M
Malenfant
Guest
The "Handwavium" is IIRC called "Trillium" in BSG? Or something like that - they've had a few episodes where they had to stock up on it somewhere.
Battlestar Galactica and Traveller
- Thread starter Finarvyn
- Start date
You stop playing Traveller and you start playing your homebrew.
Sorry to channel Bill Cameron there, but it's the truth.
The 20 dton minimum for a bridge only applies to starships, presumably to aid in astrogation calculations and command & control.
It has no effect on small boats. AFAIK in Traveller, a small boat bridge is 4 dtons. Well, it is in T20 and that's the rule set I'm referencing.
As the drives are all percentage of hull size presumably you could have:
TL-15 VIPER
Bridge 2%
M-5 14%
J-3 4%
PP-5 5%
J-fuel 30%
PP-fuel 5%
TOTAL 60%
So if we say a Viper is 20 tons that leaves 8 tons for the non-percentage bits.
3 tons gives you the computer-3 you need for the jump, one ton a hardpoint and 2 tons a half-stateroom. </font>[/QUOTE]Uh... a number of problems.
First, the Viper is a short ranged fighter, it is NOT jump-capable.
Second, it is depicted as having a cockpit so why (or where) would you put a stateroom?
Third, TL15? I think not. Giving nBSG a TL of 9 would be extraordinarily generous - given there's no gravitics technology, nor fusion, a TL of 8 would actually be more appropriate were it not for the requirement of FTL. The show is painfully low-tech - they don't even have low berths for christ's sake! (a necessity for long interplanetary voyages)
Even if you're not pure BSG you still dump the stateroom - it's a space superiority fighter, not a patrol boat. It shouldn't even have a long endurance on it's power plant fuel.
I would guess 20 dtons. IIRC a modern day fighter would displace around 25-30 dtons.
What's the point? If you change the rules so much that you're no longer playing Traveller, you're playing a homebrew, what's the point? See if the story - ragtag fleet of survivors of a massacre/cataclysm, being hunted by their enemies and trying to keep one step ahead of them - and adapt that to the Traveller setting. It's easily doable, because the story is an archetype. It's in the Bible as well as in BSG. (in fact, that right there should tell you something - the original creators read Exodus and adapting that story into a sci-fi setting)
So you're trying to change Traveller so you can have jump-capable small craft and fighters - so why not just play Star Wars RPG and call 'em X-wings (or TIE fighters if you prefer)? Because you're not playing BSG either - their fighters aren't jump-capable.
One of the things I actually like about Traveller is that it doesn't have the space fighter thing. Maybe you're not playing BSG, but why can't the same story be adapted to serve the Traveller setting? Why do you need a 20 dton jump fighter when a 100 dton Sulieman does the same thing, and allows the characters to have other adventures besides combat missions? (scouting for resources, water or a planet with a biosphere so the fleet can be fed, or jump into a system and see if it has a gas giant etc)
That's just my two cents (or Crimps).
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You stop playing Traveller and you start playing your homebrew.
Sorry to channel Bill Cameron there, but it's the truth.</font>[/QUOTE]Not that it can't be fun though (to play the devil's advocate vs stofsk channeling Bill
)There will have to be some other differences as well...
The 20 dton minimum for a bridge only applies to starships, presumably to aid in astrogation calculations and command & control.
It has no effect on small boats. AFAIK in Traveller, a small boat bridge is 4 dtons. Well, it is in T20 and that's the rule set I'm referencing.</font>[/QUOTE]Yep, T20 requires both a small craft bridge and computer. You could get away with the HG use of no bridge and a simple cockpit here, seats 1 per 0.5tons which requires a computer, which operates as one model less.
You'll have to change the nature of jump itself, from a week in jump space to much less. Can't recall how BSG handles it, hours at the most isn't it? That will work ok for jump capapable small craft. But it will seriously impact a lot more of the game as well. As noted it won't be Traveller, you'll have to make up and work out the ramifications of a lot of stuff, either on the fly as problems arise or ahead of time to avoid retconning in mid game.
You'll probably have to change the nature of fuel as well. No more easy dipping from a GG, lake or ice.
To get the kind of performance seen by the fighters and missiles I think you'll have to dispense with the 6G maximum drive too.
There are aspects of the technology that are decidedly beyond standard Traveller TLs (iirc: instantaneous comms, advanced AI, the power reactors, some of the weapons) and I'm not sure they don't actually have gravitic tech stofsk. What keeps everyone from floating around on Galactica's decks? How do the small craft manage VTOL? And who's to say what TL the FTL is in the BSG 'verse? No lowberths? Or have we just not seen them used yet? Probably in a medical capcity since the FTL doesn't seem to take long. The equivalent to "low passage" in BSG would be more like mass transit via train. Herd them into the cargo hold and away you go, let them sit there a few hours till you arrive.
Anyway, that'll be another total overhaul you need to do. Chuck the whole TL thing and go through piece by piece and say what exists and what doesn't.
I seem to recall working up a Traveller Viper ages ago (first BSG era) and had it pegged at 10ton or less. But I didn't make it jump capable, just a simple space fighter with a couple plasma guns I think.
As stofsk points out (or is he still channelling Bill
M
Malenfant
Guest
Are we certain that the Vipers in the new series can't jump? I know the Raptors definitely can, as can Cylon raiders, and they're the same size.
And to nitpick, IIRC the original BSG drew its inspirations from Mormon texts, which AFAIK aren't the bible. But hell, the story is pretty universal anyway.
And to nitpick, IIRC the original BSG drew its inspirations from Mormon texts, which AFAIK aren't the bible. But hell, the story is pretty universal anyway.
You stop playing Traveller and you start playing your homebrew.
Sorry to channel Bill Cameron there, but it's the truth.</font>[/QUOTE]Not that it can't be fun though (to play the devil's advocate vs stofsk channeling Bill
)There will have to be some other differences as well...</font>[/QUOTE]I'm sure I might have provoked Bill's ire by mentioning the dread T20.
It's instantaneous.
Since nBSG uses handwavium, this is actually problematic. A simple solution - and more 'hard' than anything - would be to do Traveller and have fusion reactors and hydrogen for fuel. The show might even depict a gas-and-go.
But instead, we get 'tylium' that ends up being unobtanium. And the creators think their show is realistic because it's not space opera.
I didn't know there was a 6G max in Traveller. The rules don't say they can't be scaled up, and frankly with magic thruster plates what isn't possible?
But with nBSG, they're trying to be 'realistic' - so 6G tops is in line with human tolerances. IIRC the limit is 6Gs for a trained human? Or a bit more than that? Certainly any more and you start causing serious damage.
That's really out of the FTL system, isn't it? Traveller doesn't have instantaneous comms because it's just not possible given the peculiarities of the jump system.
And actually, I'm not too sure they do have instant comms either.
This doesn't actually seem to be covered in the show.
Creating High AI (or even Low AI) did not seem like it was the intention of the original designers. It actually comes across as accidental to me.
However, this would be the exception rather than the rule.
I don't know how their reactors work, but just because they use unobtanium doesn't mean that their reactors are super advanced. There are at least, three or four classes of fusion tech in Traveller? TL9 fusion is different from TL13, which is differen to TL15 (which according to veltyen is the point where transmutation becomes available).
They use Tyllium but it is not ubiquitous. One wonders why fusion or even fission is beyond them. Fusion at least has the virtue of having a virtual limitless fuel supply.
You mean the shells that require chemical energy to be propelled? We have those today.
They don't even have lasers. True, in a realistic sense lasers have a number of hurdles (including lazing gas which limits their 'slap on an A2 and off you go' utility Traveller assumes).
They use nukes, but for some reason a Battlestar like Galactica only had less than half-a-dozen in the first season. Pegasus may have had more, but obviously not enough to save her in "Exodus part 2".
Armour seems to have incredible thermal absorbing properties as evidenced in "Exodus part 2" when Galactica jumped inside of an atmosphere. Of course, this ended up doing mission-kill damage to Galactica. So the armour is not Star Wars level advanced (neutronium bonded plates for the win), but to be frank few things approach SW level toughness.
Plus their missile technology in general just doesn't seem to be all that impressive. Frankly, in any realistic setting, you have to ask yourself why use manned fighters when a missile does the same job only better. If their missile technology were any good there wouldn't be a need for vipers.
Conceded. They'd need some kind of gravitics technology. However, it would definitely be on the lower-end of the scale. No floating cities or repulsors.
It's instantaneous, but it doesn't appear to have a long range. If it had a long range, the Cylons really shouldn't be a threat because you can keep on jumping and putting dozens of parsecs between you and them. However, if you can't jump that far, and if the jumps are instantaneous to the point where a small Cylon Raider can make dozens of jumps in succession, and they have thousands of them, it's really not a big advantage.
Well, that's precisely why I said they don't have them - because we haven't seen them. If they're shown in the future then I'll update my opinion, however there have been many occasions where having low berths would be absolutely essential to the fleet. It saves space and stretches out your available supplies. But as the fleet is depicted as being overcrowded with dwindling supplies, it is not an option that is even considered.
Note that I don't agree that low berth is a risk as Traveller seems to suggest. Even there, T20 gives some bullshit DC of 5 or less to survive low berth. As far as the rules go you can Take 10 and be safe. What that means in terms of reality is that there is some small risk but nothing to be alarmed at. Probably riskier to have minor surgery (and going by the DC, this is backed up by T20 at least).
Again, we don't see them. So we can't assume they have them.
Gravitics, yes. We see them stand upright when in space. So they have to have some rudimentary form of gravitics. But an air/raft is beyond them. So are grav cities.
Aside from the spaceships and low form of gravitics, and the FTL, and the walking robots, there isn't anything that puts the Colonials beyond the 21st century.
This is actually a conscious decision of the producers, as retarded as it is to me. They didn't want rayguns or shields or any thing high tech, so instead everything looks rustic, which ends up making the show look shit at times. Their logic is breathtakingly stupid - when they show walking robots but DON'T want to show flying cars because it'll look too 'unreal' to the audience, something's messed up in their heads.
And I say this as a fan of the show. Seriously, the more I read about the behind the scenes decisions involved the more I want to tear my hair out. They're not employing cogent reasons for the methods they're employing, and it comes across as an excuse.
Take their cigarettes in the show. Ostensibly, it's because the creators don't wanna be politically correct - that's fine, because its a reality that people will use drugs to increase their pleasure. But EVERYBODY ⌧ing smokes! Where's that one asshole who says "⌧ing take it outside you jerks." Except from what I understand, that 'one asshole' would actually be the majority.
But Ron Moore smokes, so it's obviously a political decision. See what I mean? "We can't show outlandish tech like flying cars or low berths, but a walking robot is fine. Also, no lasers or even rail guns - everybody uses chemically propelled bullets. And no nukes - we use unobtanium for our energy needs in the future!"
I wouldn't be this critical if the show's creators weren't so pretentious. It sounds like I'm being an asshole, but seriously a year ago I thought this show was the greatest thing since sex on toast, but it's growing more and more pretentious in my mind. At least Trek and Wars doesn't pretend to be anything other than a ripping good yarn - there's a heavy 'deep and meaningful' vibe off of nBSG that's slowly suffocating the show.
Rant mode: off. (I didn't even intend to switch it on, but sometimes it has a habit of doing that)
I did one just now using T20 and making it 20 dtons. There was an interesting tidbit in the THB that puts a conversion rate for dtons to mtons, basically multiply a single dton by 1.35 and you get the mass. I don't know how accurate that is, but meh. What can you do?
Since most modern day fighters are within, what, 15-35 tons in terms of mass, depending on their load out (obviously a warplane will mass less if it's not armed), I decided to use 20 dtons as a nice safe - and round - number.
But 10 dtons? That's just crazy.
The Power of Bill compells me!As stofsk points out (or is he still channelling BillI think Bill's spirit exorcised me along the way, I don't seem to be playing devil's advocate very well anymore)
word
Quite certain.
There have been many scenarios where a FTL capable Viper would have been extremely strategically and tactically useful, but they had to resort to Raptors instead (which are kind of equivalent to Traveller's launches).
The only other craft we see capable of independent jumps was the Blackbird (the stealthship seen in the "Resurrection Ship" and its precursor episodes in the middle of season two... and she's space dust because Apollo can't look where he's flying)
Yes, but that's like saying "Can two aircraft that share superficial similarities like similar masses share the exact same traits?" Can a supersonic aircraft land vertically like a S/VTOL aircraft can, when they are of similar size? And vice versa?
Of course not. The very notion is absurd.
Furthermore, the Cylon Raider isn't very good. We always see Vipers wtfpwn them in combat. It might be because the Raiders actually have an FTL drive, and it affects combat performance. But it grants versatility.
(Though that's like saying the Harrier is versatile, even though it's a lightweight as far as combat aircraft go)
You call that a nitpick.
Ok, oBSG was inspired by Mormonism - I actually knew that, but it's easy to see the parallels to Exodus without seeing - or knowing - the Mormon connection.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Yes, but that's like saying "Can two aircraft that share superficial similarities like similar masses share the exact same traits?" Can a supersonic aircraft land vertically like a S/VTOL aircraft can, when they are of similar size? And vice versa?
Of course not. The very notion is absurd.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, they share similar roles too. Raiders are small fighters, so are Vipers. Raiders can jump, it's not a stretch to believe that Vipers could. This isn't comparing Concorde to an F-15 fighter.
We know the Raiders have longer jump range than Vipers and Raptors do. And we know raiders can 'level up' too, like Scar (though his ilk are never mentioned again, it seems). To be honest, there's not been an awful lot of viper-raider combat in the series.
Yes, but that's like saying "Can two aircraft that share superficial similarities like similar masses share the exact same traits?" Can a supersonic aircraft land vertically like a S/VTOL aircraft can, when they are of similar size? And vice versa?
Of course not. The very notion is absurd.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, they share similar roles too. Raiders are small fighters, so are Vipers. Raiders can jump, it's not a stretch to believe that Vipers could. This isn't comparing Concorde to an F-15 fighter. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, the inclusion of a jump drive would make the raider a different role to a Viper. That's why I was trying for the analogy of the Harrier and it's VTOL capability, and comparing that to a more conventional fighter. The more conventional fighter will tear it to shreds, but the Harrier can land on short runways or no runways at all. Does this utiliy make it exceed a more conventional aircraft in combat capaibility? ... no.
So in a similar way, we can look at the Raider and ask if it's FTL capability useful for combat - and we see in the show that it's not, tactically useful (no jumping away and back behind the Viper pilot tactic, which I'm thankful for).
The jump drive being included probably takes up mass that might have been spent on improving its manoevrability and combat performance. But the inclusion of an FTL drive allows it to dual role as a fighter and scout, where it performs both adequately but doesn't match a dedicated performance vehicle. Raptors seem better in terms of scouting in every way except jump range (which the Cylons have an advantage in), while Vipers routinely go against greater numbers and with nuggets (rookie pilots) and still come up on top.
We know the Raiders have longer jump range than Vipers and Raptors do.[/qb][/quote]
Yes, but when did we see Vipers use FTL? I have the entire show on DVD and I can't remember the episode this was revealed.
Not to be an asshole, but like I said to Far-trader, we don't see it... so we can't assume it.
You noticed that too, huh.
Yeah we don't have enough Viper-raider combat, but we do have a lot of Starbuck-Lee-Dee-Anders love... quadrangle bullshit. It's like we're watching Days of our Cylon. Is this a scifi show with killer robots and spaceships, or is it daytime soap?
M
Malenfant
Guest
The "love quadrangle" isn't that big a part of the show, though it has been dominating the human side for the past few episodes. But then we had a lot about Tigh earlier on too. There's a lot about the Roslyn-Adama relationship too. And Helo and Sharon/Athena. And all the stuff on New Caprica. There's all sorts of human-interaction stuff going on there, and it's good drama. Personally I'm more interested in the Baltar-Skinjobs-Earth stuff, since that's what's actually going on in the background, but I know the human angle is necessary to ground the series to something familar, not to mention give it some sense of ordinary drama.
But nBSG was never just about "killer robots and spaceships". True, they're a big part of it, but the series has a depth that no other series before it has ever had IMO. It's about thinking about what's going on, about putting all the clues together to figure out where this is all going. And I'm growing more and more convinced that there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye (if the skinjobs are evolved cylons then I'll eat my shorts. They're advanced biological machines, sure, but I'm pretty darn convinced that they aren't cylon).
I like that there isn't endless fighter combat in the show. It got kinda tired in the old series too, every ep having a big space fight, oh look there's a viper flying through a cylon explosion, woohoo... in nBSG the space battles are epic, capital-ship style, slogging it out with missiles and stuff. Plus, the time for that has passed - the skinjobs aren't out to wipe out humanity anymore, they're out to find the same thing that the humans are looking for. And right now the skinjobs have their own problems too.
But nBSG was never just about "killer robots and spaceships". True, they're a big part of it, but the series has a depth that no other series before it has ever had IMO. It's about thinking about what's going on, about putting all the clues together to figure out where this is all going. And I'm growing more and more convinced that there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye (if the skinjobs are evolved cylons then I'll eat my shorts. They're advanced biological machines, sure, but I'm pretty darn convinced that they aren't cylon).
I like that there isn't endless fighter combat in the show. It got kinda tired in the old series too, every ep having a big space fight, oh look there's a viper flying through a cylon explosion, woohoo... in nBSG the space battles are epic, capital-ship style, slogging it out with missiles and stuff. Plus, the time for that has passed - the skinjobs aren't out to wipe out humanity anymore, they're out to find the same thing that the humans are looking for. And right now the skinjobs have their own problems too.
It was getting old real fast, and it wasn't bringing anything to the table in terms of drama. It struck me as terrible writing at home in a soapie than a supposed 'serious' scifi 'drama'.
The peak (or should I say the trough?) of it was when Kara said "lol I will cheat on him but I won't divorce him" as though it made sense. Sorry, but there's no way a character can say that and call it drama with a straight face. I'm supposed to care about a character in a drama, not roll my eyes in complete and utter disgust at their rank hypocrisy.
The other thing is I had sincerely hoped they wouldn't go for the trite cliche of the two comrades in arms who happened to be of different genders taking a fancy to each other. It strikes me as wrong, given that Starbuck was originally a man to begin with and it seems was only changed to a woman so they could do this soap opera stuff.
Of course this is only one aspect of the show. I like other aspects, like Baltar, Roslin and Adama. Those three steal the show like a coked up junkie mugger stealing the purse off a grandma.
Some days I think they're making it up as they go along.
It would be epic if they had more than one Battlestar. They had Pegasus for a time, then lost her in the most contrived manner imaginable.
"LOL we have to split the fleet up so that Pegasus can protect the rest of the fleet, but it doesn't matter because we'll have Lee change his mind anyway and return at the last minute and save Galactica, like in every single cliche about writing battles. Of course, if both Battlestars had gone instead we wouldn't have lost either one.
Don't forget to LOL."
The bitch of it is, Pegasus' death was really well done, but everytime I look at it I see it as a waste. Plus, I loved Pegasus' ship model than Galactica's.
Unless they want to find earth and wipe out the humans there?
M
Malenfant
Guest
They're really not making it up as they go along - the clues have been piling up since Kobol at least. I think the Skinjobs are at least as old as the humans are, they just found the fleeing cylons and took control of them and used them for their own purposes. There's definitely a link between the Skinjobs and the humans' gods (maybe they were even created by the gods).
As for Earth, I'm curious about that, particularly since the skinjobs could go settle anywhere else in the universe, but still want to choose Earth as their new home. The weird thing is that the humans have a map to earth in their scriptures... but the only way they'd have that is if someone had returned from there to tell people how to get there.
I have no complaints about the loss of Pegasus, or the human element. People are fscked up, they do hypocritical things especially when it comes to love and lust - makes perfect sense to me
.
As for Earth, I'm curious about that, particularly since the skinjobs could go settle anywhere else in the universe, but still want to choose Earth as their new home. The weird thing is that the humans have a map to earth in their scriptures... but the only way they'd have that is if someone had returned from there to tell people how to get there.
I have no complaints about the loss of Pegasus, or the human element. People are fscked up, they do hypocritical things especially when it comes to love and lust - makes perfect sense to me
It may not be perfect, but it's the best SF to hit our TV screens for such a long time and to break the 'Trek mould' which so many other SF TV series have followed. Pity about 'Firefly' which was the other one...I'd have loved to have seen that run and run.
I love nBSG. I love the fact that every character has flaws. It has such a huge cast in series terms, but takes the time to tell you about them all and I find that I do care about them all.
I don't want to analyse the science behind it too much and beat them up for not being consistent if the story demands that they bend the rules a little.
Ravs
I love nBSG. I love the fact that every character has flaws. It has such a huge cast in series terms, but takes the time to tell you about them all and I find that I do care about them all.
I don't want to analyse the science behind it too much and beat them up for not being consistent if the story demands that they bend the rules a little.
Ravs
I'm still not convinced the skinjobs (lovely BR ref Mal) aren't just clones with some sort of spinal implant to ensure loyalty. Sure they are slightly different genetically but it can't be much if there are viable offspring. Maybe they are what Cylons would have their masters be instead of sniveling homo sapiens; a race of biological beings that can earn dominance versus inherit it. It may explain the strains of kinship to humanity that some of the buggy models repeatedly show.
It was sad to see the Pegasus go, but she had to. I don't believe there are limitless numbers of basestars, so attrition on both sides is realistic. I do agree that her end was rather contribed but what better to show Lee's loyalty to his father despite orders to the contrary.
I do feel the Apollo-Starbuck jump-the-shark romance would have been better left on the cutting room floor. I do like how Tyrol's story was used to snap Lee back to his senses and remind him what vows are all about.
It was sad to see the Pegasus go, but she had to. I don't believe there are limitless numbers of basestars, so attrition on both sides is realistic. I do agree that her end was rather contribed but what better to show Lee's loyalty to his father despite orders to the contrary.
I do feel the Apollo-Starbuck jump-the-shark romance would have been better left on the cutting room floor. I do like how Tyrol's story was used to snap Lee back to his senses and remind him what vows are all about.
I'll throw my vote in with you on that cutting room floor comment Targas.
Its true if Adama would have committed more resources they'd have lost no battlestars. It was sad to see the Beast destroyed. disappointing that they haven't found any other military vessels. I was hoping we'd see something other than a battlestars.
I thought Babylon moved us away from the Trek SciFi problem.
Its true if Adama would have committed more resources they'd have lost no battlestars. It was sad to see the Beast destroyed. disappointing that they haven't found any other military vessels. I was hoping we'd see something other than a battlestars.
I thought Babylon moved us away from the Trek SciFi problem.
M
Malenfant
Guest
Nothing about the skinjobs makes any sense to me if you think they're actually Cylons. The cylons after all were built by humans, and then beaten by humans - why would they go away and hide and then come back with their own human clones telling them what to do?
The other thing is that we haven't seen a single intelligent "toaster" cylon. They're good combat robots sure, but actual intelligence? None of them have talked, as far as I can see they're entirely robotic (no organic components, unlike the Raider and the Basestar). The organic parts look to me like they're foreign to the Toasters though.
My theory is that the skinjobs are other creations of the human gods, if not the gods themselves. They were once something else, but became "machines" at some point (and AFAICT they're mostly biological, just with some implants that allow them to access computers). They know way too much about human mythology to have just been cylons once, there's too much similarity in human symbolism, and also since when does a race of robots created by humans have "ancient texts" of their own?
I'm sure there's a common origin shared between the skinjobs and the humans, and that they just found the cylons that were driven out of human space and adopted them as tools of their own.
The more I see and learn about the skinjobs, the less I think they're cylon and the more I think they're at least as old as humanity. My friends that are also into nBSG thought I was crazy when I first suggested this (the idea first hit me while they were on Kobol), but now they're starting to have doubts .
One more thing, while the skinjobs have referred to themselves as machines, the only time they ever called themselves cylons that I recall was in front of humans. Maybe they're keeping up a ruse here so as not to give the humans reason to suspect their true origins...
The other thing is that we haven't seen a single intelligent "toaster" cylon. They're good combat robots sure, but actual intelligence? None of them have talked, as far as I can see they're entirely robotic (no organic components, unlike the Raider and the Basestar). The organic parts look to me like they're foreign to the Toasters though.
My theory is that the skinjobs are other creations of the human gods, if not the gods themselves. They were once something else, but became "machines" at some point (and AFAICT they're mostly biological, just with some implants that allow them to access computers). They know way too much about human mythology to have just been cylons once, there's too much similarity in human symbolism, and also since when does a race of robots created by humans have "ancient texts" of their own?
I'm sure there's a common origin shared between the skinjobs and the humans, and that they just found the cylons that were driven out of human space and adopted them as tools of their own.
The more I see and learn about the skinjobs, the less I think they're cylon and the more I think they're at least as old as humanity. My friends that are also into nBSG thought I was crazy when I first suggested this (the idea first hit me while they were on Kobol), but now they're starting to have doubts
. One more thing, while the skinjobs have referred to themselves as machines, the only time they ever called themselves cylons that I recall was in front of humans. Maybe they're keeping up a ruse here so as not to give the humans reason to suspect their true origins...
M
Malenfant
Guest
Hm... you might be right there. But that said... wasn't Anders in the car park too?? I'll have to check again somehow (waiting for the DVDs to come down in price, grumble)
Anders was in the parking garage, yes. I just watched that episode the other night.
"Lucy" refers to her and Caprica as cylon sitting on the part bench IIRC. I don't believe it took place in the parking garage in front of Anders.
The question is, do models 6-12 know who/what they are if you follow the "human offshoot" theory. Maybe 1-5 were/are human and created the rest? Or perhaps 1-5 are clones of the humans that created the original cylons and they created 6-12?
Makes my head hurt. LOL
"Lucy" refers to her and Caprica as cylon sitting on the part bench IIRC. I don't believe it took place in the parking garage in front of Anders.
The question is, do models 6-12 know who/what they are if you follow the "human offshoot" theory. Maybe 1-5 were/are human and created the rest? Or perhaps 1-5 are clones of the humans that created the original cylons and they created 6-12?
Makes my head hurt. LOL
M
Malenfant
Guest
I dunno... the only one who knows anything about 1-5 is currently offline
