Battlestar Galactica and Traveller

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I have no complaints about the loss of Pegasus, or the human element.

But I loved Pegasus. She was so much nicer looking than Galactica.

Originally posted by ravs:
It may not be perfect, but it's the best SF to hit our TV screens for such a long time and to break the 'Trek mould' which so many other SF TV series have followed. Pity about 'Firefly' which was the other one...I'd have loved to have seen that run and run.

I don't think it's really broken the Trek mould entirely. Several episodes have a distinct TNG-feel to them, as opposed to a TOS-feel. The episode with the Cylon virus, for example, is a virtual ripoff of the TNG episode 'I, Borg'. Just like in that episode, the writers chickened out by having Helo essentially commit treason and get away with it. (the worst part is, though, also like in the TNG episode the Colonials blindly assumed their weapon would work totally. Neither episode thought to ask "Hey, what if this thing only pisses them off rather than wipes them out?" or "How do we know we can even use this thing to the fullest extent? Shouldn't we test it?")

Other than that, they try a lot harder to be militaristic in comparison to Trek, but Trek was always a show about exploration.

Completely agreed with you on Firefly. Poor show never had a chance.

 

[ravells]

There was also the episode in which the Engineer who becomes the Commander of the Pegasus (now there's a job where you don't need to worry about the pension arrangements) has a stand up verbal fight with Captain Odama on the bridge about jumping to save the raptors in direct contradiction to Admiral Odama's orders. Odama is quoting military regulations and all the crew are watching in stunned disbelief. The marine has to make a call as to whom to arrest - Crimson Tide, anyone?

Sure there are always going to be tropes in SF when the setting is a bunch of people on a ship - the setting itself restricts the options. So to some extent you are always going see something of a Trek parallel. :Edit: What I think is quite cool in nBSG is that rather than trying to put a spin on the trope, the writers will give a nod to the source. E.g. the firefly ship, calling the cylons 'skinjobs' and the Crimson Tide moment. There must be lots of other references too.

Sure, they are not going to test a new idea to see if it works before they use it - where would the dramatic tension be in that?

At the end of the day it is fiction, and fiction relies on devices to excite our interest, which sometimes means taking a left turn off the path of common sense. It's the extent to which the show deviates from the path which determines its credibility and I guess we all have our own standards. I do think in BSG they have it about right (for me).

Ravs

 

[jfetters]

Great comments, all, some of which I agree with and some not.

I have to say that I do enjoy all of the character relationships on the show (it is what balances it out, after all). My wife will even watch it with me because of the relationships, although Starbuck annoys her greatly (rumor has it, though, that won't be the case for long...).

 

[Space Cadet]

Too much fighter combat strains credulality. Does it make sense for the same characters to slog it out with Cylon raiders week after week? They punch their time clocks, put on their suits and helmets and kick some cylon ass. After a time it becomes like a video game. The cylon Raiders become incredibly bad as Starbuck flies circles around them and blows them up one dozen at a time. The Cylons stop seeming so dangerous after a while and start appearing utterly incompetant. After a while you start wondering why the Cylons don't begin to emply skinjobs flying human vipers, since they are much superior to the raiders. That is probably why there is not too much fighter combat.

 

[Pickles]

Originally posted by Savage:
Disappointing that they haven't found any other military vessels. I was hoping we'd see something other than a battlestars.

Actually, I'd like to see more of the civilian fleet. It makes sense that, this far out from the 12 colonies, there would be no further survivors, but there are a whole gaggle of ships which have hardly been touched on. I love the Colonial I, by the way. She looks very Carlos Ezquerra (2000AD / Strontium Dog reference).

Although the term 'skinjob' is clearly a homage to Bladerunner, they are actually referred to as such in BSG, so I assume Mal was using that reference (not that you could ever have too many Bladerunner references, being the greates movie ever made). As for sparsity of space combat, well, the RW reason is no doubt lack of budget.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Space Cadet:
Too much fighter combat strains credulality. Does it make sense for the same characters to slog it out with Cylon raiders week after week?

Yes, it does. That is what the premise of the opening episode "33" was about: constant Cylon attacks every 33 minutes.

The Cylons should be hounding the fleet like that.

They punch their time clocks, put on their suits and helmets and kick some cylon ass. After a time it becomes like a video game. The cylon Raiders become incredibly bad as Starbuck flies circles around them and blows them up one dozen at a time.

I don't think so. Episodes like "Scar" are really well done in the sense of danger that a good Cylon ace can deliver.

The Cylons stop seeming so dangerous after a while and start appearing utterly incompetant.

Actually, I've already started regarding the Cylons as incompetent. Not because their raiders suck (they do), but because the writers decided to give us an inside look at a Cylon basestar this season. A lot of the mystery surrounding the Cylons has been taken away. On one hand I like the inside look, but on the other it's obvious the Cylon leadership is broken. They're just a bunch of fools.

This is a long fall from season one, which had a Number Six waiting at the museum for Starbuck, calling her by name. That was incredible, because when I saw that I thought "Holy shit, there's no way Boomer could know that she was gonna go back to Caprica, so how did the Cylons know she was coming?"

Fast forward to season three, and it's like the Cylons have their head stuck up their ass.

That is probably why there is not too much fighter combat.

Well, I would say it's the budget more than anything. The problem is that they have 20 episode seasons, for the second and third seasons, and this means the budget they have must be spread around over more episodes. That means less action episodes that forward the plot and have battle scenes in it, and more episodes about the "Will they, won't they" soap opera between Starbuck and Apollo. I watch the show because I'm interested in how humanity survives this catastrophe, how and when they find earth, how they will deal with the Cylon menace (bit hard to do that now thanks to that idiot, Helo).

 

[Malenfant]

Again, it looks like you're completely missing the point of this series, stofsk.

This isn't a one dimensional show where the cylons keep chasing the humans - that was the old BSG. This new version actually has an ongoing plot, antagonists and protagonists that change and evolve over time (as they should), and proper human drama. If that's not what you're after then of course you're going to end up frustrated at the show and not enjoying it. The cylon/skinjob goals have changed - they're still on the humans' tails, but it's become a race to Earth now, not a mission of extermination (though it's unclear whether the skinjobs want to wipe out everything on Earth when they get there. If Earth is even colonised at all).

A lot of the mystery about the cylons is still there - we still don't know what the skinjobs really are, who made them, where they came from, what they're after, why they want to head for Earth when they have the rest of the universe to find a new home in, who the Final Five are, why they know so much about human mythology, why they have "ancient texts"... You claim that they've taken away a lot of the mystery of the cylons now, but it sounds to me like you've somewhat overlooked most of that mystery in the first place.


Just on an unrelated note, does anyone else find it odd that the humans have a routemap to Earth in the form of one of their scriptures? Wouldn't that mean that someone must have gone to Earth and then come back with the directions to leave behind for them to follow?

 

[Pickles]

I also find it a bit odd that anyone would travel the galaxy leaving great "We Went This Way" signs all over the place. Maybe I'm just paranoid.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
Again, it looks like you're completely missing the point of this series, stofsk.

This isn't a one dimensional show where the cylons keep chasing the humans

The ongoing plot, as you call it, is subject to stupidities relating to the soap opera. The soap opera BS has only become a major issue for me this season, the previous two seasons and the miniseries had drama but the soapie elements weren't apparent or underscored back then. And drama =! soap opera. I have no problem sitting down to watch a Shakespeare or Sophocles drama, but that's because those things are dramatic. Tuning in week after week of the 'will they, won't they' crap between Apollo and Starbuck does not fit my definition of drama, and it's the kind of crap that might earn them a 'jump the shark' nomination.

Now I'm sorry that I want to watch a sci-fi show and not 'Days of Our Cylon' instead. Also, as far as the Cylons chasing the humans go, and whether or not this is one-dimensional, that's hardly an indictment. Realistically, the humans would be trying their best to get as far away from the Cylons as possible. Sometimes it feels like they don't even bother.

 

[Finarvyn]

I think the new BSG is so much better than the original because of the complex plotlines.

I'm not caught up on the plot yet (still watching season 2.5) but I like a lot of what I'm seeing now much more than some of the earlier part when they found Kobol. It was too mystical at that point.

I'd much rather have lots of shoot-em-up action and fast-paced plotlines than episodes where people talk about doing things. I mean, I like a complicated storyline but also one which is mixed up with action.

 

[Space Cadet]

nBSG is more realistic, the old BSG was starting to look like Star Trek. The typical episode usually started out like a video game with Starbuck and Apollo blowing up Cylon Raiders left and right, then one of the two vipers would get hit, and they other viper would finish off that troublesome Cylon ship, but the damaged ship would have to head for the nearest Earthlike planet, and make a controlled crash on its surface, and once on the planet, they'd encounter some strange human societies, and from that point on, they might as well pull out their tricorders. Maybe the locals think of them as witches, or maybe the two Viper pilots have run afoul of some of their more obscure laws. Well the two Viper pilots typically resolve the planetary situation while they fix their ships, then the Cylon ships find them again, and they say "See you later." And they take off for the skies and kick some more Cylon butt.

 

[Klaus]

Originally posted by stofsk:
(bit hard to do that now thanks to that idiot, Helo).

Nope, Helo has got to be one of the three most interesting characters, along with Baltar and Saul Tigh (as Charlie Brooker put it, "a sort of interstellar Larry David").

Far from being an idiot, Helo has got principles, and thanks to the acting ability of Tamoh Penikett, it comes off genuine and heartlfelt, rather than the morality-by-the-numbers of a Captain Archer or Janeway.

nBSG is about as far away from Star Trek as you can get, and still be in space. More in common with Firefly and Farscape than Trek or B5.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Klaus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by stofsk:
(bit hard to do that now thanks to that idiot, Helo).

Nope, Helo has got to be one of the three most interesting characters, along with Baltar and Saul Tigh (as Charlie Brooker put it, "a sort of interstellar Larry David").

Far from being an idiot, Helo has got principles, and thanks to the acting ability of Tamoh Penikett, it comes off genuine and heartlfelt, rather than the morality-by-the-numbers of a Captain Archer or Janeway.</font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, this week's episode really showed Helo at his best. He sticks to what he knows is right despite what people think, even if it'd isolate him - and usually he does turn out right in the end. And he's often the only one asking the questions that need to be asked. I can definitely associate with that.

Tigh and Baltar are brilliant too - I thought Tigh was particularly good in that episode.

 

[kafka47]

Why I am getting visions of Galatica 2010 springing to my head. The year that Starbuck returns and the two colonial fleets are met in some sort of CGI world, where 70s Galatica meets rebooted Galatica, Starbuck falls for Number Six and the two Adama hit it off over a few brandies. Whilst, the Patrick Macnee plots over their ultimate destruction.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Klaus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by stofsk:
(bit hard to do that now thanks to that idiot, Helo).

Nope, Helo has got to be one of the three most interesting characters, along with Baltar and Saul Tigh (as Charlie Brooker put it, "a sort of interstellar Larry David").</font>[/QUOTE]Helo is interesting? Uh... well, that's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

But that has nothing to do with my comment about Helo acting like an idiot in one episode. You seem to be concluding that I don't like Helo, or don't think he's very interesting - which isn't true. I simply don't think his actions at the end of that episode were particularly bright. And further, it felt like a TNG-style copout.

Sorry, he's got principles - does that excuse the fact that what he did was potentially treasonous? What about consequences? Right or wrong (I happen to think he was right btw) it was not his decision to make, and the way he did it - subverting the authority of not only his President but also his Admiral - is something that should have earned him a sterner reprimand than the slap on the wrist he got. Hell, I don't even know if he got a slap on the wrist.

But that's another topic. Suffice to say Helo is interesting, but that doesn't mean he doesn't act like an idiot at times.

Far from being an idiot, Helo has got principles, and thanks to the acting ability of Tamoh Penikett, it comes off genuine and heartlfelt, rather than the morality-by-the-numbers of a Captain Archer or Janeway.

Not in dispute. I will say this: Tamoh Penikett sells his character better than that Quantum Leap guy did with Archer, or the actress that played Lameway did.

My problem with nBSG is, as it has always been, with the writing. The actors are all fine artists. I have no problem with them.

nBSG is about as far away from Star Trek as you can get, and still be in space. More in common with Firefly and Farscape than Trek or B5.

It has absolutely nothing in common with Farscape. Absolutely nothing. For a start, Farscape is classic space opera, and Moore is on record as saying classic space opera is so far away from where he has pointed nBSG that it's not funny.

Firefly is a stretch. The only point in similarity I will give you is the Naturalistic feel of the show. That said, something's wrong when Firefly has things that nBSG obviously doesn't, like lasers and grav cars/cities.

No, your assertion that nBSG is on the opposite side of the galaxy to Trek is wrong. Some episodes, I'll pay you that. But there have been quite a few episodes, particularly this season, and in particular the last episode, that could have easily been tweaked and twisted a little and would have fit into a stock-standard TNG episode.

I've complained before about the soap opera elements to nBSG, which is the same complaint I had against TNG and DS9. This can't be helped: Moore cut his teeth on Trek and it was his first job as a professional writer. Fine, he was always one of TNG's and DS9's strongest writers - but the influence continues to be there in his artistic direction of nBSG.

 

[Malenfant]

There was a bonus scene in last week's ep that had Helo admitting what he did. I think there's more on the website, I only saw a few seconds of it.

The thing with Helo is that I think he's basically the "heart" of BSG. He's pretty much the only one with his head screwed on properly, everyone else is so focussed on their own personal demons and responsibilities that they don't see exactly how inhuman they're becoming. In the last episode they got reminded of that quite nicely.

Again, maybe what he did was "treasonous", but had they succeeded then humanity would have become as monstrous as bad as the cylons. No sane morality would allow a tit-for-tat genocide. It's a timely reminder in this day and age when some people think it's OK to become as bad as their enemies, discarding their own values that made them the good guys in the first place.

The humans often end up stepping perilously close to the edge - but Helo's the one that is there to pull them back. If he were gone, humans wouldn't have anyone to stop them throwing themselves over it.

 

[stofsk]

Just because it was treasonous doesn't necessarily mean Helo should be punished for it. That is why we have an adversarial system, the accused can be found not guilty of whatever crime he is charged with.

That said, I find Roslin's argument "What we do may be wrong and generations from now they will curse our very memory; but they will be alive." And besides, the Cylons started it. It's not like the Colonials were going Dalek on their asses before the genocide of the 12 Colonies.

But all that is another topic, what I was getting at though is they didn't show Helo suffer the consquences for his defiance. I'm not talking about deleted scenes, or half a dozen episodes later, I'm talking immediate consequences.

 

[Space Cadet]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Why I am getting visions of Galatica 2010 springing to my head. The year that Starbuck returns and the two colonial fleets are met in some sort of CGI world, where 70s Galatica meets rebooted Galatica, Starbuck falls for Number Six and the two Adama hit it off over a few brandies. Whilst, the Patrick Macnee plots over their ultimate destruction.

Why not have Starbuck fall for Starbuck? He was always in love with himself anyway, he could say to Kara, "What's your sign? ... Gee, I'm a Caprica too. Isn't that interesting, looks like we got alot in common." Then Baltar could say to Baltar, "hey, how can you stand that light shining up in your face all the time? An no skin jobs to boot, just a bunch of clunky mechanicals, what a bummer!"

 

[Space Cadet]

I've complained before about the soap opera elements to nBSG, which is the same complaint I had against TNG and DS9. This can't be helped: Moore cut his teeth on Trek and it was his first job as a professional writer. Fine, he was always one of TNG's and DS9's strongest writers - but the influence continues to be there in his artistic direction of nBSG. [/QB]

What's there to complain about? You could have 100% mission oriented characters for example, or you can have characters that have human relationships so the audience can more easily identify with them. Would you want to put President Rosilyn in a Viper and have her shoot down Cylon Raiders?

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Space Cadet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I've complained before about the soap opera elements to nBSG, which is the same complaint I had against TNG and DS9. This can't be helped: Moore cut his teeth on Trek and it was his first job as a professional writer. Fine, he was always one of TNG's and DS9's strongest writers - but the influence continues to be there in his artistic direction of nBSG.

What's there to complain about? You could have 100% mission oriented characters for example, or you can have characters that have human relationships so the audience can more easily identify with them. Would you want to put President Rosilyn in a Viper and have her shoot down Cylon Raiders? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Jesus Christ.

Get this: there is a difference between drama, and soap opera. To repeat myself. Again.

There are more interesting things to write about than "Lol Apollo-Starbuck-Dee-Anders" or "Lol Helo argues with Sharon about being 'That guy who's married to the Cylon'" or "Lol the Chief and Cally are arguing" etc.

Most of us would like the actual plot of the show to MOVE. If you're happy with Battlestar Livejournal, good for you, I don't care, I want these characters to find their new home and all the decisions and sacrifices that must be made to do so.

I don't know why I'm bothering. Because apparently pointing out how the soap opera elements are disagreeable to me means I don't tolerate 'human relationships' or that this somehow allows the audience to identify with the characters, even though it does nothing to help ME identify with them, because I keep looking at those disingenuous scenes and go "These people are on the very edge of survival, and instead of showing us episodes of severely depressed people contemplating suicide they instead focus on hypocritical spoiled BRATS who waste time ⌧ing around. And why - because the writers can't think of anything better for these characters to do.

Last season they did an episode about making abortion illegal - because numbers are dwindling and humanity needs to ⌧ing survive. Unfortunately, this potential goldmine of a subplot was only used to propel the 'Baltar for President' plot, and has quietly since been forgotten. Did the law get passed? Did it get repealed? Is humanity doomed because depressed women don't want to bring a child into this world after suffering A ⌧ING GENOCIDE? How should I know - hey, let's look at Apollo and Starbuck, will they won't they - WHO CARES.

What about last episode, with the Sagittarons refusing to take medicine... and thus, getting sick and dying and spreading plague and ENDANGERING HUMANITY - oh wait, we have to show Helo be the darling Angel he is and theres a halo over his head and it was the EVIL DOCTOR WITH THE EVIL MEDICINE ALL THIS TIME, no we can't criticise the thinly-veiled jehovah witness analogue people.

Few more weeks back: "We don't have anymore food on this ship." So this episode will be about trying to survive on scraps and crumbs? Food shortages throughout the fleet? Maybe even riots over rationing - who gets preferential treatment? And will be solved without visiting the Planet of the Plot Devices? No, a crying shame because this is a goldmine of a plot because it promises to be about making tough decisions and so on but don't worry, it'll all be about Kat and her days as a drug dealer before she became the Galactica's second-sexiest pilot (Racetrack is first), which is a semi-interesting character arc and I would like to know more about her and get to know her better because she's about a million times more interesting than Starbuck and she might become a main character rather than just a supporting character and WHAT THE ⌧ YOU KILLED HER??!! And how did they kill her? By having her fly through the Plot Device Cluster.

And the race to find earth is... missing, in the midst of all this claptrap. But because I am not in the least bit interested in the hackneyed and contrived 'human relationships' that would fit like a glove in a show like Melrose Place or Days of Our Lives, what I really want is "Roslin in a viper cockpit lol." No, what I really want is for this show to be like it was back in the first and second seasons, where the writing was tighter, the dialogue better, the characters more sympathetic and interesting, and the danger from the Cylons and their circumstances very real and challenging.

PS Y'know, it actually wouldn't kill them to have a decent dogfight. Since this is a show about humanity struggling to survive in a universe that hates them, it would be nice to see that danger every now and then.