Canon bulk carriers?

[JAFARR]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr TeK:
...So while we have not seen to much of them, those huge ships HAVE to be there and in large numbers.

I'm not sure what they base those numbers on but I think they make about as much sense as the other extreme. That is that there are only about 2d6 high passengers per week at any port, the same number of middle passengers, and about twice as many low passengers, and some couple or three hunderd tons of freight at most. In which case there would be no merchants larger than a few hundred tons and very few of them to boot.

I think there is room for some common sense middle ground but nobody seems to be doing it. Instead I see numbers that have several multi-kiloton ships landing and taking off every minute.

/rant off

As for you suggestion for a thread to address the numbers and functions I think there have been a couple. Resurrect them if you can find them or by all means start another, it's a good topic. </font>[/QUOTE]It has always been my thought that the mega corps are not included in the numbers you generate for the trade system. What you generate is the leftovers from the "big boys' " dealings. If this were not so, there would not be any "big boys", they would all be broke just like most of the PC's are trying to avoid being. (Don't think I said that clearly.)

 

[JAFARR]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr TeK:
...So while we have not seen to much of them, those huge ships HAVE to be there and in large numbers.

I'm not sure what they base those numbers on but I think they make about as much sense as the other extreme. That is that there are only about 2d6 high passengers per week at any port, the same number of middle passengers, and about twice as many low passengers, and some couple or three hunderd tons of freight at most. In which case there would be no merchants larger than a few hundred tons and very few of them to boot.

I think there is room for some common sense middle ground but nobody seems to be doing it. Instead I see numbers that have several multi-kiloton ships landing and taking off every minute.

/rant off

As for you suggestion for a thread to address the numbers and functions I think there have been a couple. Resurrect them if you can find them or by all means start another, it's a good topic. </font>[/QUOTE]It has always been my thought that the mega corps are not included in the numbers you generate for the trade system. What you generate is the leftovers from the "big boys' " dealings. If this were not so, there would not be any "big boys", they would all be broke just like most of the PC's are trying to avoid being. (Don't think I said that clearly.)

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
It has always been my thought that the mega corps are not included in the numbers you generate for the trade system. What you generate is the leftovers from the "big boys' " dealings.

Andy,

That is strongly implied in LBB:3, flatly stated in LBB:7, and explicitly stated again in GT:FT.

The trade tables produce PC-scale results and not cargo, freight, or passengers for the 'Big-Boys'.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
It has always been my thought that the mega corps are not included in the numbers you generate for the trade system. What you generate is the leftovers from the "big boys' " dealings.

Andy,

That is strongly implied in LBB:3, flatly stated in LBB:7, and explicitly stated again in GT:FT.

The trade tables produce PC-scale results and not cargo, freight, or passengers for the 'Big-Boys'.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I'm not sure what they base those numbers on but I think they make about as much sense as the other extreme. That is that there are only about 2d6 high passengers per week at any port, the same number of middle passengers, and about twice as many low passengers, and some couple or three hunderd tons of freight at most. In which case there would be no merchants larger than a few hundred tons and very few of them to boot.

Think of that not as how much traffic the port has but as how much traffic it has that isn't already going by regularly sheduled freighter and liner. In other words, it's what's left over for the tramps once 90 or 99 or 99.9% has gone aboard other ships.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I'm not sure what they base those numbers on but I think they make about as much sense as the other extreme. That is that there are only about 2d6 high passengers per week at any port, the same number of middle passengers, and about twice as many low passengers, and some couple or three hunderd tons of freight at most. In which case there would be no merchants larger than a few hundred tons and very few of them to boot.

Think of that not as how much traffic the port has but as how much traffic it has that isn't already going by regularly sheduled freighter and liner. In other words, it's what's left over for the tramps once 90 or 99 or 99.9% has gone aboard other ships.


Hans

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
To add to Sigg's list, MT has a 'Common Imperial Transport' in the Rebellion Sourcebook. It's statted at:

- 20K dTons
- Maneuver 1
- Jump 3
- Cargo 145,800 kiloliters
- Only 20 high passage staterooms

Convert the cargo space to staterooms and you'll have a very big liner. Convert it to low berths and you'll a huge liner.

For non-MTers, that cargo translates to 10,800 dton. So, if you just convert the cargo to low passengers, you can carry 21,600 low passengers. Change that to 20,000 low and 800 dton cargo and you have the makings of a great start for a new colony.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
To add to Sigg's list, MT has a 'Common Imperial Transport' in the Rebellion Sourcebook. It's statted at:

- 20K dTons
- Maneuver 1
- Jump 3
- Cargo 145,800 kiloliters
- Only 20 high passage staterooms

Convert the cargo space to staterooms and you'll have a very big liner. Convert it to low berths and you'll a huge liner.

For non-MTers, that cargo translates to 10,800 dton. So, if you just convert the cargo to low passengers, you can carry 21,600 low passengers. Change that to 20,000 low and 800 dton cargo and you have the makings of a great start for a new colony.

 

[mike wightman]

There's also the 5000t Jump ship in CT S9 Fighting ships which has jump 6 and 1G.

It is equiped with special cables that allow it to extend its jump field around cargo, at the cost of jump performane.

For every 1000t of cargo in the mesh, the jump decreases by 1.

 

[mike wightman]

There's also the 5000t Jump ship in CT S9 Fighting ships which has jump 6 and 1G.

It is equiped with special cables that allow it to extend its jump field around cargo, at the cost of jump performane.

For every 1000t of cargo in the mesh, the jump decreases by 1.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
For non-MTers, that cargo translates to 10,800 dton. So, if you just convert the cargo to low passengers, you can carry 21,600 low passengers. Change that to 20,000 low and 800 dton cargo and you have the makings of a great start for a new colony.

800 dT of cargo for 20,000 settlers sounds like a recipe for a failed colony to me. I don't know how much it should be, exactly, but more than 500 liters per person. The typical Aslan ihatei transport ship in Rebellion sourcebook had 1.5 dT worth of equipment per settler.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
For non-MTers, that cargo translates to 10,800 dton. So, if you just convert the cargo to low passengers, you can carry 21,600 low passengers. Change that to 20,000 low and 800 dton cargo and you have the makings of a great start for a new colony.

800 dT of cargo for 20,000 settlers sounds like a recipe for a failed colony to me. I don't know how much it should be, exactly, but more than 500 liters per person. The typical Aslan ihatei transport ship in Rebellion sourcebook had 1.5 dT worth of equipment per settler.


Hans

 

[daryen]

In my defense, I was assuming there would be other ships that would carry other needed cargo. I guess my listing would work better as an evacuation ship, not a colony ship.

Going with the 4 dton per person, that would knock the capacity of the ship down to 2400 colonists. (2400 low and 9600 dton cargo.)

Using 1.5 dton per person, gives 5400 colonists in low and 8100 dton cargo.

 

[daryen]

In my defense, I was assuming there would be other ships that would carry other needed cargo. I guess my listing would work better as an evacuation ship, not a colony ship.

Going with the 4 dton per person, that would knock the capacity of the ship down to 2400 colonists. (2400 low and 9600 dton cargo.)

Using 1.5 dton per person, gives 5400 colonists in low and 8100 dton cargo.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Mr TeK:
I don't know about plans, but per the quick trade system on The Sharakkannik Collection, (sorry, I have to look up the web address). they list single systems with 1 million plus tons cargo per week, (Mora.) at 1259 dt as the biggest carrier, that is almost 800 ships a WEEK passing through the port.

They also get 250,000 passengers a week, so that works out to 250 ships just to carry passengers, not counting local traffic.

This does not account for traffic transiting the system either.

Actually, I assumed it considered all traffic, transit included.

And I believe it's still low numbers for many people's conceptions of the Imperium. 1000 ships per week is 1 ship arriving and 1 ship departing every 10 minutes, all the time. That's not too bad on an interstellar scale.

Granted, that's still about 1500 passengers passing through the starport per hour. But Mora can afford it.

Edit Also, I have scripts to figure out what a possible mix of ships could be to fit the traffic numbers. I assumed passenger ships run up to 125,000 tons (unlikely, but there it is) and cargo ships run up to 76,000 tons (as I said, this is stuff I made up long ago. I would do things a little differently today).

For example, for 250,000 people and 1 million tons, the primitive algorithm I use determines this load-out:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Landing : 122 ships (101000 t)
600t : 30
800t : 45
1000t : 47
Passengers: 5600
Freight : 16500 t

Orbiting : 253 ships (5396000 t)
3000t : 49
3500t : 48
8000t : 42
10,500t : 34
26,000t : 27
31,500t : 22
76,000t : 18
125,000t: 13
Passengers: 244400
Freight : 985000 t

Downport Components:
Airstrips : 15 MCr 0.15
Parkbays : 21 MCr 2.1
Fuel (T) : 40400 MCr 404
Repair (T/y): 10100 MCr 1010
Build (T/y): 12200 MCr 1220

Shuttles (MCr 16740): 180 x 100t, 36 x 1000t

Orbital Components:
Shuttleports: 108 MCr 1080
Berths (T) : 539600 MCr 539600
Fuel (T) :1349000 MCr 134900
Repair (T/y):5396000 MCr 539600
Build (T/y): 539600 MCr 539600</pre>[/QUOTE]Edit Edit Also x 2, the numbers for most other worlds are much smaller. Rhylanor 'only' sees 50,000 people per week, while Inthe has about 3000 per week.

What I like best about the system is the formula itself. The numbers I've twiddled back and forth for years, scaling up or down as the mood hits me.

IMTU. YMMV. Etc.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Mr TeK:
I don't know about plans, but per the quick trade system on The Sharakkannik Collection, (sorry, I have to look up the web address). they list single systems with 1 million plus tons cargo per week, (Mora.) at 1259 dt as the biggest carrier, that is almost 800 ships a WEEK passing through the port.

They also get 250,000 passengers a week, so that works out to 250 ships just to carry passengers, not counting local traffic.

This does not account for traffic transiting the system either.

Actually, I assumed it considered all traffic, transit included.

And I believe it's still low numbers for many people's conceptions of the Imperium. 1000 ships per week is 1 ship arriving and 1 ship departing every 10 minutes, all the time. That's not too bad on an interstellar scale.

Granted, that's still about 1500 passengers passing through the starport per hour. But Mora can afford it.

Edit Also, I have scripts to figure out what a possible mix of ships could be to fit the traffic numbers. I assumed passenger ships run up to 125,000 tons (unlikely, but there it is) and cargo ships run up to 76,000 tons (as I said, this is stuff I made up long ago. I would do things a little differently today).

For example, for 250,000 people and 1 million tons, the primitive algorithm I use determines this load-out:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Landing : 122 ships (101000 t)
600t : 30
800t : 45
1000t : 47
Passengers: 5600
Freight : 16500 t

Orbiting : 253 ships (5396000 t)
3000t : 49
3500t : 48
8000t : 42
10,500t : 34
26,000t : 27
31,500t : 22
76,000t : 18
125,000t: 13
Passengers: 244400
Freight : 985000 t

Downport Components:
Airstrips : 15 MCr 0.15
Parkbays : 21 MCr 2.1
Fuel (T) : 40400 MCr 404
Repair (T/y): 10100 MCr 1010
Build (T/y): 12200 MCr 1220

Shuttles (MCr 16740): 180 x 100t, 36 x 1000t

Orbital Components:
Shuttleports: 108 MCr 1080
Berths (T) : 539600 MCr 539600
Fuel (T) :1349000 MCr 134900
Repair (T/y):5396000 MCr 539600
Build (T/y): 539600 MCr 539600</pre>[/QUOTE]Edit Edit Also x 2, the numbers for most other worlds are much smaller. Rhylanor 'only' sees 50,000 people per week, while Inthe has about 3000 per week.

What I like best about the system is the formula itself. The numbers I've twiddled back and forth for years, scaling up or down as the mood hits me.

IMTU. YMMV. Etc.

 

[robject]

If I were to take a stab at bulk carriers today, I'd have large freighters top out under 100kt. 75kt might be okay for a bulk cargo carrier.

But for passenger carriers, I don't see vessels being larger than 10kt. I'd probably look at the biggest passenger vessels here on Earth and set that as the limit. There's just something about loading and unloading so many people. The coordination and/or logistics must be staggering. Cargo would be bad enough (though probably super-modularized).

Edit The QE2 has room for nearly 3000 passengers + crew. Maybe that's a realistic max for people-capacity.

What do you think?

 

[robject]

If I were to take a stab at bulk carriers today, I'd have large freighters top out under 100kt. 75kt might be okay for a bulk cargo carrier.

But for passenger carriers, I don't see vessels being larger than 10kt. I'd probably look at the biggest passenger vessels here on Earth and set that as the limit. There's just something about loading and unloading so many people. The coordination and/or logistics must be staggering. Cargo would be bad enough (though probably super-modularized).

Edit The QE2 has room for nearly 3000 passengers + crew. Maybe that's a realistic max for people-capacity.

What do you think?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Even at that, robject, you have problems with sanitation among that many people. If they are all crew, its a little different, but passengers bring crap onboard and spread it around.

You can argue that a TL10+ spacegoing society will have conquered those problems, but I'm more of a pessimist where human (excuse me, sophont) nature is concerned.

Also, that many people might be able to stand each other for a week when they have blue skies to look at, a pool to swim in, and ports to visit. Locked in a tin can in J-space, staring at each other's ugly mugs for a week (+/-10%!)?

(Also, can you imagine by how much you would have to increase your stateroom size to keep the normal deckplans, but accomodate as many eating establishments as there are on a modern cruise ship?! )

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Even at that, robject, you have problems with sanitation among that many people. If they are all crew, its a little different, but passengers bring crap onboard and spread it around.

You can argue that a TL10+ spacegoing society will have conquered those problems, but I'm more of a pessimist where human (excuse me, sophont) nature is concerned.

Also, that many people might be able to stand each other for a week when they have blue skies to look at, a pool to swim in, and ports to visit. Locked in a tin can in J-space, staring at each other's ugly mugs for a week (+/-10%!)?

(Also, can you imagine by how much you would have to increase your stateroom size to keep the normal deckplans, but accomodate as many eating establishments as there are on a modern cruise ship?! )