Battle Dress skill and Marines

[sabredog]

Subsequent rolls of JoaT are used to gain or boost other skills, with the player choosing which skill to gain or boost.

Excellent idea! Wish I had thought of that a long time ago.

I'll try that after I kill off the guy with JOAT-4 (cursed Merchant Prince and my over benevolence!) I already have running amok in my current game. Maybe the next time he tries realigning the field coils in the jump drive after it takes damage he'll fumble into some other reality....

 

[rancke]

Subsequent rolls of JoaT are used to gain or boost other skills, with the player choosing which skill to gain or boost.

Good idea. No one likes to waste a skill roll. I'd say that in the spirit of the name, you can only gain <Skill>-1 in this manner, not improve any skill you already have.


Hans

 

[sabredog]

Maybe you could allow extra skill boosts on skills you already have by saying the PC had been taking extra courses, or gained under some other practical application that wasn't formal training.

Like he has Ship's Boat-1 already, but gains a couple more levels in it by exchanging them for JoaT because he had a buddy who worked for a line (or flew one of the cutters on the ship they served on) and the PC was able to get a lot of practical flight time when his buddy let him take over the controls.

Then he gained more practice in landings, docking, etc..

I've logged well over 100 hours in single engine underwing and overwing planes, yet never took a single lesson from anyone but the friends who owned them. Take-offs, landings, navigation,stalls, everything I'd formally learn for VFR flight anyway in a lot of different places. So wouldn't that at least count for Fixed-Wing AC -1? 2-3 if I already had gained it from formal training first?

 

[aramis]

I've logged well over 100 hours in single engine underwing and overwing planes, yet never took a single lesson from anyone but the friends who owned them. Take-offs, landings, navigation,stalls, everything I'd formally learn for VFR flight anyway in a lot of different places. So wouldn't that at least count for Fixed-Wing AC -1? 2-3 if I already had gained it from formal training first?

No, probably not 2-3. Level 1 is employable tradesman. It's the level of a Commercial Pilot cert. (Arguably, a private pilot should be level 1, bt the axiomatic definition of employability means commercial.)

 

[Jame]

Maybe the high energy weapons are too much overkill (explosive radius too big for enclosed spaces, too likely to burn through vital equipment...) and the VRF GG would be too unwieldy. And a VRF is a vehicle or limber mounted weapon.

Maybe the Marines might use these for landings, but was a Kinunir used for that? Or were the Marines on board more for ship security?

A TL-15 VRFGG? That shouldn't be unwieldy. And why would they be using those or the FGMPs aboard ship, anyway? They're support weapons, and that's why they'd have a stock of laser weapons in the locker.

This is my ship's locker: 12*FGMP-15, 20*TL-13 Gauss rifles, 3*TL-15 VRFGG, 10*TL-13 Laser Rifle, 5*TL-13 L. Carbine, 10*TL-13 Gauss Pistol.

 

[sabredog]

A TL-15 VRFGG? That shouldn't be unwieldy. And why would they be using those or the FGMPs aboard ship, anyway? They're support weapons, and that's why they'd have a stock of laser weapons in the locker.

This is my ship's locker: 12*FGMP-15, 20*TL-13 Gauss rifles, 3*TL-15 VRFGG, 10*TL-13 Laser Rifle, 5*TL-13 L. Carbine, 10*TL-13 Gauss Pistol.

Nobody said that they would use them on the ship - I pointed out to another poster that asked why the weapons assigned didn't include things like that.

And I dunno about you but the VRFGG is listed as a "crew-served support gun" so all that means at upper TL's is that that the thing might not get less bulky, but it might become more deadly. Hit more targets, fire a wider variety of rounds, overheat less often, whatever. Of course at TL-15 you also have crew-served RP Fusion Guns that are much more dangerous to your foe at greater ranges and with better penetration values (if using Striker, but even in CT they have deadly values even in just the burst radius) and can be used for point defense. More bang for the buck.

So my typical Marine locker (if they are to be used for landing ops and are not just shipboard security) always includes 2 of those beasties mounted on the IFVs, along with the requisite FGMP-14's, 15's, and so on. No VRFGG's except as coaxial or cupola mounted weapons on the IFV.

For shipboard security, Combat Armor and gauss rifles with RAM grenades are sufficient and safer in enclosed spaces and CQB. Laser rifles for support if anyone on the other side has any heavy armor the RAM's and GR's can't penetrate. Which depends on the combat system you use, too.

In CT the gauss rifle is king except where it's safe to use the P/FGMP. In Striker the gauss rifle isn't that good against BD or higher level Combat (the TL-13 laser rifles is great, though), but in either case the RAM grenade is just dandy for slagging any level of BD or Combat.

So maybe a RAM Auto-launcher would be a better shipboard support weapon so long as it wasn't used in places where delicate or dangerous things are located? Or at least a 12 - shot rotary drum RAM Launcher that would usable by a single trooper as a squad support weapon.

 

[Straybow]

4. A Sword will always cut thru armour made of the same material as the sword is made from ( basic physics and meteal lurgy)

I wanna see a demo of a steel sword cutting through steel battleship amor of the same composition heheheheh

I had the same reaction, for different reasons. Even a poleaxe doesn't cut thru plate armor, it makes nice dents that convey bone-breaking force to the wearer. Heavy piercing weapons can puncture good plate, but that isn't what you want to do since your weapon will probably be difficult to dislodge. Again, deforming the plate and conducting the force to the wearer is the goal.

Lance or pike receiving a charge is more likely to glance off and catch in a joint than fully penetrate good plate. Munitions plate worn by common footmen is a different matter. It was low quality steel and could be readily penetrated by them.

 

[Jame]

So my typical Marine locker (if they are to be used for landing ops and are not just shipboard security) always includes 2 of those beasties mounted on the IFVs, along with the requisite FGMP-14's, 15's, and so on. No VRFGG's except as coaxial or cupola mounted weapons on the IFV.

For shipboard security, Combat Armor and gauss rifles with RAM grenades are sufficient and safer in enclosed spaces and CQB. Laser rifles for support if anyone on the other side has any heavy armor the RAM's and GR's can't penetrate. Which depends on the combat system you use, too.

So it looks like you and I agree on this. (Now that you mention it I don't mind a VRFGG being mounted on an IFV - it'd be like a Browning .50 today, though I'd allow them as tripod, emplaced weapons.)

I should mention that I use basic MGT/CT bk 1 combat.

 

[JAFARR]

I read about half the posts, so I don't know if this specific was covered, but here goes.

It is possible to get basic training in any given weapon, method, what have you without aquiring proficiency in what you are learning about. I would suggest that it is this type of training that "all Imperial Marines" recieve in BD. That would be BD-0. In other words they know how to use it without penalty. For example, everyone in the USN is trained basic onboard ship fire fighting, but unless your battle station is part of a damage control party, you don't really get a lot of expertise in it. Not only did I spend about 3 GQ drills a week training at it, I also got sent to fire fighting school refresher training several time because my GQ station was on a damage control party. Even though I haven't seen an OBA in 30 years, I bet I could still use one today with about 5 minutes review time. When I went to boot camp we all got instructed in their use and for lots of Navy personal that was it. They never did anything else except sit thruogh a refresher video about them after that.

 

[Hyphen]

Excellent idea! Wish I had thought of that a long time ago.

I'll try that after I kill off the guy with JOAT-4 (cursed Merchant Prince and my over benevolence!) I already have running amok in my current game. Maybe the next time he tries realigning the field coils in the jump drive after it takes damage he'll fumble into some other reality....

I thought JoT could only be used in place of skills that did not require formal training? You could't use JoT & become a doctor, could you?

 

[Shadowfax]

Shadowfax,

Either late CT or MT. Hans will have the precise divergence. IIRC, it was done in a JTAS article presenting a TO&E for the Imperial Marines.

The All Marines Use Battledress idea was a deliberate retcon on GDW's part, Loren Wiseman (LKW) has said so many times. GT:GF repeated the same idea at LKW's direction, something which both LKW and Doug Berry, the book's author, have said many times.

Hans' "solution" to the problems created by the retcon is simple and neatly done. The JTAS article, plus subsequent articles and books, all deal with Imperial Marines, so Hans suggests that LBB:1 chargen produces both "small-m-marines" and Imperial Marines. He also has shifted Kininur and her "battledress-free" marines from the Imperial Navy to a navy in the Imperium; i.e. the Duchy of Regina Navy.


Regards,
Bill

Ok. Ummm, sorry but what is GT:GF? What is LBB? So, the "Small-m-marines" are Dutchy marines or marines that are not imperial marines right?

I think I follow you except for the achronyms.

 

[Shadowfax]

I prefer the EMP grenade.
Go in with advanced teams carrying fiber backup comms, TL 6 weapons and EMP grenades.

Toss one and fry all the enemy's electronics(Unlless they are fiber as well...LOL)

Marc

... and then you have a ship with no eletronics? Ugh.

 

[Shadowfax]

It was also a retcon that didn't get retained just a year or two later when MT was put together. And was not picked up for T4, either.

in fact, the only places all marines have BD skill are:
in GT (1/2 point)
in Loren's article
in MGT (level 0)
in TNE - which explicitly is the RC Marines, not the Imperial Marines.

And Mongoose has been clear that the MGT rules are not the OTU.

MT was kind of like a bad dream wasn't it?

 

[Shadowfax]

I think it was MT.

I have to confess to not liking MT much.

If you're playing CT, stick with CT sources for less headache...and "retconning" as Hans is doing/reporting..

Yes! = )

In CT, there are serious combat applications.

First, it's a tradition stretching back to the Second Imperium.

Second, remember that CT is a good-old-days, golden-era, space opera. So, Imperial Marines in Battledress, skirting across the outside of a pirate's hull using their magnetic boots and dicing up the enemy with their cutlasses is all part of the atmosphere.

Remember that CT is influenced by all sorts of golden era science fiction. I've never read anything personally, but then again, I haven't read a lot of the sci-fi that CT is based upon. If you check some of those old books, I'd bet money you'd find a scene where Maines use cutlasses or some other type of sword.

Yeah, well I will keep it IMTU, because it is canon and because I want to limit the damage to prize ships through small arms and heavy weapons. A ship is just not worth much if the interior and a lot of its "soft" systems (i.e. computer, avionics and jump drive coil) are shot up. Its bad enough if the port toillette has taken a hit from a LAG, GL, PGMP or FGMP.

So while I question it realistically with the exception of those occaisional close quarters combats that get all the attention and write ups, I realize that there are also fun reasons for keeping these weapons in the game. I also think it makes a big difference if you are running a pirate, merc or military campaign, like we often do or if you are just running a "civilian" campaign. Civilians are probably going to have less military hardware. So if it is just a regular Civilian adventure, there will be a shotgun, an auto pistol, maybe a rifle, a couple of snub or body pistols and a lot of knives, boarding axes and swords and maybe even a jump coil wrench or two (those damned things are heavy).

I'd ignore it if playing a CT game.

Best Advice To Give You, though, is this: Forget obscur rules like this, anyway. Don't be a slave to the rules. I think d20 and D&D have conditioned so many gamers to behave this way.

The spirit of CT is, "Figure out what works for you and yours, and go with it! Have fun!"

Yeah, I don't get hung about the rules much. I just like to bounce things around here and then I develop an opinion about how I want to run things IMTU. It is nice to stick to CT canon though whereever I can. It gives my players something to go on and eliminates silly contradictions that waste our time.

 

[Shadowfax]

In my campaigns I have no problems with giving ex-Marine characters Battledress skill. Having the skill to drive one and having a suit of it are two different things

Yeah, my guys never get BD unless they are Mercs and even then its seldomn. There are 1-2 players that make it their major goal in life to get a hold of a suit somehow. Its like an obsession with them. I let them get the skill and default it to Vacc Suit, but I hardly ever let them get the suits even in military campaigns.

 

[Shadowfax]

'Detailed' is not the term I would use for a set of generic rules that would make every single marine forces in Charted Space a carbon copy of all the others. In fact, the term I would use is 'not detailed'.


A1? That would be the vastly powerful 1200T cruiser, one of which withstood over four hours of steady attack from the barbarians before suffering screen faulure, right? Another one of which was donated by a benevolent Imperium to the Darrians (after having its weaponry reduced, of course -- can't let the secret of the missile rack into the hands of foreigners, not even allies); such a powerful ship would surely make a welcome addition to the Darrians' own forces. And the Vegans got one too! But the Imperium is rich, so no doubt it could afford it. After all, it built SIXTEEN of them! And the Regina subsector has FOUR of them? Fancy that! But then, Regina needs powerful defenses in place. After all, it is nearly four years out from the Imperial core.

No, we certainly wouldn't want to change or ignore any of the many fine facts established by The Kinunir. Every word is pure gold. Accept no substitute!


Words fail me.


Hans

As my grandmother used to say, "Now fight nice boys." ; - )

I try to stick to CT canon where I can and where it makes sense not, because I am a pedantic rules lawyer, but because I find it helps to give my guys something that they can go by.

Every version of traveller that has ever been made has had its errors or goofy ideas here and there. CT is definitely no exception. CT was also written with a different 1960s space opera kind of mind set, which I alternatingly find cool and kinda corny at times.

I try not to let it bother me and am grateful to Marc and all the others for creating such a cool game.

= )

 

[Shadowfax]

Hans - the problem is that the OTU of the early adventures is a vastly different universe to the OTU that became MT.

When A1-3 were written the tropes you quote were the ones in force in the OTU. Along comes HG and completely changes the OTU paradigm - it really is a waking up in the shower moment.

So yes - sixteen Kinunir class battlecruisers were a force to be reckoned with - pre HG.

A Kinunir translated to the Mayday rules is incredibly powerful in that rules system. A Kinunir under LBB2 ship combat is also a force to be ignored at your peril.

Along comes HG and the paradigm shifts as you say.

I agree with S4 - stick to CT basics.

The OTU suffers more than many rpg setting in that the designers didn't care what affect changing things like the ship paradigm etc would have on the setting - the setting was a sandbox for the rules and they didn't really hesitate to flatten the sand and build new castles.

. . . but I like HG even if I hardly ever design ships 100% according to the design tables and even if the combat system is cumbersome and needs to be programmed into a computer somewhere to make it useable.

 

[Shadowfax]

Really? OK, then tell me, people who are too physically challenged to pass a military physical (in Real Life, I mean), what would their physical stats be in CT terms? 222? 111? 000?
Hans

Yeah, I have always wondered about this. I don't see people like this getting into the military unless they do something like skip basics and AIT and go right for the officers corps through ROTC. Of course, CT leaves plenty of avenues open. There are only ten ranks and we do not really know much about the structure of military training in CT. I always liked Mercenary, HG and Scouts, because they gave a more detailed character roll-up.

As it is now IMTU. I have redone all of the character tables. There is a delux roll-up that takes more time, but adds lots of cool details and there is a streamlined roll-up that is pretty much like the basic tables in CT.

We decided that CT allowed people to become officers too easily, so we added a lot of enlisted ranks. At the same time we created a few OCS-like programs that allowed characters with higher ED, IN and SS scores to start as NCOs or Second Lieutenants and skip the enlisted ranks. The NCOs and Officers recieve different skills. NCOs get skills like Hvy Weapons, Tactics, Leader, Demolitions, Instruction etc. and the officers get skills like Tactics, Leader, Admin etc. Each Branch (Army, Marines, Navy) has several Military Occupational Specialties. For example . . .

Army has: Infantry, Jump Troops, Armored, Artillery, Special Forces and Service/Support.

Marines have: Infantry, Lift Infantry, Elites (these guys are used as shock troops or specially trained ship's troops for boarding parties and are like Special Forces), Armored, Artillery and Service/Support.

Navy has: Crew (standard ship's crew), Line (Like ship's crew, but with more fighting trim), Gunnery, Flight, Technical (engineering, comms, comp, and etc. specialists).

Mercs get: Infantry, Drop Infantry, Cavalry (armored), Artillery, Commandos (these are like a mix of Army Special Forces and Marine elites they have the option to take both recon or Zero-G skills, but because they get both they might do it less effectively than their army or marine counter parts depending a bit on the luck of the die and the choices they make) and of course Service/Support.

Each service Branch has an intial or more intial skills.

Each MOS has a different intial skill that the characters receive on their 1st term (Infantry gets rifle combat, Armored gets the choice of Vehicle or Artillery (gunner), Artillery gets Field Artillery or Fwd Obs, etc.).

Enlisted, NCO and Officer Characters each roll on different Personal Development tables (NCOS on the NCO table; Officers on the Command Table; Enlisted on the Army Life, Marine Life, etc. table).

Characters with higher ED attribute scores get to roll an extra skill.


Uh oh, maybe I should open another thread?

 

[Shadowfax]

Oh please!

How ridiculous is that!

I mean, where are you ever going to use a spade to bury your enemies in space?? Certainly not in the hydroponic garden!

Ever see silent running? ; - )

 

[Shadowfax]

pardon me for slipping in. But i just went through my book 1 again (the Kinunirs and this Exec are pre-book4 irc). Which skills do you think to be a must have for a captain? Ships that size do have pilots, navigators and engineers aboard. The captain is supervising them. Tactics maybe but you dont get tactics in the navy. Or leader but thats not in the navy either.

We changed the skills around a bit IMTU.

Tactics is splint into specializations Tactics & Strategy for ground combat and Ship Tactics and Fleet Strategy for naval actions. There are also equivalent wet-navy skills.