreviate to 'OT' ) is a small, VERY sparesely documented, superceded version of CT.

Hans

Frequently referred here on CotI as Proto-Traveller.

LBB 1-3 & such material as was published before LBB-4.

 

[Vargas]

Of course, in the Traveller universe, cutlasses do a have a use--knives and swords are much more useful in a zero-G invironent (no recoil and the ability to kill the enemy by cutting his hose).

Except aren't the physics of fighting with a melee weapon in zero-g far more tricky than "point and shoot"? :devil:

 

[sabredog]

Except aren't the physics of fighting with a melee weapon in zero-g far more tricky than "point and shoot"? :devil:

I guess that would depend on if you wanted to keep one hand free to hang on to something stable (or the guy you are fighting) while swinging the cutlass or shooting a gun. The gun might be less handy in a hand to hand situation, you might be out of ammo, and a blade might just be safer to others down range who are your buddies?

 

[Supplement Four]

(By the by, I've been looking over the Kinunir crew list again thanks to you! Fascinating stuff. Look at the XO, the second in command, the man is essentially useless.)

Not really.

If you can (it's hard to) think back to when Traveller (CT) was the only Traveller in existence. There was no other edition to compare it to.

By the rules, it was very possible (not likely, statistics-wise, but possible...and I've seen it happen many more times than once) to roll up a character with low physical stats.

Let's be extreme here and say his physicals are 222.

The player decides he doesn't want to play this character--too much work, and too much skill sacrifice to improve the stats--so, he attempts enlistment in the Scouts...and fails.

Next step, by the rules, is to submit to the draft. The character ends up in the Marines--a draftee (making up a background as to why the Marines would want such a low calibur physical specimen is part of the extreme fun of CT, not unlike the fun in figuring UWP stats--or even your assumptions above. It's THIS type of thing that gives CT characters CHARACTER. It's why I love this game so.).

So, the character is a Marine, 1st Term, with stats 222XXX.

During that first term, no commission is recieved and re-enlistment is failed.

The character is 22 years old and ready to be played.

For skills, he received:

Cutlass-1 (as does every Marine)
+1 END (trying to up his stats for first term throw)
+1 DEX (trying to up his stats with second first term throw).

When he mustered out, he got +1 EDU.

So, the character enters play like this:

233XXX
Cutlass-1

Next, the player wants a boost in skills, so he uses the Book 1-3 Experience rules. On the Weapon Expertise program, he gets lucky and makes his dedication throw. Now, he can immediately pick one blade and one gun weapon skill, and have that skill be +1 level higher (instantly) on a non-permanent basis.

Since characters generated in Book 1 are considered to have all normal weapon skills at Skill-0, the player picks Shotgun-1 (because it has a low DEX penalty) and Cutlass (since he already has the skill).

The PC begins play like this:

233XXX
Cultass-2
Shotgun-1



Now, I've gone a long way here to explain a point about CT. In many situations, it is normal for characters to not have a skill.

CT is a low-skill game (in terms of quantity). Even the most skilled characters are lacking if training in a skill is a prerequisite for attempting a throw.

Back when CT was the only Traveller going, it was nothing to play a character like this. Just look at 1001 Characters. There's plenty of characters, ready to play, in that book, that have only a few skills.



Now, take our character above: 233XXX, Cutlass-2, Shotgun-1

Let's say the character is on a planet and is trying to find a black market contact.

Does the GM say, "Nope, you're screwed. You don't have Streetwise."

No!

In CT, the GM would come up with a roll to suit the character's skill. He may do something as simple as throw 2D6 and use that as a target number.

Hmm...he threw a 4, but didn't tell the player. "You see a shady character in the bar with tattoos running up his arms. What do you want to do?"

Player says, "I'll go see if I can buy him whatever it is he's drinking and try to start up a conversation."

Secretly, the GM throws 2D to govern the encounter. A throw of 6 means that the character does have connections to the black market (beating the 4 target number). Then, again secretly, the GM throws on the NPC reaction chart and uses that as a guide to play out the rest of the encounter.



See what I mean? This poor wretch of a no-statted character, 222XXX, with just two skills (Cutlass-2 and Shotgun-1)...

...made it through that scenario FINE!

THAT'S HOW CT IS PLAYED!!

Skills are necessary for every throw (remember, I said to forget every other edition of Traveller...just go by CT).

If the character DID have Streetwise skill, then that would have influenced the way the GM handled the encounter. Maybe it would be easier for the player to connect. Maybe the player would find a VIP in the black market business. As with all things in CT, it's up for the GM to look at the variables and decide how to play it.

And, this is why I continue to say that a CT character with extremely low stats and next to nothing skills is very playable in a CT game.

You just gotta get all of that "other Traveller edition" junk out of your head.

'Normal people'? Do you mean 'average people'? People with physical stats close to 777?

No, I mean "normal people". In this case, people that are slight of build and small of frame. I've known several in my life, some in the military. Especially women.

Really? OK, then tell me, people who are too physically challenged to pass a military physical (in Real Life, I mean), what would their physical stats be in CT terms? 222? 111? 000?

In CT, Stat-1 indicates physical handicap.

 

[rancke]

In CT, Stat-1 indicates physical handicap.

You didn't answer the question.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It's THIS type of thing that gives CT characters CHARACTER. It's why I love this game so.

You know, I've seen love defined as a state of mind where even the flaws of the beloved are percieved as virtues .


Hans

 

[veltyen]

Really? OK, then tell me, people who are too physically challenged to pass a military physical (in Real Life, I mean), what would their physical stats be in CT terms? 222? 111? 000?

Remember the draft. If you take everyone you can find a job for them.

222 means you'll be peeling spuds. Or depending on your other stats you might be a paperwork jockey.

For all-volunteer forces 5 or so is probably approximately the floor for any single characteristic (mental and social as well), and that would need to be made up by good stats elsewhere.

This would of course be highly dependant on how many volunteers were available. If the pool wasn't big enough then 2+ in stats might be good enough.

 

[Whipsnade]

Not really.

S4,

Yes, really.

If you can (it's hard to) think back to when Traveller (CT) was the only Traveller in existence. There was no other edition to compare it to.

If you can, and it's hard to, imagine I was examining the character from an in-game stand point just as I was examining Pvt. 332 from an in-game stand point.

This, believe it or not, this is an actual commissioned officer in the Imperial Navy who is also an Executive Officer, the second in command, of the Kinunir, an actual Imperial warship:

Executive Officer, Commander, 2B789B, Admin-4, Computer-2, Jack-o-T-1, 5 terms, Age 38

The character has no ship skills of any kind, no vacc suit skill, no weapon skills, no gunnery skill, no nothing. The character doesn't even have the best computer best skill aboard. As an XO aboard a warship, the character is useless.

They'd be helpful aboard a trader, handling all sorts of paperwork and all. A navy has paperwork too and a service branch that specializes in it, but even those people receive some military training. This character is nothing but a file clerk. So, what are they doing aboard Kinunir?

I can come up with a few excuses for their presence off the top of my pointy head:

- The officer needs "space time" towards their next promotion and used connections, they're a knight after all, to be posted aboard the vessel.

- The officer wants to change service branches to Line and again used connections to gain the posting.

- The officer is aboard to control/monitor a special mission and filling the XO position is their cover.

- The officer is aboard to control/monitor tests of special equipment, i.e. "Hal 5700", and filling the XO position is their cover.

Whatever their reason for being aboard, the XO is useless as a potential warship commander, and being a potential warship commander is precisely what an XO is.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Remember the draft. If you take everyone you can find a job for them.

But is the draft (that is, the Traveller game mechanic known as 'the draft') realistic? The only military organization that I've ever heard of that took everyone was the one in Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Do you really think it is realistic that every military organization in Charted Space (or even just a sizable number of them) would take people that, say, the US. military services wouldn't take?

In other words, is the fact that characters with physical stats 222 can become members of the Army, Navy, Marines, and Scouts proof that the Imperial militaries have no standards at all or a result of a not entirely flawless Character Creation System?

222 means you'll be peeling spuds. Or depending on your other stats you might be a paperwork jockey.

Since there is no mechanism for differentiating the skill acquisitions of characters according to their stats, this statement is obviously not true.

For all-volunteer forces 5 or so is probably approximately the floor for any single characteristic (mental and social as well), and that would need to be made up by good stats elsewhere.

For Imperial organizations, which have a pool of 15 trillion people to select from, having all personnel have all stats above average is actually quite plausible. Not that I feel any need to go quite that far in the context of the game. After all, a little implausibility can be excused if the gain in playability warrants it.

This would of course be highly dependant on how many volunteers were available. If the pool wasn't big enough then 2+ in stats might be good enough.

In countries with a real draft, getting cashiered for physical inadequacy is one way of getting out of serving (Another is to draw a high number). I'm quite certain that drafting people who can do the job will be preferred to hiring volunteers who can't.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

The character has no ship skills of any kind, no vacc suit skill, no weapon skills, no gunnery skill, no nothing. The character doesn't even have the best computer best skill aboard. As an XO aboard a warship, the character is useless.

Not in this man's Navy!

The character is a Knight!

And, useless or not, he's obtained position. Obviously, merit and being good at your job will only get you so far in the Imperial Navy. Remember...it's a fuedal government (So many Traveller discussions forget that.).

He doesn't need to be that good at anything as long as he's got the title, and maybe family, to pull the strings and cup the palms that are needed to get him an XO position on His Majesty's warship.

Golden Era Science Fiction, remember?





That's my "in game" take. My "out of game" take is that, yes, even this character is very, very playable in CT. The difference is, when he makes a throw, he'll rarely get bonuses on things. For example, he can probably operate the ship's weaponry, he's just not that good at it. The GM may even impose a negative.

Remember, in Book 2 combat, it's not a requirement to have Gunnery skill in order to operate the weapons. It's just required to officially hold the position.

The difference in this XO and a character with Gunnery-1 is that the character with Gunnery-1 gets a +1 DM on his attack throw.

Your "worthless" XO is rolling 8+ to hit, while the rating with Gunnery-1 is rolling 7+ to hit.

Seen in that light (as I've been trying to explain), the dude really ain't that worthless. This is just one example, of course, but the differnce in rolling 8+ or 7+ is not a HUGE difference.

But is the draft (that is, the Traveller game mechanic known as 'the draft') realistic?

It could be. That's up to the particular CT GM. It's all in how you reason it.

For example, one could say that the Imperium, with its 10,000+ worlds, is so big that it always has a shortage of people in its services. So, they've instituted a mandatory policy for service that is somewhat easy to avoid.

(This would be like present day Greece or Israel, both countries that require military service for a few years--from all citizens.)

Mechanics-wise, the rules say that the character gets one chance at a career. If he fails, he must submit to the draft.

"In-game" reasoning (as Bill likes to put it) is: If the character makes the enlistment throw to his chosen profession, then he's somehow beaten the draft. Otherwise, the mandatory draft catches up with him.



I think it's clear, because of CT's "Draft" that some type of Greece/Israel-ish mandatory enlistment/citizen soldier program is in place in Strephon's empire.

 

[sabredog]

Not in this man's Navy!

The character is a Knight!

And, useless or not, he's obtained position. Obviously, merit and being good at your job will only get you so far in the Imperial Navy. Remember...it's a fuedal government (So many Traveller discussions forget that.).

He doesn't need to be that good at anything as long as he's got the title, and maybe family, to pull the strings and cup the palms that are needed to get him an XO position on His Majesty's warship.

Golden Era Science Fiction, remember?





That's my "in game" take. My "out of game" take is that, yes, even this character is very, very playable in CT. The difference is, when he makes a throw, he'll rarely get bonuses on things. For example, he can probably operate the ship's weaponry, he's just not that good at it. The GM may even impose a negative.

If you have ever read the Hornblower, Bolitho, Aubrey-Maturin books you'll find plenty of examples of characters promoted far beyond their competence due to connections at court or the Admiralty, buying a commission, or just because the captain is killed in action and this guy is all that's left till they can get back home to replace him.

These types turn up all the time even in actual military history - especially when commissions can be purchased - just look up Lord Cardigan and the Charge of the Light Brigade. That boob shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near an active regiment let alone in command in battle, but he had the influence and bought the commission so there you go!

These guys can be used to develop any number of dramatic events: mutiny brews because the hard horse XO covers his incompetency with brutality...maybe he turns out to be a tactical wizard when tested in combat because he reads a lot and it surprises everyone...

I had a guy like this in my recent campaign who had his own commerce raider built to go off as a "gentleman adventurer". His crew was composed of amateur minor nobles as well. When they got into a few fights with unarmed freighters and took prizes they became pretty full of themselves. As a result when they faced off against the players they were quite taken aback to be beaten and captured.

Now when the players realized these guys (led by a rich fool with more money and influence than good sense) were absolute fish out of water as mercs on the Rim they decided to give them back their ship in return for their "parole". The captain (a Marquis) was so grateful that he pledged that if they ever needed help, or "perhaps and introduction at court?" he would be at their service. Which is what I had hoped would happen - so long as the players didn't decide to humiliate the guy by keeping his ship and embarrassing him in front of his noble buddies. Now they have a potentially useful contact and/or patron for later in the campaign.

So, this weird seeming XO might turn out to have some dramatic purpose if used creatively.

 

[Supplement Four]

So, this weird seeming XO might turn out to have some dramatic purpose if used creatively.

Yep. I think that's part of the fun of CT, as I mentioned before.

I like "reading" a subsector, seeing what the details and stats tell me about the area (one can make a lot of deductions about how the atmosphere of the subesector in terms of economics and politics by looking at the stats--and, a smart GM puts this flavor in his game).

I like figuring out how unlikely UWPs are possible (as is many weird things in nature).

And, I sure like looking at CT NPCs and seeing what the stats and background tells me.

One could pour over the Adventure 1 crew list and probably pick out several strong, dramatic characters, just based on the stats...just like our foppish XO, here.

The devil is in the details, and sometimes the key to characters is in their stats.

 

[aramis]

Except aren't the physics of fighting with a melee weapon in zero-g far more tricky than "point and shoot"? :devil:

Grab-n-stab. Grapple-n-bash. Snag-n-swing.

Not really more tricky. Just harder to do with only two grasping limbs.

Uplifted apes, however, have 4 grasping limbs... hold handholds with 1-2, hold you with 1-2, and poke/swing the cutlass at you with the last....

 

[rancke]

For example, one could say that the Imperium, with its 10,000+ worlds, is so big that it always has a shortage of people in its services.

One could say that about the Imperial military services if one didn't care about self-consistency, yes. But could one say the same for every military service in Charted Space?


Hans

 

[rancke]

I think it's clear, because of CT's "Draft" that some type of Greece/Israel-ish mandatory enlistment/citizen soldier program is in place in Strephon's empire.

I think it's obvious, because it would be ridiculous for the Imperium to have a draft that furnished recruits for the Others ("We want YOU for the Imperial Other Service!"), that the draft is a game mechanic.


Hans

 

[Jame]

Jame,

Nice catch regarding the 332 marine, but is it really that much of a suspender snapper in CT terms?

Not in CT terms, no. But in realism terms, yes. If I ever use the Kinunir (and that'll be a while, as I prefer playing to GMing), he is going to be given +3 to his physical stats; while he'll be on the low end, he'll still be what I consider realistic (as usual, YMMV since I expect half of the people to not care, and those that disagree with me to be doing it out of sheer disagreeability:devil: ). Oh, and the ship's locker will be upgraded in my usage.

(By the by, I've been looking over the Kinunir crew list again thanks to you! Fascinating stuff. Look at the XO, the second in command, the man is essentially useless.)

Glad to help! I hadn't thought to look at what the characters' skill meant in terms of actual shipboard ability, so I'm glad someone told me I should.

Except aren't the physics of fighting with a melee weapon in zero-g far more tricky than "point and shoot"? :devil:

And would require better stats than 332. Even if the character is a corpsman (and she wouldn't be on the line of battle...).

 

[rancke]

Not in CT terms, no. But in realism terms, yes. If I ever use the Kinunir (and that'll be a while, as I prefer playing to GMing), he is going to be given +3 to his physical stats...

Just a side note: It's not the Kinunir. The Kinunir doesn't have a crew. It hasn't had a crew in twenty years. It's the Luuru.

(And, yes, I know that in one sense that's totally irrelevant, but I just want to keep the record straight.)


Hans