General Battledress: Suits or Mecha?

[Badenov]

If vaguely human-shaped, 2.5 m^3 means over 3m tall and over a metre wide. That means it won't fit through a standard doorway unless crawling and twisting, and it certainly won't fit in standard buildings without crawling. That's definitely in the 'small armoured vehicle' range, and at that point it has to justify the use of legs over wheels or tracks, and the fairly inefficient vertical shape - it's a specialist vehicle, probably for mountainous terrain, and not a heavy infantry substitute.

My 2.5m^3 mini-mecha is 2.1m tall x 1.5m broad x 0.8m deep, which is stout and won't fit in any seat meant for a human, but can navigate standard human passageways. Narrower passageways would be a problem, obviously, but it's got enough armor and structure to take a hit or two from a FGMP. It masses over 1500 kg, so is not operable unpowered.

 

[Rupert]

At that weight its ability to fit into normal buildings is largely moot, as it'll damage or outright fall through the floors of most of them anyway.

I have TL9-11 heavy walkers that are ~2.5m tall and aren't wearable (so are mecha, not suits), but at higher TLs battledress is small enough and light enough to be used in buildings (as long as they're reasonably sturdy), can fit through normal spaceship hatches, though they still need large seats and spacious access - no loading the marines into cattle-class seating in their battledress.

 

[Carlobrand]

Mechs have a cool factor going for them, but in the Traveller setting they fall into an awkward size. The FGMP and rifle grenades set a practical floor for combat equipment within their firing range. Infantry survive them by use of cover, concealment, and numbers. Mechs aren't as good as line infantry at cover and concealment; they're walking targets. If you grow them up big enough to have decent armor and defenses against FGMPs and such, then they're basically light tanks. I don't think my light tanks need legs and, after spending that much, I want at least two people inside, better three, so one can concentrate on shooting while the other drives the thing and tries to keep them from getting shot.

 

[Rupert]

Mechs have a cool factor going for them, but in the Traveller setting they fall into an awkward size. The FGMP and rifle grenades set a practical floor for combat equipment within their firing range. Infantry survive them by use of cover, concealment, and numbers. Mechs aren't as good as line infantry at cover and concealment; they're walking targets. If you grow them up big enough to have decent armor and defenses against FGMPs and such, then they're basically light tanks. I don't think my light tanks need legs and, after spending that much, I want at least two people inside, better three, so one can concentrate on shooting while the other drives the thing and tries to keep them from getting shot.

And at that point you should probably but grav drives in the thing so it has mobility competitive with that of other combat vehicles of that tech level range.

 

[casquilho]

And at that point you should probably but grav drives in the thing so it has mobility competitive with that of other combat vehicles of that tech level range.

And if you add Grav, you really have less a light tank and more an attack copter without rotors. LOL

 

[mike wightman]

Enough that the only reason most people can wear BD is that CT has it that worn armour doesn't add to encumbrance. Interestingly, Vacc Suits do have encumbrance, so combat armour and battledress are pretty cool in that regard (though their descriptions lead me to believe that they do not come with air tanks by default, so those would add weight).

The vacc suit has the asterisk next to it to say it counts as clothing in TTB and ST.

 

[McPerth]

If vaguely human-shaped, 2.5 m^3 means over 3m tall and over a metre wide. That means it won't fit through a standard doorway unless crawling and twisting, and it certainly won't fit in standard buildings without crawling.

Standard starship ceilings are assumed to be about 2.4 meters, so if the BD is 3 metters high it will not fit in most starships, and so be useless for boarding troops (while most traveller references assume they are used in this role).

See also the BDs depicted in MT journals (are over man sized, not 3 metters tall... (#1 and #2, Image is from #1)

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Let the Flame War begin

 

[casquilho]

One of my favorite illustrations of the imperial marines was this one:

 

[McPerth]

Would you be kind enough as to tell us where the images are from?

 

[McPerth]

One of my favorite illustrations of the imperial marines was this one:

Nice one. See that the weapons the deffenders have are showing flames, so I guess they are Chemical Propelled, Do you think they are ACRs?

BTW, they are bullpup config...

 

[casquilho]

Would you be kind enough as to tell us where the images are from?

Sadly, I do not know myself. I first saw it on an internet search and loved it, so I downloaded it from there. :-(

Sorry.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I prefer BD to be considered suits of armour.

A bit bigger than a person, a person being ~80l in volume the BD suit is at most 250l.

The BD trooper steps into the BD, with arms and legs in the arms and legs of the suit, which responds via feedback. Starship Troopers, Forever War, Downbelow Station, Expanse. I consider Iron Man's suit as depicted in the MCU to be too small, but the BD should be no larger than a suit of deepsea diver armour.

Mecha I consider to be vehicles, with the driver being in a workstation.

Combat Armor and BattleDress are not the same thing and I just finished Downbelow Station and no one in that book has powered armor, jut Combat Armor. I mean hella great book as all their books in Alliance-Union-Compact space are but there’s never been a hint of powered armor.

And to me, BattleDress is always a suit. Mostly, if you wear it, as someone noted all your meat bits are under all the armor bits so hits hit you too. Mecha is larger two to more times a human and moved from a cockpit the it is mecha. Landmates out of Shirow’s Appleseed is in the weird spot due to how the arms and legs work. They’re small enough to almost be classed as a suit but sizable enough to bleed into mecha, which I could see them being classed as due to their method of control.

A shame the OP is upset, because it is an interesting topic. Once again, T5 rules because it has both regular BattleDress as a Suit but also features Mecha, or Oversized or Titan class BattleDress. Or it did in the drafts, would have to check current…

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

First off, how dare you not start at one of the most awesome openings ever in cinema?!

Can’t help it, my love of the CR-90 is just too great. And I love this scene because we see Stormtroopers being actually dangerous and effective, but that’s because they cheat. They use Banding! Notice the first guy takes the hit and then the rest slaughter. Yep, Stormtroopers are Black 1/1 Banding Soldiers. In Combat Armor.

 

[Condottiere]

Maybe their barrels are aligned.

 

[MThompson016]

The way I see it, it's based on how it's narratively described.

Suits: used in an infantry role, and normally dependent on the operator's movements.

Mecha: used in non-infantry role, and not dependent on the operator's movements.

Battle Dress is used to replace infantry, and directly depends on the operator's movements, therefore, it is a suit based on Official Traveller Universe information available.

For example, BattleTech has both the core BattleMechs, and various forms of powered Battle Armor. The Battle Armor is always considered as suit, and organizationally, always infantry. The Battle Armor is usually (with an exception) dependent on the operator's movement, and always operates in an infantry role. BattleMechs are not dependent on direct movement of the MechWarrior, instead using various input devices. They also operate in more of what would be considered armor or cavalry tactical roles. The chapter in Lost Destiny where Kai Allard-Liao is getting a crash course in battle armor use has the right ideas in my mind.

 

[Carlobrand]

Let the Flame War begin
View attachment 5299

This is showing up as Mars Attack by Peter Elson.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

IMTU Battle Dress has significant automated features, like threat avoidance and retreat movement if the operator is injured and so on, the system remain somewhere between the two. It would be more comparable to a Landmate from Appleseed. YMMV.

Mine too! Plus it has a 360° sensor package hooked into the Tailigunner software/implants that fires the laser point defense system that is also included. Also, hell yeah Appleseed!

I can see given the cost why people want battledress to be some kind of mecha, and in some versions apparently it is, but primarily what battledress is, is a mistake. Same level of protection as combat armor and a strength boost and recoil absorption feature you could accomplish with an exoskeleton frame - and if you made that a frame, you could take it off the wounded trooper and have some other combat-armored trooper step into it.

The price says it should be mecha, but the performance says it's just combat armor with a strength boost. For the price, I expect a lot more combat bang, and I expect correspondingly more armor protection. Instead I get a squad pack-mule/forklift with a light cannon, who is as vulnerable as every other member as his squad. Since the publication of Robots, there's nothing battledress can do that I can't accomplish at less cost with a donkey-sized robot walker with stout arms and a pintel-mounted weapon operated by a soldier standing or kneeling behind it - and the soldier would at least have partial cover.

Confused about your pricing idea, not sure why you think KCr 200 is mecha pricing when that to me is mere component pricing for a mecha.

Can you pilot a Starship while wearing Battledress?

If you can strap in, then its a SUIT.
If you need to gut the Cockpit just to fit where the seat was, then it is a MECH.

You can in my TUs whether 3I or my own Permatic Imperium setting, it’s basically a human sized form factor. So, yeah you can totes pilot a starship in it, so it remains a Suit.

If we look at the Battletech Universe, I'd draw a distinction between Elemental armor as Battle Dress and the Battlemech as a Mech. Looking at the Robotech Universe, does this mean that the Zentraidi Battle Armor are just battle dress for giants?

Agree with the first and as to the second; yes.

This is the Guges D from AppleseedView attachment 5273View attachment 5274

Landmates for the win! But honestly it seems almost more mecha by size and controls than a Suit.

Note in Appleseed there are the equivalent to Combat Armor and Battledress as well... Just Sayin...

Though buried in a notebook I have a TNE write-up of Tachikoma's as well.

Tachikomas! I would love to see thar write up, they’re so adorable.

One of my favorite illustrations of the imperial marines was this one:

View attachment 5300

Pretty much says it all. And yep, most def a Suit by this pic.

 

[mike wightman]

Combat Armor and BattleDress are not the same thing and I just finished Downbelow Station and no one in that book has powered armor, jut Combat Armor. I mean hella great book as all their books in Alliance-Union-Compact space are but there’s never been a hint of powered armor.

And to me, BattleDress is always a suit. Mostly, if you wear it, as someone noted all your meat bits are under all the armor bits so hits hit you too. Mecha is larger two to more times a human and moved from a cockpit the it is mecha. Landmates out of Shirow’s Appleseed is in the weird spot due to how the arms and legs work. They’re small enough to almost be classed as a suit but sizable enough to bleed into mecha, which I could see them being classed as due to their method of control.

A shame the OP is upset, because it is an interesting topic. Once again, T5 rules because it has both regular BattleDress as a Suit but also features Mecha, or Oversized or Titan class BattleDress. Or it did in the drafts, would have to check current…

You need to read more books in the series. The armoured suits they wear are better described in Rimrunners - they are powered armour.