Battle Dress skill and Marines

[Shadowfax]

Sure, I can see them giving you a KBAR course or something. I could see a weapon like an entrenching tool, a Gurkha knife, a machete or a K-Bar, but not a cutlass. Maybe they have some can-opener that cuts through battledress and combat armor like hot knife through butter. Yeah, I can see it then. I can also see some high-bred officer types carrying on the Emperor's tradition, but I doubt there are any serious combat applications not very often anyway.

1. Knives swords and other melee weapons do not run out of bullets and require reloading when you are nose to nose

Yeah, but it just doesn't happen that often. Okay, boarding actions, urban situations and maybe every now and then, but realistically those don't happen that much either. Traveller spans so many tech levels, so I am sure at lower techs there is more close combat, but I wasn't really talking about that. Cramped quarters makes it easier, but I doubt that boarding actions happen all that often. If they do it will be when one side thinks they have an advantage: Numeric; Technological or through surprise.

I opened a thread about boarding actions a while back. Of course we like to have them, because its a fantasy game and they are fun, but if we were to think about it realistically I think we'd agree that they do not happen as often as we'd like them to. When navies slug it out there are going to be charred hulks and I pity any survivors left on them. There is no real advantage to boarding such a hulk and any survivors would probably welcome you for saving them from certain death drifting in space.

As for pirates, well they are going to try to do an inside job. A combination Hijacking boarding action could occur. There is a lot of effort just to board a ship though. First you have to intercept it. You have to catch it where or when it is unable to jump. You have to then disable its maneuver drive. Then you have to take out all the batteries bearing on the side you want to board. Then you are going to have to gain entry either by matching vectors and docking. Or by breaching the hull, which will significantly lower the value of the ship. If Pirates have the resources they will take the ship aside and let the life support run out, negotiating with the crew all the while. If there is a superior numerical advantage or technological advantage, I mean one that encourages boarding, then the disadvantaged side is more liable to give up than to fight on. See the thread on boarding actions for more on this. I am digressing too much here.

2. All modern assult rifles have a place to fix a bayonet for a reason

Yeah, no one is wearing the equivalent of tech 11 combat armor or battle dress ("the ultimate in physical protection").

3. in boarding another vessel at sea or in space ..a melee weapon does not poke holes in pesky important ship board piping ( steam, fuel, oxygen, seawater etc etc..) after richocheting down the passageway causing damage to the ship your taking over.

I agree with you here, but when I talked about boarding actions before a few people seemed convinced that the boarders would come through the breach firing their FGMP-15s. I personally like the idea of a boarding action where the boarders want the ship and for that reason try to keep the damage to the interior of the vessel to a minimum. If I was the 3rd of 4th guy going through that breach I would want a FGMP-15 though or at least an auto-shotgun. Note, I said 3rd or 4th through the breach, because I figure that the first three guys who go through are either warbots or they are hamburger!

4. A Sword will always cut thru armour made of the same material as the sword is made from ( basic physics and meteal lurgy)

Ok, I could see it if the damned thing was some kind of high-tech vibro-sword, light sabre, monofiliment or the like, but it isn't described that way in CT. Its just "a heavy, flat-bladed, single-edged weapon featuring a full-basket hilt to protect the hand." (Book 3, Page 37) There is no mention of the material or it being high tech. It sounds like the damned thing is made of steel to me.

5. Swords and Knives do not make really loud bangs when used

Yeah, I agree with you on this for the most part.

On boarding actions though there probably wouldn't be any sound. I seriously doubt that any boarded ship would still be pressurized, unless they made a deal and the captains are going to duel it out with those cutlasses.

Most ships boarded by force will have depressurized before ship combat started to reduce the effects of explosive decompression. Considering that the bearing batteries and maneuver drive have to be disabled there is also a good chance that the hull has been holed. That means - no sounds. Maybe when the bullet hits your vacc suit or pressurized armor you'd maybe hear it inside the suit, but not for long. Imagine a "tink-splotsch!!!---Tssssssssssssssssssssss!" If you can still hear the "Tssss" it means you are unlucky and the other guy was a bad shot. = )

6. more specifically a cutlass is a heavy single edged short blade that was originally designed to cut thru very heavy rope and people fast ..even if it does not cut thru BD it can crush joints of the Armour causing them to fail making it impossible for the wearer of the Battle dress to move or attack.

You think? I am not sure. I guess it depends on what the cutlass is made of. Once again, the odds are against a person pulling this off before the other guy in the armor shoots him or crushes him with his servo-powered grip. I am not saying that it couldn't be done. I am just saying that it probably wouldn't happen often.

A quick slash with a cutlass on a vaccumm or hazmat suit will render said item uselss instantly while maiming and possibly killing its occupant.

Now that is for sure. I agree. Provided you know how to cut. I have seen people try to cut something with a sword and not manage to do it, but then again they weren't Imperial marines and they didn't have cutlass skill. It was still pretty damned funny to watch though. = )

Thanks for your input. I just left the cutlasses out and realized that I would have to fill in the skill everywhere in my skill tables.

7. a sword does not miss the target thats in your face and blow the head of one of your team mates off.

No, but it can miss and slice it off or put a nice puncture wound in it. You can miss with a sword too. Or are you talking about shooting through the target's skull into your buddies behind the target?


As for the rest, I sent you a private message. Have a look.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Maybe they have some can-opener that cuts through battledress and combat armor like hot knife through butter.

I prefer the EMP grenade.
Go in with advanced teams carrying fiber backup comms, TL 6 weapons and EMP grenades.

Toss one and fry all the enemy's electronics(Unlless they are fiber as well...LOL)

Marc

 

[Shadowfax]

S4 is, however, disregarding evidence that specifically states that all Imperial Marine Corps marines do receive battledress training, so the confirmation amounts to his opinion being similar to yours. Which is fine if you're not actually interested in canonical Imperial marines, or if you feel that generic character generation tables are more authoritative than specific writeups.
EDIT: Personally I don't see the problem with having all IMC marines being battledress trained. I suspect that I'm never going to use any battedress-equipped marines in any of my games, because there's very little the kind of PC party I usually run adventures for could do against a squad of battledressed marines. But if I need some non-battledressed Imperial marines, I'd just use some Duchy of <wherever the PCs are> marines instead.
Hans

Where did you read that all Imperial marines are trained in Battle Dress? I thought I read that once too, but I couldn't find it. I'd love to know where that is.

In any case, to me it would be more logical for all marines to be trained in gun combat and Battle dress than to be trained in Cutlass and have all their officers be trained in revolver. Of course this ignores the fact that the service is not always the most logical of organizations, but lets just put that aside for now for the sake of argument. . .

The marines are the elite of the Imperium. They are equipped to Tech level 15. I have never seen an Imperial marine unit in CT that wasn't tech-15. So who the hell uses cutlasses and revolvers at tech-15?! As a tradition for officers maybe. If ritualistic dueling is still alive and well in the Imperium maybe.

I could understand the argument that battle dress is expensive, but maybe they use cheap BD simulators to train the men. Even if it is too expensive to train all the marines on it, then at least all of the ground-pounders will be trained on it IMHO.

 

[aramis]

Shadowfax,

Either late CT or MT. Hans will have the precise divergence. IIRC, it was done in a JTAS article presenting a TO&E for the Imperial Marines.

The All Marines Use Battledress idea was a deliberate retcon on GDW's part, Loren Wiseman (LKW) has said so many times. GT:GF repeated the same idea at LKW's direction, something which both LKW and Doug Berry, the book's author, have said many times.

Hans' "solution" to the problems created by the retcon is simple and neatly done. The JTAS article, plus subsequent articles and books, all deal with Imperial Marines, so Hans suggests that LBB:1 chargen produces both "small-m-marines" and Imperial Marines. He also has shifted Kininur and her "battledress-free" marines from the Imperial Navy to a navy in the Imperium; i.e. the Duchy of Regina Navy.


Regards,
Bill

It was also a retcon that didn't get retained just a year or two later when MT was put together. And was not picked up for T4, either.

in fact, the only places all marines have BD skill are:
in GT (1/2 point)
in Loren's article
in MGT (level 0)
in TNE - which explicitly is the RC Marines, not the Imperial Marines.

And Mongoose has been clear that the MGT rules are not the OTU.

 

[sabredog]

IMTU:

1) Only the Terran Empire has the Marines. Each world has an army with a Marine cadre (anything from a company to a Regiment or more depending on the size of the world) but the army isn't usually up to Imperial TL standards and has Combat Armor. The army is expected to do the majority of the fighting while the Marines are to protect Imperial interests and provide support. If the Fleet and more Marines have to get involved then the world might end up "burned to ash in order to save it", so they are kept as the ultimate weapon of last resort, or when a strong message needs to be sent by having them drop in on a "Goodwill Visit". Probably along with a 500kt Camerone class battlecarrier and its support fleet to carry them.

2) Every Marine is a rifleman first and a "whatever" after, but not all of them use, or should use, BD. The tankers don't use it, neither do the dropship crews, SP arty crews, etc.. But the Line Infantry are trained in it and use it. Everyone else has Combat Armor or some variant (like the tankers so they can fit in the vehicles). I have a light powered armor version for the arty and recon vehicle crews since they have to dismount to scout, or service big rocket howitzers, etc..

3) All Marines have been familiarized in the use of BD, but that doesn't mean they are proficient in it and can use it as the active weapon system I have it designed as IMTU rather than as a passive defensive armor in the OTU. But they can get into the one-size-fits-most suits in case of an emergency and help out the regular BD troops since the suits make carrying ammo, wounded, and other things easier.

4) ALL Drop Troopers are highly proficient in use of BD. In fact, thier suits are even better than the Line Marine suits since they carry more onboard weapons and have more enhancements. This is because these troops are the pathfinders, saboteurs, deep recon, LRRP types IMTU and are on thier own for a long time w/out hvy support and what they carry on their person when they drop is all they have. They consider themselves far better than the Marines, but the Marines fell the Drop Troops are just dumber than the average bootneck. But there are only a very few Drop Regiments IMTU.

 

[BlackBat242]

I would say, "No".

It depends on their MOS, where they're stationed, and the requirements of their job.

Just like modern day Marines. A helo mechanic isn't trained to rappel down a mountain.

Ummm... EVERY "modern day Marine" learns the basics of rappelling.

I know from personal experience (Marine Recruit Depot San Diego, Ca. 2nd Battalion, Platoon 2037, June-Aug 1981)... these are from my "boot camp book", which each of us received after graduation (stock photos taken a couple of years before the "specific platoon shots"):

demo:

practice:

Just to show a point... why many PCs get a lot of "default level-0 skills" during their career.



And Cutlass is pertinent... modern soldiers are still doing bayonet charges:
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14911

WITH BAYONETS ATTACHED, THEY FINISHED OFF THE ENEMY WHO HAD NOT RUN AWAY..

May 21 2004

SCOTS TELL OF CHARGE

By Keith Mcleod And Michael Christie

SCOTS soldiers last night told how they launched a bayonet charge on Iraqi militiamen after hours of battle.

An Army insider last night gave the Record an insight into the bravery of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

They were forced to use 'cold steel' as supplies of ammunition ran low.

Many of the militiamen turned and fled but the close-quarters fighting left around 20 rebels dead.

Thirty-five of Shia Moslem cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's followers died and two British troops were injured during the three-hour battle.

A senior Argylls officer said last night: 'After a fierce fight and with small amounts of ammo left, they put in a conventional left-flanking attack.

'With bayonets attached, they finished off the enemy who had not run off.'

It was the first time in 22 years the Army had used bayonets in action.

The last came when the Scots Guards stormed Argentinian positions during the Falklands War.

The battle developed following a distress call from a group of eight British soldiers last Friday.

The troops under the command of Major Adam Griffiths were surrounded on the notorious Route Six highway while en route to Camp Abu Naji in southern Iraq. Their LandRovers were riddled with bullets and they came under attack from rocket launchers and grenades.

But as a 30-strong platoon of Argylls responded to the SOS, the militia were getting reinforcements.

The men from the Stirlingshire-based regiment were forced to dig in and shoot back.

The Argylls were aided by a detachment of the Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment, who arrived at the scene in armoured Warrior vehicles.

More than 150 Iraqis were said to be involved in last week's battle. Military sources say the militiamen miscalculated the response from the original group of soldiers.

Last night, a source said: 'Morale is very good following this serious incident.

'The insurgents have been laying ambushes on Route Six one of the main roads between Basra and Baghdad for some time.

'Previously, the response from small British groups has been drive on. These militiamen were obviously expecting this to happen again.

'The enemy have been picking their targets, mainly two LandRovers with six to eight soldiers on board. With those odds, it is sometimes best to keep on going, but the attack was so sustained, the LandRovers stopped and returned fire.

'We now hope that these attacks on Route Six will stop, but we are taking nothing for granted.'

Intelligence gathered since the bayonet charge suggests it shocked the militia fighters, who expected the outnumbered Scots to flee.

The source added: 'The injuries received by our troops were shrapnel to the hand and shrapnel to the groin. Both of these casualties were as a result of rocket-propelled grenades fired at them.

'Both the injured guys are back with their units and doing fine.'

The Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment arrived on the scene in 37ton Warriors just as the Scots' ammo was getting low.

They found many Iraqi militia fleeing the bayonet charge.

Around 20 Iraqis who chose to stand and fight were killed by the troops of both regiments.

The Argylls' forebears formed The Thin Red Line which kept 25,000 Russians at bay at Balaclava during the Crimean War of the 1850s.

In 1967, Argylls commander Lieutenant-Colonel Colin Mitchell known as Mad Mitch stormed a rebel stronghold in Yemen.

Accompanied only by 15 pipers playing Scotland The Brave, he recaptured Crater Town, the commercial heart of Aden, which had been in enemy hands for two weeks.

The regiment has won 16 Victoria Crosses.

 

[Shadowfax]

IMTU:

1) Only the Terran Empire has the Marines. Each world has an army with a Marine cadre (anything from a company to a Regiment or more depending on the size of the world) but the army isn't usually up to Imperial TL standards and has Combat Armor. The army is expected to do the majority of the fighting while the Marines are to protect Imperial interests and provide support. If the Fleet and more Marines have to get involved then the world might end up "burned to ash in order to save it", so they are kept as the ultimate weapon of last resort, or when a strong message needs to be sent by having them drop in on a "Goodwill Visit". Probably along with a 500kt Camerone class battlecarrier and its support fleet to carry them.

Terran Empire? You mean the Solomani? or the Imperium after the Solomani take it over administratively? Sorry, we play mostly in the Spinward Marches.

IMTU the Imperial army does the bulk of the fighting too and they are also not always up to the standard of the marines as well.

In the Spinward Marches and according to the 5th Frontier War Game the Imperial Marines seem to be separated into battalions and spread all over protecting Imperial interests, so that all fits as far as I am concerned.

So OTUs are alike at least in this respect or these respects as it were.

IMTU:
2) Every Marine is a rifleman first and a "whatever" after, but not all of them use, or should use, BD. The tankers don't use it, neither do the dropship crews, SP arty crews, etc.. But the Line Infantry are trained in it and use it. Everyone else has Combat Armor or some variant (like the tankers so they can fit in the vehicles). I have a light powered armor version for the arty and recon vehicle crews since they have to dismount to scout, or service big rocket howitzers, etc..

Ok, that all sounds reasonable to me. I like the lighter powered recon version. You always have good ideas!

Giving everyone else combat armor makes sense too.

IMTU:
3) All Marines have been familiarized in the use of BD, but that doesn't mean they are proficient in it and can use it as the active weapon system I have it designed as IMTU rather than as a passive defensive armor in the OTU. But they can get into the one-size-fits-most suits in case of an emergency and help out the regular BD troops since the suits make carrying ammo, wounded, and other things easier.

Ok. What do you mean by active weapons system here?

IMTU:
4) ALL Drop Troopers are highly proficient in use of BD. In fact, thier suits are even better than the Line Marine suits since they carry more onboard weapons and have more enhancements. This is because these troops are the pathfinders, saboteurs, deep recon, LRRP types IMTU and are on thier own for a long time w/out hvy support and what they carry on their person when they drop is all they have. They consider themselves far better than the Marines, but the Marines fell the Drop Troops are just dumber than the average bootneck. But there are only a very few Drop Regiments IMTU.

IMTU the Marines are the ones who guard the starport and other important imperial interests. They are also the guys who go in either as special forces (i.e. WWII commandos) or as shock troops. Obviously, there are different types of units for each type of mission.

The Army does the bulk of the fighting and has a few jump troops and a lot of lift infantry. The Marines have almost entirely jump troops or drop troops and very few lift infantry brigades. Thus the Marines usually go in first and the army follows. The marines are also skilled in boarding actions and conduct anti-piracy missions.

There are three principle sizes of unit although they are not set in stone: Brigade, Battalion and then what I call a section or garrison. Sections are used for small actions like boarding actions, counter-terrorist mission (freeing hostages etc. ), a section sized unit is also used as a garrison to guard some asset such as a relay station, refueling point, sensor station, planetary defense battery site, starport etc.. Of course it depends on the size of the facility. One section isn't enough to guard a large facility like a big type-A starport. During wartime marines are also organized into divisions to conduct planetary assaults.

IMTU Marine infantry, jump infantry, drop infantry and lift infantry all are equipped with Battle Dress. Armored, support and artillery units are outfitted with what I call combat environment armor, which is like a hybrid between the combat environment suit and combat armor. My recon guys just have regular BD. I didn't think about issuing them a lighter recon version of powered armor.

 

[Shadowfax]

And Cutlass is pertinent... modern soldiers are still doing bayonet charges:

Just for clarity: I am not saying that it doesn't ever happen, but lets put it in perspective. . . this was one unit out of all the units serving at that time and this was one action out of the hundreds maybe even thousands of actions carried out by the Brits in Iraq.

You also did state:

"It was the first time in 22 years the Army had used bayonets in action."

I agree with you fully about the zero level skills and think that a lot of them are probably even skill level one. IMTU Marines get +1ST; +1 EN; gun combat, zero-G combat and battle dress as initial skills. After that, they get one more initial skill based on their MOS. Infantry gets another level of gun combat. Armored gets either Vehicle, gunnery or Field artillery (IMTU there is no separate skill for vehicle mounted guns). Artillery gets Fwd Observer or Field artillery. Support (I clumped them all together) gets a choice from Administration, medic, vehicle, mechanic, electronics, computer, communications or logistics. (we added logistics as a new skill).

The army gets only +1ST, +1EN and Gun Combat.

The navy gets Zero-G combat and Vacc Suit, but no gun combat. (I see them playing "photon" in zero-G training sort of like in Ender's Game. Have you read this Sci-fi Novel? Its pretty good.)

Anyway that's how I do it IMTU. = )

 

[Supplement Four]

S4 is, however, disregarding evidence that specifically states that all Imperial Marine Corps marines do receive battledress training, so the confirmation amounts to his opinion being similar to yours.

You're taking a position that is shakey, at best. It's one of those things that was introduced but not kept in the universe--kinda like +points of damage or (my favorite) the inability of a vessel with a 1G M-Drive being able to make escape velocity from a Size 10+ world.

Either late CT or MT. Hans will have the precise divergence. IIRC, it was done in a JTAS article presenting a TO&E for the Imperial Marines.

I think it was MT.

Hans' "solution" to the problems created by the retcon is simple and neatly done. The JTAS article, plus subsequent articles and books, all deal with Imperial Marines, so Hans suggests that LBB:1 chargen produces both "small-m-marines" and Imperial Marines. He also has shifted Kininur and her "battledress-free" marines from the Imperial Navy to a navy in the Imperium; i.e. the Duchy of Regina Navy.

Yep, Whipsnake is correct. Lots of retconning and figuring going on that isn't really canon.

It's always best to look at a Traveller rules edition as a single entity. There are always differences in the "universe" between editions. Sometimes those changes are tiny, as with MT, but still there. Sometimes they're huge, as with TNE or MGT.

There's all sorts of discussion about TNE's HePLAR drives...or if MT's thruster plates apply to CT...or T4's Fusion+.

If you're playing CT, stick with CT sources for less headache...and "retconning" as Hans is doing/reporting.

Sure, I can see them giving you a KBAR course or something. I could see a weapon like an entrenching tool, a Gurkha knife, a machete or a K-Bar, but not a cutlass. Maybe they have some can-opener that cuts through battledress and combat armor like hot knife through butter. Yeah, I can see it then. I can also see some high-bred officer types carrying on the Emperor's tradition, but I doubt there are any serious combat applications not very often anyway.

In CT, there are serious combat applications.

First, it's a tradition stretching back to the Second Imperium.

Second, remember that CT is a good-old-days, golden-era, space opera. So, Imperial Marines in Battledress, skirting across the outside of a pirate's hull using their magnetic boots and dicing up the enemy with their cutlasses is all part of the atmosphere.

Remember that CT is influenced by all sorts of golden era science fiction. I've never read anything personally, but then again, I haven't read a lot of the sci-fi that CT is based upon. If you check some of those old books, I'd bet money you'd find a scene where Maines use cutlasses or some other type of sword.

Where did you read that all Imperial marines are trained in Battle Dress? I thought I read that once too, but I couldn't find it. I'd love to know where that is.

As Whipsnade mentions above, I'm pretty sure that happened in MT (and was forgotten). I don't think there's a CT reference (but I may be wrong).

I'd ignore it if playing a CT game.



Best Advice To Give You, though, is this: Forget obscur rules like this, anyway. Don't be a slave to the rules. I think d20 and D&D have conditioned so many gamers to behave this way.

The spirit of CT is, "Figure out what works for you and yours, and go with it! Have fun!"

Also remember that space is big. What may be true for the Imperial Marines in one Sector may be a bit different in another.

Don't forget out spread out the empire is. Don't forget how long it takes communication to travel.

I could easily believe that Imperial Marines, Trained in the Sol Sector are a bit different than those trained in the Spinward Marches.

In other words...there's room for all the favorite answers!

 

[Brian Smaller]

In my campaigns I have no problems with giving ex-Marine characters Battledress skill. Having the skill to drive one and having a suit of it are two different things

 

[sabredog]

Terran Empire? You mean the Solomani? or the Imperium after the Solomani take it over administratively? Sorry, we play mostly in the Spinward Marches.

Well, I prefaced my post with "IMTU"...I developed my TU when the game first came out and have never used the OTU as a result because developing that future history and all the details of my own campaign is one of the things I love so much about the game. So, my Terran Confederation eventually turned into the Terran Empire. I think sword n' blaster space opera needs empires.

Ok, that all sounds reasonable to me. I like the lighter powered recon version. You always have good ideas!

Giving everyone else combat armor makes sense too.

Thank you.

Ok. What do you mean by active weapons system here?

Essentially I have always felt BD should be a weapon system as much as a defensive system. The light suits I described are smaller and don't have integral weapons or active counter measures in them except for some stealth and ECM gear for the recon guys. Those can be assumed to be the basic suit as described in CT without any added modifiers.

For the actual "fighting suits" see this link for a full description and modifiers to get some idea of how the BD is worked up IMTU as a force multiplier for the Marines using them.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20073

IMTU the Marines are the ones who guard the starport and other important imperial interests. They are also the guys who go in either as special forces (i.e. WWII commandos) or as shock troops. Obviously, there are different types of units for each type of mission.

Mine, too. The starports within the Empire are under Imperial law while the world outside can make its own laws so long as they don't conflict with Imperial interests. So the Line Marines guard the ports while the local army guards the world...which also creates interesting conflict between units that add color.

Also, in the original Terran Confederation a condition of membership by a world (or cluster if they pooled resources) was that it maintained its own navy and armed services to be backed up if needed by the Terran Marine Corps. Now that it is an Empire this system has remained, but the Line Marines (as opposed to the Fleet Marines and Drop Troops) now at as cadres that are permanently based on those worlds to support and train the local army. It was felt by the Emperor as a better way to not just maintain better local control, but also keeps a better standard of training for across world operations.

The Army does the bulk of the fighting and has a few jump troops and a lot of lift infantry. The Marines have almost entirely jump troops or drop troops and very few lift infantry brigades. Thus the Marines usually go in first and the army follows. The marines are also skilled in boarding actions and conduct anti-piracy missions.

Same here, but I have Line Marines for the ground, organized in regiments. Drop Troops are the elite (their motto is "Jump or Die") and are used for special ops. And the shipboard Marines (called Fleet Marines) are trained and equipped (no BD) for boarding actions, and cross-trained in some ship operations like gunnery, damage control, and have an aviation section with their own fighter squadrons.

IMTU Marine infantry, jump infantry, drop infantry and lift infantry all are equipped with Battle Dress. Armored, support and artillery units are outfitted with what I call combat environment armor, which is like a hybrid between the combat environment suit and combat armor. My recon guys just have regular BD. I didn't think about issuing them a lighter recon version of powered armor.

My tanker crews use a suit that is similar to combat, but not as stiff and consists mainly of torso, helmet, and heavy boots and gauntlets. It's flexible and is equivalent to Combat -1. It's sealed for even vacuum and far easier to wear in a tank or IFV. It doesn't have any datalinks for weapons like FGMP's since the armored crews use gauss SMG's. The armor is designed to mainly protect them from spalling and fire inside the vehicle as well as what might be happening outside should they need (or survive) to bail out.

The recon suits and arty crew suits have the same power boosting systems a usual suit does , but only adds 1/2 the STR value of the wearer since it's a lighter and more streamlined suit. Again, neither has the links for FGMP-14's, or all the other onboard weapons and defenses the regular suits do, but the wearer's are either not expected to have to engage the enemy directly, or (as in the case of the recon suits) are loaded with ECM and other stealth type gear and are for scouting, not a stand-up fight.

 

[rancke]

You're taking a position that is shakey, at best.

I'm taking the position that a detailed article about a subject has greater authority than generic rules. To retcon a feature that was described in an settings article, you need another writeup of the same subject, or at least a specific statement of fact. Otherwise it's just an inadequate rule that doesn't cover "reality" completely.

It's always best to look at a Traveller rules edition as a single entity.

It's more useful and constructive to regard different Traveller editions as different (and occassionally erroneous) descriptions of the same universe.

As Whipsnade mentions above, I'm pretty sure that happened in MT (and was forgotten). I don't think there's a CT reference (but I may be wrong).

It was mentioned in a JTAS article describing the Imperial Marines. It was never in any of the CT rules, and AFAIK it wasn't in the MT rules either.

I'd ignore it if playing a CT game.

I'd ignore it if you don't like it and keep it if you like it. I'd keep it if you're writing canon material. However, if, for some reason, it's important to you that your TU conform as closely as possible to the OTU, then you might as well flip a coin and hope for the best, because there's no telling which the next writer of a article about the Imperial Marines will decide to go with.

Best Advice To Give You, though, is this: Forget obscur rules like this, anyway. Don't be a slave to the rules.

It's not a rule, it's a detail in a setting description. A rule would be:

Automatic skills: If, and only if, serving in the Imperial Marines, get Battle Dress-1 automatically.​

Hans

 

[mike wightman]

We have detailed rules for CT though.

They produced the crew roster in A1 - generated using LBB4 no less.

Retconing is all well and good if it solves a major problem, but such a problem doesn't exist.
LKW expressed his opinion about Imperial Marines and got it wrong from a canon point of view - he hadn't read A1 in as much detail as the rest of us apparently.

 

[rancke]

We have detailed rules for CT though.

'Detailed' is not the term I would use for a set of generic rules that would make every single marine forces in Charted Space a carbon copy of all the others. In fact, the term I would use is 'not detailed'.

They produced the crew roster in A1 - generated using LBB4 no less.

A1? That would be the vastly powerful 1200T cruiser, one of which withstood over four hours of steady attack from the barbarians before suffering screen faulure, right? Another one of which was donated by a benevolent Imperium to the Darrians (after having its weaponry reduced, of course -- can't let the secret of the missile rack into the hands of foreigners, not even allies); such a powerful ship would surely make a welcome addition to the Darrians' own forces. And the Vegans got one too! But the Imperium is rich, so no doubt it could afford it. After all, it built SIXTEEN of them! And the Regina subsector has FOUR of them? Fancy that! But then, Regina needs powerful defenses in place. After all, it is nearly four years out from the Imperial core.

No, we certainly wouldn't want to change or ignore any of the many fine facts established by The Kinunir. Every word is pure gold. Accept no substitute!

Retconing is all well and good if it solves a major problem, but such a problem doesn't exist.

LKW expressed his opinion about Imperial Marines and got it wrong from a canon point of view - he hadn't read A1 in as much detail as the rest of us apparently.

Words fail me.


Hans

 

[Jame]

They produced the crew roster in A1 - generated using LBB4 no less.

And didn't quite think about what stats they used - one of them had SDE of 3, 3, 2 - that one wouldn't have made it through boot camp on a physical kick, even if (he) was well connected.

Though one of the things in A1 that got to me was that squad 3 was "typical Marines", but not in either combat armor or battledress and using the APC to get around. I don't have a problem with them using the APC to get around, or not having Battledress, but I would think that Marines would have combat armor if serving aboard a Kinunir-type vessel which is TL 15 and supposed to be first-line combat service.

 

[Supplement Four]

And didn't quite think about what stats they used - one of them had SDE of 3, 3, 2 - that one wouldn't have made it through boot camp on a physical kick, even if (he) was well connected.

But, this is possible in CT. One can easily roll low physicals and make it through the Marine chargen. Well...I don't know how "easy" it is. The Marine chargen is a killer with survival. But, it can be done. I've done it before.

Also remember, in CT, a low stat, like STR-2, doesn't mean the character is an invalid. (I think it was T4 before the charts came out about a STR-2 being a very weak, almost crippled, character. CT is different, and STR-2 is playable.) STR-2 just indicates a scrawny, small framed, somewhat physically weak person.

Physicals 332 is completely playable.

 

[rancke]

CT is different, and STR-2 is playable.) STR-2 just indicates a scrawny, small framed, somewhat physically weak person.

The kind of person that, realistically, wouldn't pass a military physical, you mean?


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Hans - the problem is that the OTU of the early adventures is a vastly different universe to the OTU that became MT.

When A1-3 were written the tropes you quote were the ones in force in the OTU. Along comes HG and completely changes the OTU paradigm - it really is a waking up in the shower moment.

So yes - sixteen Kinunir class battlecruisers were a force to be reckoned with - pre HG.

A Kinunir translated to the Mayday rules is incredibly powerful in that rules system. A Kinunir under LBB2 ship combat is also a force to be ignored at your peril.

Along comes HG and the paradigm shifts as you say.

I agree with S4 - stick to CT basics.

The OTU suffers more than many rpg setting in that the designers didn't care what affect changing things like the ship paradigm etc would have on the setting - the setting was a sandbox for the rules and they didn't really hesitate to flatten the sand and build new castles.

 

[Supplement Four]

The kind of person that, realistically, wouldn't pass a military physical, you mean?

Not all soldiers are big, tough, extras from Predator.

Many of them are normal people.

Some are (oh my gosh!) members of the weaker sex. (Women.)

Look at some of the boys that went to Vietnam. Could they be described as physicals 332, as CT defines them?

You bet.

 

[Whipsnade]

The OTU suffers more than many rpg setting in that the designers didn't care what affect changing things like the ship paradigm etc would have on the setting - the setting was a sandbox for the rules and they didn't really hesitate to flatten the sand and build new castles.

Mike,

That was very nicely put! I'll be quoting and paraphrasing it from now on if you don't mind!

Traveller's rules-setting difficulties have more to do with it's "vintage" than anything else. Continuity of setting simply wasn't an issue during the RPG industry's wild youth. It was something that was rarely, if ever, thought of. RPG writers/companies assumed people would create their own settings or heavily modify existing ones just miniature wargame players already did. It took a while for the industry to realize that people would want to play settings "straight out of the can" or that doing so saved GMs and players huge amounts of preparation time.

I believe the RPG version of the "Operating System War" had an effect too. Once players didn't need to pick a different RPG system every time they wanted to play a different genre, the emphasis on settings and settings with greater internal consistency necessarily grew.


Regards,
Bill