It was annoyingly cumbersome under Merchant Prince Adv. CGen. Mostly because it could wind up being stuck in rank 1 for an entire career.
Battle Dress skill and Marines
- Thread starter Shadowfax
- Start date
It was annoyingly cumbersome under Merchant Prince Adv. CGen. Mostly because it could wind up being stuck in rank 1 for an entire career.
When I ran a naval campaign, many years ago, I gave a promotion roll every year with a -4 to the roll if two out of these three criteria applied:
a) The character had been promoted less than four years ago.
b) The character had insufficient skills for the next rank.
c) The character wasn't of Imperial noble rank.
Hans
I allow the purchasing of commissions. Only in the Navy or Marines.
The downside to that is you also have to take a -2 DM to all survival rolls in the Marines if below staff rank (below O-7). But you also get an automatic +1 to rolls for decorations. Once you survive your first combat mission the negative survival DM drops to -1, second combat mission it goes away, but the decoration DM stays.
No extra DM's are provided for promotion - if you purchased your commission the only way to move up is to buy another one or the way everyone else does it.
I figure that service is less tolerant of dilettantes who want play soldier and have more money than leadership ability. But your connections get more pretty baubles to hang off your mess dress to impress your fellow nobles.
Since the Navy has a tradition of nobility inherent in it (even IMTU), the purchase of commissions is more accepted as "just how it's done" in order to get into the officer corps. Nobility plays its part in promotions and commands, but competence is more valued than your lineage...so while you can buy your commission to guarantee your entry as an officer you still start at the bottom and have to work your way up until influence can augment your earned success - not replace it.
Navy ships are too expensive to allow their loss as a result of Noble Darwinism. Noble Marine Captains and their platoons, on the other hand are considered a dime a dozen.
The downside to that is you also have to take a -2 DM to all survival rolls in the Marines if below staff rank (below O-7). But you also get an automatic +1 to rolls for decorations. Once you survive your first combat mission the negative survival DM drops to -1, second combat mission it goes away, but the decoration DM stays.
No extra DM's are provided for promotion - if you purchased your commission the only way to move up is to buy another one or the way everyone else does it.
I figure that service is less tolerant of dilettantes who want play soldier and have more money than leadership ability. But your connections get more pretty baubles to hang off your mess dress to impress your fellow nobles.
Since the Navy has a tradition of nobility inherent in it (even IMTU), the purchase of commissions is more accepted as "just how it's done" in order to get into the officer corps. Nobility plays its part in promotions and commands, but competence is more valued than your lineage...so while you can buy your commission to guarantee your entry as an officer you still start at the bottom and have to work your way up until influence can augment your earned success - not replace it.
Navy ships are too expensive to allow their loss as a result of Noble Darwinism. Noble Marine Captains and their platoons, on the other hand are considered a dime a dozen.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Speaking as a former Marine... a laser shot (or plasma shot) is a laser shot (or plasma shot).
My grandfather (mother's father) once mentioned that his Lt. in WW1 (US Army) decided to lead them into what they knew was an ambush in France in late 1918.
Funnily, he was the only casualty, and they couldn't recover his body due to the German fire.
My grandfather (mother's father) once mentioned that his Lt. in WW1 (US Army) decided to lead them into what they knew was an ambush in France in late 1918.
Funnily, he was the only casualty, and they couldn't recover his body due to the German fire.
Speaking as the grandnephew (maternal) of a Marine Captain (WW2, and with several uncles, 4 of my Mom's brothers, who fought as Marines in Vietnam - ok, that dates me!) I think that's a hilarious story! Do you remember where it happened, or the battle?
My Great Uncle (who didn't often talk about his days in the war, but when he did it was always very interesting and informative) once said, "If you are going to lead men in battle you'd better value their lives at least as much as your own, because they surely will. And, if you can't do that, well, you should at least remember that you'll be standing between the enemy's guns and those of your men."
He was a good guy. Probably the most positive person I've ever known.
Anyway, based on stories similar to yours and others I'd heard or read (especially from the history of the Victorian British military) I figured that it would add a little color to my game if I simulated what I call Noble Officer Darwinism. Some turn out to be Wellingtons, some turn out to be Cardigans. Unfortunately it's the guys in the line that pay the heavier price for the Cardigans so the higher survival rolls for purchased commissions helps weed out the bad ones early.
Unfortunately you still get the Cardigans who can afford to buy their very own regiment to play with and design pretty uniforms for, but that's just another reason why I make it harder to get into OCS and purchasing a commission so expensive; it means the NCO NPC's and PC's will have a lot more experience than otherwise because there's less upward mobility in my game.
So if your Light Grav Brigade is ordered to charge those meson guns at least you'll be lead by experienced NCO's and generally proven field officers because the incompetent ones don't last long.
My Great Uncle (who didn't often talk about his days in the war, but when he did it was always very interesting and informative) once said, "If you are going to lead men in battle you'd better value their lives at least as much as your own, because they surely will. And, if you can't do that, well, you should at least remember that you'll be standing between the enemy's guns and those of your men."
He was a good guy. Probably the most positive person I've ever known.
Anyway, based on stories similar to yours and others I'd heard or read (especially from the history of the Victorian British military) I figured that it would add a little color to my game if I simulated what I call Noble Officer Darwinism. Some turn out to be Wellingtons, some turn out to be Cardigans. Unfortunately it's the guys in the line that pay the heavier price for the Cardigans so the higher survival rolls for purchased commissions helps weed out the bad ones early.
Unfortunately you still get the Cardigans who can afford to buy their very own regiment to play with and design pretty uniforms for, but that's just another reason why I make it harder to get into OCS and purchasing a commission so expensive; it means the NCO NPC's and PC's will have a lot more experience than otherwise because there's less upward mobility in my game.
So if your Light Grav Brigade is ordered to charge those meson guns at least you'll be lead by experienced NCO's and generally proven field officers because the incompetent ones don't last long.
For me personally, I view the Imperium more in a Holy Roman Empire way (eg a multi-cultural empire). Thus the Nobility is always of the Officer Corps, you would not see an enlisted Noble (and every Noble would not only serve but would pay for the honor of doing so). Though it helps being from an Austrian family like I am, so I have a good feeling for how it works. It translates rather well in that the different cultures can be seen in the Solomani/Vilani dicotomy as well and different competing drives of these different cultures all welded together by the monarchy.
Here is a good site for it in it's final form as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which it actually called itself the kuk or Imperial and Royal.
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/
Here is a good site for it in it's final form as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which it actually called itself the kuk or Imperial and Royal.
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/
Since I don't have an official Imperium I did it differently. My Terran Empire began as a Confederation that gradually fell apart under outside stresses (size plus war both internally and externally).
The final collapse resulted in the Empire which has reinstated nobility and the noblesse oblige to go with it in order to develop a stronger cohesiveness among its worlds. There has been some social and political resistance to the idea of an aristocracy since the more egalitarian (at least in theory) Confederation had been around a lot longer than this new Empire has been, so there is still the possibility of advancement into this aristocracy on merit and through patronage.
One of those ways is through military service. Of course, on some worlds and in some families this reverse holds true: privileges have to be earned from the bottom up. So a Duke's son might not even be allowed to buy a commission - Dad might want his son to learn to rule by examples learned in person. Also a wealthy family without noble lineage or patronage to gain it might buy their way into into at least starting it for their descendants by purchasing a commission and hoping that distinction in military service might gain said patronage and honors. Not a lot of that going around right now, since a lot of these families missed out on the last war and the peace has been on for the last 30 years. But hope is in the offing since the Empire is starting to venture out to reclaim some of the old colony worlds. And the opposition is doing the same.
The final collapse resulted in the Empire which has reinstated nobility and the noblesse oblige to go with it in order to develop a stronger cohesiveness among its worlds. There has been some social and political resistance to the idea of an aristocracy since the more egalitarian (at least in theory) Confederation had been around a lot longer than this new Empire has been, so there is still the possibility of advancement into this aristocracy on merit and through patronage.
One of those ways is through military service. Of course, on some worlds and in some families this reverse holds true: privileges have to be earned from the bottom up. So a Duke's son might not even be allowed to buy a commission - Dad might want his son to learn to rule by examples learned in person. Also a wealthy family without noble lineage or patronage to gain it might buy their way into into at least starting it for their descendants by purchasing a commission and hoping that distinction in military service might gain said patronage and honors. Not a lot of that going around right now, since a lot of these families missed out on the last war and the peace has been on for the last 30 years. But hope is in the offing since the Empire is starting to venture out to reclaim some of the old colony worlds. And the opposition is doing the same.
Sounds interesting, I'm always up to hear good ideas.
For me the Imperium is just a backdrop for adventures, though I'm just making up a lot of this as I go along. For example here is a fresh Marine Lieutentant I just pchopped:
I call him Lieutenant Albert Kodolitz, most likely the son of a noble ready to take his place in an Imperial Regiment such as the 2359th Imperial Dragoons "Knight's Equinox":
Which are battle dress Marines, I usually say that Marines are the standing arm mostly as they travel between worlds, unlike planetary armies which are more like reserves. The different uniforms of the various planetary militaries works well, for many old turn of the 20th century forces in europe had regiment defined by their uniforms so with the Imperium, there is a sort of return to this way of doing things. To me the Imperium is rather stagnant and it is this class stratified, inner core that drives people out into the frontiers like the Spinward Marches looking for opportunity and a better life. Even the seconds sons of nobles would head away from the core, in hopes of carving out a better life or fiefdom or so, they may not make the best officers (and alot of officers are not nobles) but if nothing else they die bravely for the Imperium and make exquisite corpses, or maybe not, maybe just Lord Carddigans who get shot by their own troops.
I like the Solomani, now they have no nobility, and I usually have there be a tension between factions in the solomani sphere with the Condfederalists on one side vs a newer "Republican" faction which favors both irredentism of their lost worlds and a stronger central government.
Though the current adventure I'm making is called the Ice Queen and involves a group of adventurers resucuing a "Blue Darrian" Princess and escaping Sword Worlds and Zhodani forces in the Entrope worlds during the Fith Frontier War. Maybe a good chance to throw in a BD equiped character and show when BD is good and when it is bad. Cutlass skill might come in handy too after the ammo runs out.
For me the Imperium is just a backdrop for adventures, though I'm just making up a lot of this as I go along. For example here is a fresh Marine Lieutentant I just pchopped:
I call him Lieutenant Albert Kodolitz, most likely the son of a noble ready to take his place in an Imperial Regiment such as the 2359th Imperial Dragoons "Knight's Equinox":
Which are battle dress Marines, I usually say that Marines are the standing arm mostly as they travel between worlds, unlike planetary armies which are more like reserves. The different uniforms of the various planetary militaries works well, for many old turn of the 20th century forces in europe had regiment defined by their uniforms so with the Imperium, there is a sort of return to this way of doing things. To me the Imperium is rather stagnant and it is this class stratified, inner core that drives people out into the frontiers like the Spinward Marches looking for opportunity and a better life. Even the seconds sons of nobles would head away from the core, in hopes of carving out a better life or fiefdom or so, they may not make the best officers (and alot of officers are not nobles) but if nothing else they die bravely for the Imperium and make exquisite corpses, or maybe not, maybe just Lord Carddigans who get shot by their own troops.
I like the Solomani, now they have no nobility, and I usually have there be a tension between factions in the solomani sphere with the Condfederalists on one side vs a newer "Republican" faction which favors both irredentism of their lost worlds and a stronger central government.
Though the current adventure I'm making is called the Ice Queen and involves a group of adventurers resucuing a "Blue Darrian" Princess and escaping Sword Worlds and Zhodani forces in the Entrope worlds during the Fith Frontier War. Maybe a good chance to throw in a BD equiped character and show when BD is good and when it is bad. Cutlass skill might come in handy too after the ammo runs out.
Very nice! I have the reverse in that planetary armies are the standard military arm and the Marines act as cadres and support for those armies. A large reserve of regular marines (the Line Marines as opposed to Fleet Marines, who are assigned to various ships) act as the Imperial fist if required. So the local armies are equipped to the best standard they can afford, subsidized by the Empire, but the locals are required to muster their own.
So there has always been a lot of individuality to these armies in line with the "personality" of their world. Old coalitions, like the Friedland Coalition has always been known for having a powerful military to begin with (due to the richness of the cluster they colonized during the Second Great Trek) and this is also where the majority of the push for bringing back the old nobility is coming from. They have a lot of regiments that have been raised by the local families that had kept a lot of Old World ways and traditions dating way back. Some of the dragoons even still ride horses that are raised on the ranches.
The 1131st Colonial Lancers are an Imperial Household Guard unit from the Coalition that drills with horses, lances and sabres. They wouldn't look too out of place in Victorian Crimea or South Africa in their dress or mess uniforms. But they are equipped with TL-15 combat armor, gauss rifles, and "ride" into battle in light armored grav IFV's. So I guess we are thinking along similar lines.
As we are for the reasons why people are leaving the core worlds and heading to the frontiers right now. Some are heading inward to seek patronage and pageantry in the courts, and some are heading out to find fame and fortune. Since the Empire is competing with alien competition to reclaim the frontiers that were fought over (now its being done Cold War style...spies, trade, gunboat diplomacy) there is ample chance for winning a fortune and name for yourself in myriad ways. If that's not enough there is a huge rift with several unexplored subsectors beyond it for the truly adventurous. In fact several families are right not putting together the HIMS Challenger to attempt to explore that region, helped by various trading houses.
Most of the planetary armies are not BD equipped, nor are all of the Marine units - depends on what they do. For example the armored and arty units don't need full BD. In fact the tankers wouldn't fit in the vehicles if they wore it. So they get combat or lighter versions of BD (for the scouts if they are leg infantry instead of mounted). The Line Marines get BD and the Jump Troops get Assault Suits (heavier, more heavily armed BD). Fleet Marines wear combat since BD wouldn't be of much use on a ship and would take up too much room.
But all this has been in development and evolving over decades of play so its pretty complex now.
So there has always been a lot of individuality to these armies in line with the "personality" of their world. Old coalitions, like the Friedland Coalition has always been known for having a powerful military to begin with (due to the richness of the cluster they colonized during the Second Great Trek) and this is also where the majority of the push for bringing back the old nobility is coming from. They have a lot of regiments that have been raised by the local families that had kept a lot of Old World ways and traditions dating way back. Some of the dragoons even still ride horses that are raised on the ranches.
The 1131st Colonial Lancers are an Imperial Household Guard unit from the Coalition that drills with horses, lances and sabres. They wouldn't look too out of place in Victorian Crimea or South Africa in their dress or mess uniforms. But they are equipped with TL-15 combat armor, gauss rifles, and "ride" into battle in light armored grav IFV's. So I guess we are thinking along similar lines.
As we are for the reasons why people are leaving the core worlds and heading to the frontiers right now. Some are heading inward to seek patronage and pageantry in the courts, and some are heading out to find fame and fortune. Since the Empire is competing with alien competition to reclaim the frontiers that were fought over (now its being done Cold War style...spies, trade, gunboat diplomacy) there is ample chance for winning a fortune and name for yourself in myriad ways. If that's not enough there is a huge rift with several unexplored subsectors beyond it for the truly adventurous. In fact several families are right not putting together the HIMS Challenger to attempt to explore that region, helped by various trading houses.
Most of the planetary armies are not BD equipped, nor are all of the Marine units - depends on what they do. For example the armored and arty units don't need full BD. In fact the tankers wouldn't fit in the vehicles if they wore it. So they get combat or lighter versions of BD (for the scouts if they are leg infantry instead of mounted). The Line Marines get BD and the Jump Troops get Assault Suits (heavier, more heavily armed BD). Fleet Marines wear combat since BD wouldn't be of much use on a ship and would take up too much room.
But all this has been in development and evolving over decades of play so its pretty complex now.
WarriorKnight
SOC-12
He does have navigation its called JOAT-1.In CT JOAT covered any skill you didn't have.
That depends on what your reading of JOAT is: in the description of the skill itself it provides for Skill-0 ("but never Level-1") in any skill you don't have at the referee's discretion. But, later in Book one (pg 23) it also says all characters already have Skill-0 in any skill they don't have, again at the discretion of the referee.
So its up in the air for a lot of interpretation.
Personally, I ignore the second rule and give anyone with JOAT-x half the level of JOAT (otherwise it wastes skill slots which I don't think is fair to the player) as a skill modifier for any skill they don't have if I think the given situation in its totality would allow it.
So its up in the air for a lot of interpretation.
Personally, I ignore the second rule and give anyone with JOAT-x half the level of JOAT (otherwise it wastes skill slots which I don't think is fair to the player) as a skill modifier for any skill they don't have if I think the given situation in its totality would allow it.
Maybe the high energy weapons are too much overkill (explosive radius too big for enclosed spaces, too likely to burn through vital equipment...) and the VRF GG would be too unwieldy. And a VRF is a vehicle or limber mounted weapon.
Maybe the Marines might use these for landings, but was a Kinunir used for that? Or were the Marines on board more for ship security?
Maybe the Marines might use these for landings, but was a Kinunir used for that? Or were the Marines on board more for ship security?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Strictly CT, rushed, and from memory so take it with a grain of salt...
I quite agree it should be called Astrogation but the fact is (iirc) it DOES also apply to navigating on a planetary surface by using stars. I've argued how crazy that is before (short form "these are not the stars of your homeworld") but...
...eh, not zactly.
True to a degree and not a bad thing imo.
J-o-T generally allows more utility than the page 23 rule. Read them more closely and completely for the subtle differences. There's a lot of stuff a J-o-T will get away with that the rule on page 23 won't allow, or shouldn't anyway. Imo and interpretation of course
I've seen various house rules on J-o-T for skill level more than 1, this one included, and used most of them myself. They're all fraught with demons imo and too open to munchkin abuse. The original rules (CT LBB1-3) work the best imo, the later tweaks tend to mess the balance of it all, though iirc (and I could be thinking something else entirely) Mongoose did a better job than most with J-o-T, fwiw.
I quite agree it should be called Astrogation but the fact is (iirc) it DOES also apply to navigating on a planetary surface by using stars. I've argued how crazy that is before (short form "these are not the stars of your homeworld") but...
...eh, not zactly.
True to a degree and not a bad thing imo.
J-o-T generally allows more utility than the page 23 rule. Read them more closely and completely for the subtle differences. There's a lot of stuff a J-o-T will get away with that the rule on page 23 won't allow, or shouldn't anyway. Imo and interpretation of course
I've seen various house rules on J-o-T for skill level more than 1, this one included, and used most of them myself. They're all fraught with demons imo and too open to munchkin abuse. The original rules (CT LBB1-3) work the best imo, the later tweaks tend to mess the balance of it all, though iirc (and I could be thinking something else entirely) Mongoose did a better job than most with J-o-T, fwiw.
Well High-Guard gives Navy personnel handguns, SMGs and lasers as standard firarms. SMGs may well be there just for historical reasons, but it doesn't change the argument. There is the implication that high powered firearms are to be avoided around delicate hulls. The lasers are useful, I guess, so you can shoot through portholes without having to open them.
I would not be surprised if the fusion guns were kept in a special locker, cleaned and maintained by non-military staff, and handed to the marines when required with a large red piece of masking tape over the trigger guard saying "not for use in confined spaces" in clear white stencil lettering.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
I use JoaT in the "skill-0" manner... as I DON'T give everyone "skill-0 in everything".
Subsequent rolls of JoaT are used to gain or boost other skills, with the player choosing which skill to gain or boost.
Subsequent rolls of JoaT are used to gain or boost other skills, with the player choosing which skill to gain or boost.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Going OT here, but Re JoaT:
The original 1977 text suggested that all PCs have level 1/2 (later called level-0) in all weapons. JoaT extended that to all skills. You only got one JoaT skill level (no JoaT 2+) and subsequent acquisitions of the skill in chargen were lost IIRC.
The later revision stated that all PCs should have level-0 in a few other skills besides weapons (those listed on p23 of the revised edition) and again, JoaT extended this to all skills.
It is a common misconception that all PCs have level-0 in everything already. (I was guilty of it too, until recently re-reading the rules.)
Personally, I like the Mongoose idea that each point of JoaT removes one negative point from the 'unskilled' DM. However, I think that some skills are so esoteric that they should be excluded from JoaT (eg xeno medicine) and, conversely, perhaps the p23 list could be extended a little (eg computer).
Coming back to topic, I would allow someone with JoaT to don BD, gaining its protection and endurance waiver, but I wouldn't allow the wearer to use any of its advantages, such as strength and speed enhancement, recoil absorption, targeting electronics, etc. These 'finer points' of BD usage only come with extensive training. (Anyone trying to use the suit's strength, for example, is likely to destroy either the handled object or the suit servos, and running is a non-starter - you can just about move around without falling over). Without JoaT, you do a 'Ministry of Silly Walks' and fall on your butt.
Edit: I'd also throw in a few occasional 'fumbles' just to remind the user that he doesn't have expertise, eg you pick up the laser rifle - oops, you've broken it... You climb the ladder - oops, you've plunged your foot through and stripped several rungs off... :devil:
The original 1977 text suggested that all PCs have level 1/2 (later called level-0) in all weapons. JoaT extended that to all skills. You only got one JoaT skill level (no JoaT 2+) and subsequent acquisitions of the skill in chargen were lost IIRC.
The later revision stated that all PCs should have level-0 in a few other skills besides weapons (those listed on p23 of the revised edition) and again, JoaT extended this to all skills.
It is a common misconception that all PCs have level-0 in everything already. (I was guilty of it too, until recently re-reading the rules.)
Personally, I like the Mongoose idea that each point of JoaT removes one negative point from the 'unskilled' DM. However, I think that some skills are so esoteric that they should be excluded from JoaT (eg xeno medicine) and, conversely, perhaps the p23 list could be extended a little (eg computer).
Coming back to topic, I would allow someone with JoaT to don BD, gaining its protection and endurance waiver, but I wouldn't allow the wearer to use any of its advantages, such as strength and speed enhancement, recoil absorption, targeting electronics, etc. These 'finer points' of BD usage only come with extensive training. (Anyone trying to use the suit's strength, for example, is likely to destroy either the handled object or the suit servos, and running is a non-starter - you can just about move around without falling over). Without JoaT, you do a 'Ministry of Silly Walks' and fall on your butt.
Edit: I'd also throw in a few occasional 'fumbles' just to remind the user that he doesn't have expertise, eg you pick up the laser rifle - oops, you've broken it... You climb the ladder - oops, you've plunged your foot through and stripped several rungs off... :devil:
Last edited:
Xenomed, in CT, was just a -2 DM on medical skill. So it took your "No skill - no try", and made it no worse, and your JoT provided level 0 rolls at -2... so the only task shown with a roll in the TTB entry on med is revival of cryoberth passengers, a 5+, DM+1 if Med 2+, is 5+ for Med 0. Thawing your Newt buddie is thus 7+... And TTB 47 makes it abundently clear that it takes medical 1 to provide medical benefits to the wounded.
So not really an issue under CT.
So not really an issue under CT.
That is just the Marines on one of the Kinunir class BC's, the Luuru. I'd say it is becausre they aren't up to a higher level TOE, which is quite common with large militaries and limited budgets. Also acting as a patrol crusier, it's basically just a pickett and you are going to keep your real strength concentrated for action if say the Zho's cross the frontier. So these patrol ships won't be high on the list for new weapons that would be less that useful scattered about.
Just as I saw with the argument about why the Kinunir production was spread around to different yards, simply "pork"; that is that the contract couldn't be awarded to one single yard due to politics.
