Building Armies

[Fovean]

Precisely my point.
The main idea is that with higher tech grav takes over the other two lift/fighting types, and that the sort of distances and terrain to cover alters the lift requirements.

[Hydrographic -(TL/3)] * 10 = percentage Nautical Force Command

Size * (TL/2) = percentage Air/Grav force.

The remainder is wheeled/tracked.

Briefly doing some back-of-the-envelope calcs for my OTU campaign, this seems interesting, fun and in the right ballpark. What are you thinking if there is an in-system Scout or Naval base? Seems like there could be permanent detachments that might up the effectiveness of ground forces.

I know, it depends, but curious regardless.

 

[Reban]

Precisely my point.

A world looking to enforce a high law level and the force is more constabulary is different from one defending against the slavering hellspawn of Altair IV. Among other things the former will need to be lighter and more numerous to provide greater coverage, altering the BE count itself.

On the battalion types- should be aerospace and nautical force command types fleshed out. Still home field advantage to locally optimized aircraft over grav for quite a few TLs, and depending on your view the basic starship may not be optimized for submerged operations or too expensive to risk in wet/aerospace operations.

In a quick costing like you are doing, I would make naval and air/grav battalions cost double of inf, and double again for veteran, triple for elite.

Divide by 2 for conscripts, sail or local equestrian lift. Steam rail/ships do not reduce cost.

Here is a QND formula for figuring major nav/air-grav/wheeled-tracked percentages based on the TL and UWP stats.

The main idea is that with higher tech grav takes over the other two lift/fighting types, and that the sort of distances and terrain to cover alters the lift requirements.

[Hydrographic -(TL/3)] * 10 = percentage Nautical Force Command

Size * (TL/2) = percentage Air/Grav force.

The remainder is wheeled/tracked.

This was something I was going to bring up next:

1. Are the FFW and GT:GF tables a good way of calculating the raw BE number. In other words do they generate too few, just the right number, or too many raw BEs?

2. So far I've concentrated on the Ground Forces Command, in Traveller terms, of "the Army". Ideally we should generate Wet Navy and COACC forces too. My question, related to point 1. is should they be generated from the raw BE number or abstracted or generated in another way.

I like your approach, but I'm not sure they should come out of the pool of BEs for the Ground Force Command or should they be in addition to it.

T5 makes a distinction between grav vehicles operating at ground level and air and low orbit grav vehicles (the next stage is small craft and spaceships).

Briefly doing some back-of-the-envelope calcs for my OTU campaign, this seems interesting, fun and in the right ballpark. What are you thinking if there is an in-system Scout or Naval base? Seems like there could be permanent detachments that might up the effectiveness of ground forces.

I know, it depends, but curious regardless.

IMTU and perhaps in the OTU a Naval Base I'm assuming would be an Imperial installation so the forces should be generated as part of the subsector or sector fleet and include an Imperial Marine garrison. How much they get involved with local forces, the planetary defense force, depends on the situation.

There are some references for Scout way-stations acting as Imperial Army depots. Again their involvement in local defense depends on the circumstances.

Short version: Naval Forces should be generated separately and Imperial forces contribution to local defense depends on the circumstances.

 

[Condottiere]

Military orgainzation can very much depend on the last war the military had fought.

Also, culture counts: look up Vilani organization in GURPS Interstellar Wars.

 

[Fovean]

IMTU and perhaps in the OTU a Naval Base I'm assuming would be an Imperial installation so the forces should be generated as part of the subsector or sector fleet and include an Imperial Marine garrison. How much they get involved with local forces, the planetary defense force, depends on the situation.

There are some references for Scout way-stations acting as Imperial Army depots. Again their involvement in local defense depends on the circumstances.

Short version: Naval Forces should be generated separately and Imperial forces contribution to local defense depends on the circumstances.

Thanks for these thoughts, feels like we're on the same page. So do BEs become units in a more strategic level game or are we going for background info for setting/character development? The OP asks a very simple question of creating these formations but once we have them what do we do with them?

In a broader sense I would say the Navy provides Marines (increased defense/precision strike effectiveness) while the Scouts provide sensors/couriers (increased awareness/info sharing). These are both good things. For an Imperial aligned planet anyway.

Clearly they are bad things if a planet with Imperial bases is going against the Imperial grain.

 

[kilemall]

This was something I was going to bring up next:

1. Are the FFW and GT:GF tables a good way of calculating the raw BE number. In other words do they generate too few, just the right number, or too many raw BEs?

2. So far I've concentrated on the Ground Forces Command, in Traveller terms, of "the Army". Ideally we should generate Wet Navy and COACC forces too. My question, related to point 1. is should they be generated from the raw BE number or abstracted or generated in another way.

I like your approach, but I'm not sure they should come out of the pool of BEs for the Ground Force Command or should they be in addition to it.

T5 makes a distinction between grav vehicles operating at ground level and air and low orbit grav vehicles (the next stage is small craft and spaceships).

TBH I am winging it from contextual clues, not having read the referenced materials of either GT, FFW or T5 rules base.

If this is T5 I would assume there are a lot of 'extra' UWP definitions that should help determine just how heavily armed the planet is. There should also be a conflict index number that would be the main modifier of percentage of GWP/RU/whatever that goes to armed forces- if it doesn't exist, one should be added.

Amber or Red zones should get particular attention as to whether conflict is the basis of the classification- those alert levels can be based on another 'problem' or quarantine, making a separate number a good idea.

So since you are going 'off-grid' outside of the original material in GT or FFW, I guess my 'outside looking in' approach would be to

• generate a base level forces off of the economy calc, to include pop, TL and starport, modified by the primary conflict level and any T5 variables on xenophobia, aggressiveness, etc.,

• run a space forces vs. ground forces percentage based on atmosphere, something like (10 - ATMO/2) *10= percentage devoted to Space Forces, remainder is your planetary BE budget,

• figure out how many BE of that devoted CRs/RUs/whatevers buys, with TL being the primary BE base cost determinant,

• run my above formula through on your BEs to get the mix of air/nav/ground force, and

• modify the BE high/low mix to taste re: troop quality, which should probably also determine operational readiness.

I'd put Marines, meson guns, missile batteries and other planetary defense related units devoted to anti-ship operations in the Space Force budget. For a vacuum or near vacuum environment, Marines ARE the local army.

As to Star Wars speeder low-grav lift vs. high-grav, you can treat as you like of course, I guess my take is that if you have that granularity in gravitics in play then low ground grav takes the place of wheeled/tracked at higher tech levels, and air-grav is still high altitude higher powered units.

 

[Reban]

Thanks for these thoughts, feels like we're on the same page. So do BEs become units in a more strategic level game or are we going for background info for setting/character development? The OP asks a very simple question of creating these formations but once we have them what do we do with them?

In a broader sense I would say the Navy provides Marines (increased defense/precision strike effectiveness) while the Scouts provide sensors/couriers (increased awareness/info sharing). These are both good things. For an Imperial aligned planet anyway.

Clearly they are bad things if a planet with Imperial bases is going against the Imperial grain.

Well Battalion Equivalents come from a JTAS 10 article expanding the strategic board game Fifth Frontier War by allowing player to generate military forces for planets in regions other than those covered in the FFW rules.

Then Gurps Traveller: Ground Forces included a system expanding on that original article and including a method for generating Imperial Army formations to flesh out subsectors and sectors.

So my informal ArmyMaker project is primarily for adding colour IMTU but could be used with the FFW rules.

Thats a good point about Scout bases aiding surveillance and communications.

The point I was trying to make in my original answer to you on this point was that there are probably three modes for Imperial Forces that happen to be stationed on a planet in conflict.

Neutral observers in local conflicts, either on the world or between that world and another Imperial planet. They can't, or more correctly shouldn't, get involved, but they can insure that the Imperial Rules of War are being observed.

Joint or co-ordinated Defense. If faced with an external threat to the imperium the local Imperial Forces should probably take up command of the Imperial, Colonial, and Planetary Defense Forces

Peacekeeping or Garrison duties. When the Imperial Rules of War get broken or the planet becomes a problem to the Imperium I'd assume the local Imperial Forces take up these tasks both overtly or maybe on a lower level by providing the odd separate brigade to assist in counter-insurgency.

How involved they get depends on the circumstances.

TBH I am winging it from contextual clues, not having read the referenced materials of either GT, FFW or T5 rules base.

If this is T5 I would assume there are a lot of 'extra' UWP definitions that should help determine just how heavily armed the planet is. There should also be a conflict index number that would be the main modifier of percentage of GWP/RU/whatever that goes to armed forces- if it doesn't exist, one should be added.

Amber or Red zones should get particular attention as to whether conflict is the basis of the classification- those alert levels can be based on another 'problem' or quarantine, making a separate number a good idea.

All good points. However I'm a fan of KISS: keep it simple spaceman and MOARN: Make Only As Needed (and acronyms in general) so personaly I'd make some of those factors "Guidance to the creator" items, rather than incorporate them in the Maker process.

So since you are going 'off-grid' outside of the original material in GT or FFW, I guess my 'outside looking in' approach would be to

• generate a base level forces off of the economy calc, to include pop, TL and starport, modified by the primary conflict level and any T5 variables on xenophobia, aggressiveness, etc.,

I'm sticking to generating the raw BEs from Population and Tech Level. I'm thinking of modifying the army's base TL with reference to Starport and the Economic Extension. The Cultural Extension may modify the number of raw BEs, that takes some thinking about how exactly.

Here's some more context: I'm assuming that the army generated for a world is it's Planetary Defense Force, a portion of that force is considered Mobile and is that world's contribution to the Colonial Ground Forces. The Imperial BEs generated from a world are part of its membership requirement.

• run a space forces vs. ground forces percentage based on atmosphere, something like (10 - ATMO/2) *10= percentage devoted to Space Forces, remainder is your planetary BE budget,

I'm committed to generating the space forces ("Naval Forces") and Army separately because there's a clear division between the two in the OTU.

The Army in Traveller terms contains the Ground Force Command (who fight on or near the surface), the COACC (Close Orbit and Airspace Command who fight in the interface between the ground and space; the atmosphere and orbit) and the Wet Navy (who fight on and in bodies of planetary liquid). The important thing to understand is all three have overlaps, for example all three probably have infantry components and all three will operate grav fighting vehicles, although each will have forces optimised for their area of responsibility.

• figure out how many BE of that devoted CRs/RUs/whatevers buys, with TL being the primary BE base cost determinant,

This kinda doesn't work for me. My idea of what a BE is, is a slice of manpower roughly 500 combat troops (although probably a range from 250-750) that are equipped to the expected standard for a world of that TL.

A BE is what a world can generate from its own resources. So I'm thinking of using RUs to "buy" extra capability by upgrading their TL.

Not every BE generated has to be part of the active army, They might be placed on reserve or just not raised depending peace situation. BEs might be thought of as the military manpower pool, rather than fully formed fighting units.

• run my above formula through on your BEs to get the mix of air/nav/ground force, and

I like your formula, it might work okay to generate COACC and Wet Navy if it leaves a reasonable slice for the Ground Force Command. However the FFW and GT:GF tables provide numbers just for the ground forces (I think) so that might mean modification.

• modify the BE high/low mix to taste re: troop quality, which should probably also determine operational readiness.

In the existing system this is simply done by paying two BEs to gain an Elite BE while downgrading to Militia gains BEs of poorer quality.

Operational readiness is usually tied to force generation i.e if you have three brigades one may be at full readiness. The portion of the planetary defense force allocated as Mobile forces might be the high readiness force with the others requiring a period of mobilization.

I'd put Marines, meson guns, missile batteries and other planetary defense related units devoted to anti-ship operations in the Space Force budget. For a vacuum or near vacuum environment, Marines ARE the local army.

As to Star Wars speeder low-grav lift vs. high-grav, you can treat as you like of course, I guess my take is that if you have that granularity in gravitics in play then low ground grav takes the place of wheeled/tracked at higher tech levels, and air-grav is still high altitude higher powered units.

[/QUOTE]

Marines and Meson guns to the Navy yes. Missiles and other planetary defense batteries I think could be place in or shared by the Army. My reasoning here is these units are for protecting the ground from spacecraft in orbit or atmosphere and that is a COACC responsibility.

For vacuum and exotic atmospheres as well as other hostile environments T5 soldiers can be part of the Protected Forces Branch. They share a lot of the capabilities of the Marines except they are not ship based troops. However thats T5 specific background, on the general point I agree.

Here's the way I'm interpreting the high/low grav break. In the Army grav fighting vehicles replace tanks and IFV forces, attack and transport helicopter forces, and close air support forces in the Ground Forces Command. While the high grav optimized vehicles are in the COACC for interceptor roles and the strategic strike roles.

Your take on all the above is interesting and its motivating me to put these ideas that have been in my brain down in black and white.

 

[Garnfellow]

I'm sticking to generating the raw BEs from Population and Tech Level. I'm thinking of modifying the army's base TL with reference to Starport and the Economic Extension. The Cultural Extension may modify the number of raw BEs, that takes some thinking about how exactly.

I think both the JTAS and GURPS systems also modify for atmospheres? It seems like tainted or exotic or vacuum atmos kick out less BEs, presumably because they would all be protected force troops.

 

[Reban]

I think both the JTAS and GURPS systems also modify for atmospheres? It seems like tainted or exotic or vacuum atmos kick out less BEs, presumably because they would all be protected force troops.

Yes thats right. Both shift down a column for vacuum and tainted atmospheres reflecting fewer troops available (or of use) on such worlds.

It also models the idea that the population may live in enclosed habitats where smaller numbers of troops are either required or useful.

Presumably ProFor troops are for fighting outside, but other types of "normal" troops could still function inside. in my mind such habitats qualify as the kind of "complex terrain" that infantry are ideally suited for.

 

[McPerth]

BEs can be Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, Protected, Medical and Technical as per Branches in the T5 Soldier career.

This fully depends on what do you inted to create the army for. If it's for a purely combat game, then I'd forfeit medical and technical (assmed to be there, but not really relevant in combat). And the level of detail you intend is also important in many things.

About protect, I'd say this is a modifier for infantry or cavalry. more than a category for themselves. As for artillery, see below...

Mobility should have a base TL

Mobility types:
Standard
Foot
Wheeled
Tracked
Lift (Air at lower TLs)
Drop (Para at lower TLs)
Mounted (horses or other riding beasts)
Protected (might work better here?)

What would be the sandard mobility? see that the example you put below (a tank battalion) could be tracked (or lift at higher TLs).

I'd also merge weeled and tracked into "motorized", meaning non-foot but ground, at least if you intend it for strategical non-detailed use

I also disagree in saying that lift would be air at lower TLs. IMHO they will be airlift troops, as air units cannot occupy as ground troops do. In this sense (capable to act at distance, but that doesn't mean actually move) I'd view air as artillery, on the categories you said above in your post

And what about jump troops? will they be drop?

Drop (be orbital jump or airborne drop) uses to be a single action, while the rest of the time they have other mobility means (usually foot, but there may be others). So I'd take as special case, not as mobility.

eg.
Armored Standard = A Tank Battalion
Armored Foot = could be Battledressed troops or Mechs?
Armored Lift = A Grav Tank Battalion
Armored Mounted = Heavy Cavalry perhaps?
Infantry Tracked = Mechanized Infantry
Armored Drop/Para = Assault Cavalry or Russian Airborne

See that this definitions don't match with the categories you put above, as on there there were no armored, but cavalry

 

[Timerover51]

I guess what puzzles me in following this thread is where are those trying to develop Battalion-equivalant units going with it?

Are you planning to use them as combat factors for planetary invasions? If so, then you are using Traveller as a basis for a war game, and no longer a role-playing game. Are you just trying to figure out how much of a military a planet will support? If that is the case, what is the purpose of all of the activity if you are not going to use it?

If you are going to use the information for a game based on planetary invasions and space warfare, where are the rules for this to be found? As you assuming that all of your possible opponents are doing nothing during all of this military buildup?

Finally, looking at all of this from the standpoint of a logistics officer, there is an enormous amount of focus on combat units, but none on how those combat units are supported in combat. it that respect it reminds of reading through the operational planning for Operation Barbarossa in World War 2. The logistic planning was severely lacking, as the assumption was that the campaign would be over in six weeks, so logistics would not be a factor. When it was not, then logistics raised it ugly head. I compare this to the Allied invasion of North Africa, where the entire focus was on capturing as many ports as early as possible to make sure that the invasion forces could be supported, or the extremely complex logistic planning for Operation Overlord, which included the building of the Mulberry artificial harbors, along with an enormous number of landing craft and DUKWs (amphibious two and a half ton trucks) to get supplies across the beaches.

 

[Condottiere]

I think the tail extended ten times in Vietnam; optimum I believe should be about five to one.

A lot of personnel could and would be replaced and augmented by automation and robots.

 

[McPerth]

Are you planning to use them as combat factors for planetary invasions? If so, then you are using Traveller as a basis for a war game, and no longer a role-playing game. Are you just trying to figure out how much of a military a planet will support? If that is the case, what is the purpose of all of the activity if you are not going to use it?

There are several such games in Traveller universe too...

If you are going to use the information for a game based on planetary invasions and space warfare, where are the rules for this to be found?

Depending on the aspect of the war and the level of detail you want to use, They may be from AHL/Snapshoot to stiker or to FFW or Imperium...

What perhaps lacks in those games in one about the interface at a tactical/operational level...

Finally, looking at all of this from the standpoint of a logistics officer, there is an enormous amount of focus on combat units, but none on how those combat units are supported in combat. it that respect it reminds of reading through the operational planning for Operation Barbarossa in World War 2. The logistic planning was severely lacking, as the assumption was that the campaign would be over in six weeks, so logistics would not be a factor. When it was not, then logistics raised it ugly head. I compare this to the Allied invasion of North Africa, where the entire focus was on capturing as many ports as early as possible to make sure that the invasion forces could be supported, or the extremely complex logistic planning for Operation Overlord, which included the building of the Mulberry artificial harbors, along with an enormous number of landing craft and DUKWs (amphibious two and a half ton trucks) to get supplies across the beaches.

Is this not true in most (if not outright all) wargames?

In most I've played they go to simply ignored to "you have to keep you supply lines open"...

 

[kilemall]

I think both the JTAS and GURPS systems also modify for atmospheres? It seems like tainted or exotic or vacuum atmos kick out less BEs, presumably because they would all be protected force troops.

One side point to my formula, the higher the atmo the higher the percentage of ground forces.

That includes the exotic/insidious/corrosive types on up.

The main idea is that the more atmo the more ground forces and especially air-grav are viable.

I decided to double down on the formula after thinking that a ground force would hold some formidable home field advantage for being used to operating in the exotic atmo environment.

It could also be argued that human habitats in those atmospheres are more vulnerable to breaching by ortillery and so the doctrine would be to have a stronger navy to avoid that threat.

Another point, a tainted atmosphere is going to especially be challenging to any kind of air-breathing engine, and the atmosphere densities themselves would likely require at least tuning if not a specialized engine tailored to that atmo.

So ground forces using some kind of aspiration and air-breathing jets/turbines built to local UWP should have home advantage. I don't know what T5 has as ultimate jet tech, probably TL11-12, but that should be a factor in builds to that level.

 

[kilemall]

Your take on all the above is interesting and its motivating me to put these ideas that have been in my brain down in black and white.

Glad to be of service in clarifying your system.

 

[Reban]

This fully depends on what do you inted to create the army for. If it's for a purely combat game, then I'd forfeit medical and technical (assmed to be there, but not really relevant in combat). And the level of detail you intend is also important in many things.

I agree. After I'd posted that I decided if I went with that option I'd limit myself to Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery. BEs are assumed to represent 500 combat troops, 500 combat support and 1000 other "tail" elements.

About protect, I'd say this is a modifier for infantry or cavalry. more than a category for themselves. As for artillery, see below...

I'd tend to agree, however its included as a Branch of the "Army" in T5. What I think Protected Troops are for are the extremes of environment: Hellworlds, Vacuum, Frozen worlds from the Trade Classifications and Exotic terrains section.

If your standard troops are equipped with Combat Environment Suits, Combat Armor or Battledress then they can function in a range of environments from Terran norms to the vacuum of space so in comparison Protected Forces must be a notch above with suits optimized for High Radiation, extremes of Pressure, exotic or insidious atmospheres or other extremes

What would be the sandard mobility? see taht the example you put below (a tank battalion) could be tracked (or lift at higher TLs).

Forgive the lack of detail because I was typing off the top of my head. Let me see if I can expand on these a bit.

Standard depends on TL. Armour above TL9 is probably grav. Infantry above TL5 is probably truck mounted. TL7 Infantry is probably mounted in tracked APCs. In a Maker system "Standard" can also be omitted, so Standard Armored is just Armored or Standard Infantry is just Infantry. Not a perfect system but again it allows the creator to say "My Standard Infantry Brigade on my TL15 world are a Lift Infantry Brigade".

I'd also merge weeled and tracked into "motorized", meaning non-foot but ground, at least if you intend it for strategical non-detailed use

I avoided motorized because it has different specific meanings in different militarys. Motorized and Mechanized can both encompass different mixes of wheeled and tracked fighting vehicles.

I'll have a think about this but I think I'd prefer to allow the user to generate a wheeled or tracked formation and then decide the terms they want to use. For example I generate a Armor BE with the mobility modifier tracked and group a number together into an Army formation. I could call that a Tank Army, a Panzer Army. a Mechanized Army or maybe a Landship Army.

I also disagree in saying that lift would be air at lower TLs. IMHO they will be airlift troops, as air units cannot occupy as ground troops do. In this sense (capable to act at distance, but that doesn't mean actually move) I'd view air as atrillery, on the categories you said above in your post

Maybe you've misunderstood because I gave no detail but I see Lift Infantry as the blending of Mechanized Infantry and Air Assault Infantry; infantry carried in armoured vehicles and moving in a similar way to heliborne infantry. Probably I should use air-mobile rather than simply air.

And what about jump troops? will they be drop?

I tend to use Jump and Drop interchangeably. I like the GT:GF idea that jump troops are organized as RIBs or Rapid Interface Battalions of light infantry descended from paratroops. Drop armor would be armored vehicles operating in support of the jump troops along the lines of how the Russians equip their Airborne or VDV formations. Drop Artillery would be artillery capable of travelling from orbit to a world surface to support jump troops.

Drop (be orbital jump or airborne drop) uses to be a single action, while the rest of the time they have other movility means (usually foot, but there may be others). So I'd take as special case, not as mobility.

The ability to move from orbit to the surface (or for airborne the ability to move by air) is a one direction journey but we have airborne or para troops that we understand to be light infantry but we place importance on their primary mode of transport.

There's information on the make-up of Jump regiments in Travellers Digest which says that they have three jump infantry battalions, a grav armored battalion and an artillery battalion so at regimental level they are mixed mobility.

See that this definitions don't match with the categories you put above, as on there there were no armored, but cavalry

Ah I see what happened here, I presented two options: 1) Go with the Infantry/Armor BE types that are used in JTAS10 and GT:GF or 2) Use the Branches from the T5 Soldier career Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery (dispensing with ProFor, Medical and Technical). For the examples I just used the Infantry/Armor option. Here are the Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery option examples:

Infantry - Standard (depends on TL. Eg. Trucks at TL5 or G-Carriers at TL10)
Infantry - Foot (leg infantry has uses at all TLs in complex terrain)
Infantry - Wheeled (Motor infantry, Bicycle Troops, Mechanized Infantry)
Infantry - Tracked (Panzergrenadiers, Mechanized Infantry, Crawler Infantry)
Infantry - Lift (carried by grav vehicles)
Infantry - Air (carried by aircraft: helicopters, transport aircraft, gliders)
Infantry - Drop (capable of transfer from orbit to ground)
Infantry - Para (capable of transfer from air to ground)
Infantry - Mounted (mounted infantry on horses, kians or miniphants)

Cavalry - Standard (depending on TL this could be a horse or grav tank)
Cavalry - Foot (Aha! one that maybe doesn't work or perhaps they are dismounted, or dragoons or a troop type transported by a vehicle but who fight on foot)
Cavalry - Wheeled (Armoured Cars)
Cavalry - Tracked (Tanks and mechanized fighting vehicles)
Cavalry - Lift (Grav tanks or Lift troops that emphasize speed)
Cavalry - Air (Helicopter or VTOL equipped)
Cavalry - Drop (Grav fighting vehicles capable of transfer from orbit)
Cavalry - Para (Jeeps, Light tanks, BMDs, Wiesel armored carriers)
Cavalry - Mounted (Horse cavalry or horse analogs)

Artillery - Standard (dependent on TL)
Artillery - Foot (usually travel at the pace of marching troops)
Artillery - Wheeled (truck mounted or wheeled Self Propelled Artillery)
Artillery - Tracked (SPG designed to support tracked formations)
Artillery - Lift (SPG or SP artillery on grav chassis)
Artillery - Air (Airborne or air-mobile artillery)
Artillery - Drop (artillery capable of transferring from orbit to surface. That implies grav but could be retro-rockets, shuttles, gliders, etc.)
Artillery - Mounted (Horse artillery or maybe catapults straped to dinosaurs)


The above are only examples designed to help get a handle on the creative side. The thing about the T5 Makers is that they can produce combinations that don't work or are sub-optimal. The products created with a Maker needs creative input to interpret them.

 

[Reban]

What started this off was that I spotted the Traveller Wiki on some of its world entries under Cultural Details has: Army size (BEs)

Does anyone know if these are automatically generated from the JTAS 10 table? Or are they entered manually?

Having checked them against that table I believe they are from the JTAS 10 version rather than GT:GF.


As to the why: ArmyMaker is just a thought exercise in how to build a Maker system and something to add background and colour IMTU.

However it could easily be used for wargaming with slightly updated rules from Fifth Frontier War.

 

[McPerth]

I'd tend to agree, however its included as a Branch of the "Army" in T5. What I think Protected Troops are for are the extremes of environment: Hellworlds, Vacuum, Frozen worlds from the Trade Classifications and Exotic terrains section.

If your standard troops are equipped with Combat Environment Suits, Combat Armor or Battledress then they can function in a range of environments from Terran norms to the vacuum of space so in comparison Protected Forces must be a notch above with suits optimized for High Radiation, extremes of Pressure, exotic or insidious atmospheres or other extremes

I have not read T5, but I guess there are comandos too, and I'd see them as Infantry with some special capabilities. That's what I meant.

I agree protected trops must be somewhat depicted, but I see more as a symbol in the counter, so to say, that as a different kind of troops.

See, though, that in FFW they are not depicted, and all troops are affected by hostile atmosphere or vacuum...

Forgive the lack of detail because I was typing off the top of my head. Let me see if I can expand on these a bit.

Standard depends on TL. Armour above TL9 is probably grav. Infantry above TL5 is probably truck mounted. TL7 Infantry is probably mounted in tracked APCs. In a Maker system "Standard" can also be omitted, so Standard Armored is just Armored or Standard Infantry is just Infantry. Not a perfect system but again it allows the creator to say "My Standard Infantry Brigade on my TL15 world are a Lift Infantry Brigade".

Again based on FFW, they keep having the mobility symbol (even while all units but Esalin divisions are grav lift, so this is clearly the standard). And even in IE!, where all ground units are grav lift they are marked as such...

I avoided motorized because it has different specific meanings in different militarys. Motorized and Mechanized can both encompass different mixes of wheeled and tracked fighting vehicles.

I'll have a think about this but I think I'd prefer to allow the user to generate a wheeled or tracked formation and then decide the terms they want to use. For example I generate a Armor BE with the mobility modifier tracked and group a number together into an Army formation. I could call that a Tank Army, a Panzer Army. a Mechanized Army or maybe a Landship Army.

My question is, would there be any difference among those two movements? In a tactical game, it's off course important if the movement is under tracks or wheels, as tracks use to have better cross-county mobility, but in a strategic one, I have doubts about this be really relevant (and I think this level we're talking about fills into this last category, though I might be wrong).

Maybe you've misunderstood because I gave no detail but I see Lift Infantry as the blending of Mechanized Infantry and Air Assault Infantry; infantry carried in armoured vehicles and moving in a similar way to heliborne infantry. Probably I should use air-mobile rather than simply air.

Sorry, I understood air units (so planes/helicopters), not air-mobile ones.

I tend to use Jump and Drop interchangeably. I like the GT:GF idea that jump troops are organized as RIBs or Rapid Interface Battalions of light infantry descended from paratroops. Drop armor would be armored vehicles operating in support of the jump troops along the lines of how the Russians equip their Airborne or VDV formations. Drop Artillery would be artillery capable of travelling from orbit to a world surface to support jump troops.


The ability to move from orbit to the surface (or for airborne the ability to move by air) is a one direction journey but we have airborne or para troops that we understand to be light infantry but we place importance on their primary mode of transport.

There's information on the make-up of Jump regiments in Travellers Digest which says that they have three jump infantry battalions, a grav armored battalion and an artillery battalion so at regimental level they are mixed mobility.

Yes, in grand strategy games, but not in lesser ones. If the only mobility given is drop, how do they move once they have droped?

See again that in FFW or IE!, drop (in this case orbital drop, or jump) troops are designed as a diferent kind of Infantry, but their mobility is lift (grav), as it's how they move once on ground.

I don't see jump troops as going to orbit to jump again in the same invasión as a usual occurence, as I don't see paratroopers to airdrop more than one in the same campaign, so to say (and, BTW, I see air-mobility as lift troops, unlike paratroops that would be drop cabale infantry).

Ah I see what happened here, I presented two options: 1) Go with the Infantry/Armor BE types that are used in JTAS10 and GT:GF or 2) Use the Branches from the T5 Soldier career Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery (dispensing with ProFor, Medical and Technical). For the examples I just used the Infantry/Armor option. Here are the Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery option examples:

Infantry - Standard (depends on TL. Eg. Trucks at TL5 or G-Carriers at TL10)
Infantry - Foot (leg infantry has uses at all TLs in complex terrain)
Infantry - Wheeled (Motor infantry, Bicycle Troops, Mechanized Infantry)
Infantry - Tracked (Panzergrenadiers, Mechanized Infantry, Crawler Infantry)
Infantry - Lift (carried by grav vehicles)
Infantry - Air (carried by aircraft: helicopters, transport aircraft, gliders)
Infantry - Drop (capable of transfer from orbit to ground)
Infantry - Para (capable of transfer from air to ground)
Infantry - Mounted (mounted infantry on horses, kians or miniphants)

Cavalry - Standard (depending on TL this could be a horse or grav tank)
Cavalry - Foot (Aha! one that maybe doesn't work or perhaps they are dismounted, or dragoons or a troop type transported by a vehicle but who fight on foot)
Cavalry - Wheeled (Armoured Cars)
Cavalry - Tracked (Tanks and mechanized fighting vehicles)
Cavalry - Lift (Grav tanks or Lift troops that emphasize speed)
Cavalry - Air (Helicopter or VTOL equipped)
Cavalry - Drop (Grav fighting vehicles capable of transfer from orbit)
Cavalry - Para (Jeeps, Light tanks, BMDs, Wiesel armored carriers)
Cavalry - Mounted (Horse cavalry or horse analogs)

Artillery - Standard (dependent on TL)
Artillery - Foot (usually travel at the pace of marching troops)
Artillery - Wheeled (truck mounted or wheeled Self Propelled Artillery)
Artillery - Tracked (SPG designed to support tracked formations)
Artillery - Lift (SPG or SP artillery on grav chassis)
Artillery - Air (Airborne or air-mobile artillery)
Artillery - Drop (artillery capable of transferring from orbit to surface. That implies grav but could be retro-rockets, shuttles, gliders, etc.)
Artillery - Mounted (Horse artillery or maybe catapults straped to dinosaurs)


The above are only examples designed to help get a handle on the creative side. The thing about the T5 Makers is that they can produce combinations that don't work or are sub-optimal. The products created with a Maker needs creative input to interpret them.

And where do you fit air or naval (wet navy) units here?

Personally, I'd use artillery to represent air units (for the reasons I already stated), and probably would see the wet navy as motor mobility limited to seas (infantry for lesser ones; cavalry, as representing armor too, for capital ships and artillery for carriers, as their maximum power is on air complement).

 

[Condottiere]

Defining mobility is dependent on both technology level, and transport available, between organic and attached, protected and unprotected, and partial and fully.

 

[Reban]

I have not read T5, but I guess there are comandos too, and I'd see them as Infantry with some special capabilities. That's what I meant.

I agree protected trops must be somewhat depicted, but I see more as a sympol in the counter, so to say, that as a different kind of troops.

See, though, that in FFW they are not depicted, and all tropos are affected by hostile atmosphere or vacuum...

Commandos in the sense of Marine Commandos or army special forces?

If you mean Special Forces, this is easily represented by upgrading a BE to Elite status.

If Protected Forces are simply infantry with special capabilities why are they a separate branch?

It would be much simpler to have Protected Forces be a quality that is applies to a basic troop type like infantry to show they can function in extreme environment.

However I'm constrained by the rules as written. If Protected Forces are a Branch of the Army, or a troop type all of their own then I have to incorporate them in a way that makes the Maker OTU complient.

Again based on FFW, they keep having the mobility symbol (even while all units less Esalin divisions are grav lift, so this is clearly the standard). And even in IE!, where all ground units are grav lift they are marked as such...

Yes Lift would be standard for the tech levels of the forces in FFW, but what if I want to generate an army for a TL6 world? Standard forces would reflect the TL of the world generating the troops.

Having said that I'm not locked in to using Standard as a modifier in the process. Maybe it works or maybe its confusing. I'll refine it as we go.

My question is, would there be any difference maong those two movements? In a tactical game, it's off course important if the movement is under tracks or wheels, as tracks use to have better cross-county mobility, but in a strategic one, I have doubts about this be really relevant (and I think this level we're talking about fills into this last cdategory, though I might be wrong).

Good point. There's a perennial debate on wheels vs. tracks, but differentiating the two may help the creator add detail to his or her army. Wheeled formations suggest speed and range. Tracked formations suggest heavier forces and greater mobility.

If I reduced mobility to:

- Foot
- Ground Vehicle
- Grav Vehicle
- Army Aviation (air craft organic to the ground forces not the airforce)

Would that be a better system?

Sorry, I understood air units (so planes/helicopters), not air-mobile ones.

No problem. The type or flavor of the BE was Air Infantry which is an archaic name for air-mobile, air transportable and parachute infantry.

Yes, in grand strategy games, but not in lesser ones. If the only mobility given is grop, how do they move once they have droped?

See again that in FFW or IE!, drop (in this case orbital drop, or jump) troops are designed as a diferent kind of Infantry, but their mobility is lift (grav), as it's how they move once on ground.

I don't see jump troops as going to orbit to jump again in the same invasión as a usual occurence, as I don't see paratroopers to airdrop more tan one in the same campaign, so to say (and, BTW, I see air-mobility as lift troops, unlike paratroops that would be drop cabale infantry).

Jump troops are supposed to be a high TL analog to Paratroops. Paratroops jump out of aircraft, jump troops jump out of space craft.....

But of course paratroops rarely make large scale insertions by parachute today unless they can guarantee enemy air defenses are not a factor. I can see that for jump troops it would be the same. Unless planetary defenses are neutralized, no drop.

Paratroops have other methods of entering the theater: air landing, helicopter assault, and other more conventional method: road, rail and sea.

So my version; Drop troops can insert by the classic jump from orbit, or be carried from orbit to the surface and air-landed by small craft or specialized landingcraft or they can assault from orbit using specialized "dropships" which not only carry them from orbit but support them on the ground.

My vision is compatible with FFW and Invasion earth if Jump troops are considered "Lift" capable. That lift is provided by smallcraft.

I'd agree that they are probably only going to make one major descent per invasion. Although since Traveller tech makes getting to and from orbit easy I wouldn't rule out smaller scale movements.

I'm very much patterning this on the way airborne troops actually operate today. Their principle value is their speed of deployment.

My idea is that mobility is how you get into combat, but you're correct that its important to know what their mobility is once they get there.

For Drop infantry they move from orbit to surface and then they continue as foot infantry. Again I'll point to the RIBs from GT:GF who are jump infantry but organised as light infantry i.e. no vehicles.

Note that my ArmyMaker also generates Drop Cavalry; drop troops that bring their armored vehicles with them in the tradition of the Russian VDV with their BMD armored vehicles. These would also be Jump troops with Lift mobilty in FFW and IE terms.

And where do you fir air or naval (wet navy) units here?

personally, I'd use artillery to represent air units (for the reasons I already stated), and probably would see the wet navy as motor mobility limited to seas (infantry for lesser ones; cavalry, as representing armor too, for capital ships and artillery for carriers, as their maximum power is on air complement).

Well see my earlier posts where I'm looking for assistance on this.

The tables in JTAS 10 generate Battalion Equivalents for ground forces.

They do not seem to account for any Wet Navy or COACC forces so I've asked above: should I use a portion of those BEs to build them or, as I'd favor, generate raw COACC Squadrons and Wet Navy Units in a separate pool. A modified form of Kilemall's formula might be the way to do this by figuring the proportion available in addition to the Ground Forces.

 

[jec10]

I'm posting the TNE/Path of Tears system for those who might find it of interest/use: (particularly as it includes wet navy and space navy)

Step 1: On balkanised worlds, each nation averages 1% of popn in the armed forces. On non-balkanised worlds 0.25% of popn is in the armed forces. For worlds/nations above 1 billion popn multiply the total by 0.5

Step 2: Determine personnel in each service branch.
Wet Navy: base percentage of armed forces personnel in the wet navy is equal to world hydrographic code. Multiply that by 2 if a maritime power (has no border with another state, or part of its territory separated by sea) on a balkanised world. If a major power on a balkanised world multiply by 2 (incl the largest popn state and all other states with the same popn code). If a landlocked power multiply by 0.1 with all wet navy units being riverine. If popn code 9+ multiply by 0.2. Part of the wet navy troops may be marine infantry.
Air Force: The base percentage is 20% of total armed forces. If current TL is 4 or less reduce the percentage to zero. If current TL is 5 then multiply by 0.5. If current TL is 8+, multiply by 1.5. If the major power on a balkanised world, multiply by 1.5. If popn code 9+, multiply by 0.2.
Space Force: only if a starport is present. The base percentage depends on starport type as follows - A=10%, B=8%, C=6%, D=4%, E=2%, X=0. If current TL is 8 or less, reduce percentage to zero. If current TL is 9 or A percentage is multiplied by 0.5. If popn is 8, multiply by 0.2. If popn is 9, multiply by 0.03. If popn is 10+, multiply by 0.004.

All remaining personnel belong to the ground forces.

To be continued.