Characters & Skills & Tech Level

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:

The little problem I see is this. Let's say the character, TL 8, joins the Merchants and gets Medical-1. By your rule, he's a TL 9 character. But, the training he got at the hands of a doctor from a TL 11 world, would train him to TL 11 standards, yes?

Hmmm...but then we're back to keeping track of TL for every skill, and I want to get away from that.

As I see it: He's a TL9 character taught by a TL11 doctor. He understands some, but not all of what he was taught, and can only function as a TL9 medic. However, as his Personal TL continues to increase over time, he will begin to figure out what the old guy was talking about as he continues to research and practise to the best of his current ability. By the time he reaches TL11, he will be fully conversant with everything he was taught and will finally have the knowledge and experience to put it all into practice.
If he continues to progress to TL12, he may well be able to show his old tutor a thing or two.

Note that this is not the same as a skill increase, though. As a Medic-1, he will still only learn paramedic skills. (however, a TL12 paramedic may have more life-saving skill than a TL4 doctor, as we have seen.)

Think of this: An Engineer nearing retirement today (TL7/8) may have graduated at TL6 (1958)
However, he is not limited to TL6 technology - his Personal TL has increased as he has aged, he has kept abreast of the latest developments and his Engineer-3 status has now been uprated to TL8.
The technician he went to school with (who never graduated) will now be a TL8 Engineer-2, even though he left college as a TL6 Engineer-2.
Does that make sense?

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Although I like that concept, I think that needs a little work.

What about a scientist watching aborigines on a low tech planet for a long time. They certainly wouldn't decrease in personal TL. I'm sure they'd stay the same.

Also, we have to consider something else. A character form a TL 4 world is recurited by a mercenary unit, a-la Hammer's Slammers, outfitted to TL 12.

The recruit spends 2 terms with the mercenaries. He's only TL 6 when he gets out? I mean, he learned everything he knows at TL 11! So, that doesn't compute for me.

And...

Most people in Traveller learn their skills post-18 years old. I think THIS is where we should look for inspiration on the character's personal TL. The character in the above mercenary example will jump from a TL 4 character to a TL 11 one. "I'm home, ma! Know what a plasma gun is?"

The concept's fine, maybe I just didn't explain it enough.

PTL does not reduce by studying natives.

If your mercenary recruit has Rifle-1, just how much of a learning curve is there between TL4 and TL11? It's still 'point this bit over there and squeeze this bit'.
Not sure he'd know the theory behind the laser, but then neither would the TL11 grunt!

Some skills don't really alter with TL. Even a TL1 recruit could figure out that this strange device works a bit like a crossbow, so he can still handle a TL11 rifle even though his PTL is nowhere near TL11.

As for the TL9 Admin-1, (when was the typewriter invented?) again, the concepts of 'write this and file it there' do not necessarily require an advanced technological understanding. Anyone with a basic understanding of a typewriter (or even of a printing press, maybe) could probably get the hang of a computer within a single 4 year block. He couldn't BUILD one (Electronics is very TL dependent) but he ought to be able to use one.

So, again, his PTL remains firm, but maybe doesn't need to be very high in order to use some aspects of high technology or to hold down certain low grade jobs in a high tech society.

 

[Icosahedron]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
Although I like that concept, I think that needs a little work.

What about a scientist watching aborigines on a low tech planet for a long time. They certainly wouldn't decrease in personal TL. I'm sure they'd stay the same.

Also, we have to consider something else. A character form a TL 4 world is recurited by a mercenary unit, a-la Hammer's Slammers, outfitted to TL 12.

The recruit spends 2 terms with the mercenaries. He's only TL 6 when he gets out? I mean, he learned everything he knows at TL 11! So, that doesn't compute for me.

And...

Most people in Traveller learn their skills post-18 years old. I think THIS is where we should look for inspiration on the character's personal TL. The character in the above mercenary example will jump from a TL 4 character to a TL 11 one. "I'm home, ma! Know what a plasma gun is?"

The concept's fine, maybe I just didn't explain it enough.

PTL does not reduce by studying natives.

If your mercenary recruit has Rifle-1, just how much of a learning curve is there between TL4 and TL11? It's still 'point this bit over there and squeeze this bit'.
Not sure he'd know the theory behind the laser, but then neither would the TL11 grunt!

Some skills don't really alter with TL. Even a TL1 recruit could figure out that this strange device works a bit like a crossbow, so he can still handle a TL11 rifle even though his PTL is nowhere near TL11.

As for the TL9 Admin-1, (when was the typewriter invented?) again, the concepts of 'write this and file it there' do not necessarily require an advanced technological understanding. Anyone with a basic understanding of a typewriter (or even of a printing press, maybe) could probably get the hang of a computer within a single 4 year block. He couldn't BUILD one (Electronics is very TL dependent) but he ought to be able to use one.

So, again, his PTL remains firm, but maybe doesn't need to be very high in order to use some aspects of high technology or to hold down certain low grade jobs in a high tech society.

 

[Ishmael]

it seems to me that if the tech of the skill used in a task should be the lesser of charater's skill tech and the tech level of the tools used.

hi tech mechanic can't fix hi tech stuff if all he has are lo tech wrenches.

this goes back to my position that hi tech is easier to use but harder to fix
lo tech is harder to use but easier to fix

 

[Ishmael]

it seems to me that if the tech of the skill used in a task should be the lesser of charater's skill tech and the tech level of the tools used.

hi tech mechanic can't fix hi tech stuff if all he has are lo tech wrenches.

this goes back to my position that hi tech is easier to use but harder to fix
lo tech is harder to use but easier to fix

 

[atpollard]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
But, I don't think that a TL 4 Med-1 student and a TL 11 Med-1 student read the same text book. One reads about horrible methods of abortion, and the other reads about the "day after" pill.

It's not unlike reading a car manual from 1900 and a car manual from 2010. They're going to talk about *some* of the same things, but there's going to be a lot of things that are different too.

If a TL 4 world and a TL 11 world and a TL 14 world all have a Medical School and access to a starport, then they will all order their ‘textbooks’ from the same TL 15+ publisher. One will order the books in printed format, one will order the books in electronic format and one will order the book in interactive holographic format. The text book will discuss both “horrible methods of abortion” and “the day after pill” since all three Medical schools know that their graduates may be forced to render treatment on a variety of worlds at a variety of TLs (typical ship’s doctor).

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
Third world doctors don't drop to 1860s medical knowledge merely because they go to an area that's roughly TL4.

Tbeard1999 made a good analogy on this issue, Traveller TL is about visiting “third world” countries, it is not about “time travel”. Knowledge is far more universally available than Technology. A TL 2 character living next to a class D starport probably does not believe that the world is flat and if you sail too close to the edge, you will fall off – He just lives in a community where everything you need must be made by hand because they cannot afford a power grid to allow the use of machinery (which they also cannot afford in large quantities).

The assumption of a “personal TL” which determines what you understand and how your skill works will restrict the Imperial Navy to recruiting from only TL 15 worlds for it’s primary fleet. The assumption of a universal body of knowledge throughout the Imperium means that a character growing up on a high-population, TL 8, Indistrial world can learn Engineering-1 from a data tape purchased at the Starport and join the crew of a TL 13 Free Trader. Which do you prefer for YTU?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
If a TL 4 world and a TL 11 world and a TL 14 world all have a Medical School and access to a starport, then they will all order their ‘textbooks’ from the same TL 15+ publisher.

You're forgetting economics. The TL 4 world would do this if it could afford it (or if it was deemed so important that it would be done, damned the costs).

Remember, space travel in Traveller is very expensive in both time and money.

And, don't forget Frank Chadwick's local currency table that pops up for trade in articles of the JTAS, Trillion Credit Squadron, etc.

It might be too expensive for the TL 4 world to import medical books with TL 14 information in them. And, the TL 14 medical books might refer to equipment/drugs that just isn't available on the TL 4 world, making the book useless in some parts.

I'm not saying this is the case in every TL 4 / TL 14 relationship, but it easily could be this way given what we know of Traveller economics and culture.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by atpollard:
If a TL 4 world and a TL 11 world and a TL 14 world all have a Medical School and access to a starport, then they will all order their ‘textbooks’ from the same TL 15+ publisher.

You're forgetting economics. The TL 4 world would do this if it could afford it (or if it was deemed so important that it would be done, damned the costs).

Remember, space travel in Traveller is very expensive in both time and money.

And, don't forget Frank Chadwick's local currency table that pops up for trade in articles of the JTAS, Trillion Credit Squadron, etc.

It might be too expensive for the TL 4 world to import medical books with TL 14 information in them. And, the TL 14 medical books might refer to equipment/drugs that just isn't available on the TL 4 world, making the book useless in some parts.

I'm not saying this is the case in every TL 4 / TL 14 relationship, but it easily could be this way given what we know of Traveller economics and culture.

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
If a TL 4 world and a TL 11 world and a TL 14 world all have a Medical School and access to a starport, then they will all order their ‘textbooks’ from the same TL 15+ publisher.

You're forgetting economics. The TL 4 world would do this if it could afford it (or if it was deemed so important that it would be done, damned the costs).

Remember, space travel in Traveller is very expensive in both time and money.

And, don't forget Frank Chadwick's local currency table that pops up for trade in articles of the JTAS, Trillion Credit Squadron, etc.

It might be too expensive for the TL 4 world to import medical books with TL 14 information in them. And, the TL 14 medical books might refer to equipment/drugs that just isn't available on the TL 4 world, making the book useless in some parts.

I'm not saying this is the case in every TL 4 / TL 14 relationship, but it easily could be this way given what we know of Traveller economics and culture. </font>[/QUOTE]The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded. And assuming that the Imperium has copyright laws similar to 21st century Earth, a great deal of information would be in the public domain, and therefore very inexpensive to produce.

So it could well be that in the Imperium, TL13- medical reference books (probably databases by TL9+) would be available for little more than the cost of storage and shipment.

One guy with a PC and a decent laser printer could open a book store on the starport of a TL4 world and produce thousands of books. Consider that a single DVD can hold 25-30 gigs of data. If that data is stored as text only, the DVD can hold 69 million pages of information (or >2 million 300 page books). If the information is held largely in electronic form (quite likely at TL9+ for vocational knowledge like medical information), then the *data* could be stored at a similar density.

If you scan every page in black and white, the DVD can hold about 833 books. If you scan every page in full color, the DVD could hold 83 books.

I reckon that you could transport as many as 96,000 DVDs (packed in jewel cases) in 1 displacement ton (less the displacement of the packing crate and packing materials). At cr1000/ton, that's not real expensive.

Even books wouldn't be prohibitive to ship. At ~.05 cubic feet volume per book (10" x 8" x 1"), you could transport ~10,000 books (less packing crates and packing material) in a ton.

In fact, if the Imperium tries to improve the lot of primitive worlds (and medical tech would be one of the first areas they'd focus on), there would probably be specialized medical manuals designed to produce the greatest medical improvement in primitive cultures. Those manuals would include substitutes for high tech drugs and focus on what was feasible, given the tech limitations of that world. A medical text for TL4 worlds, would probably focus on the role of germs in spreading diseases and cover sanitation techniques that are practicable for TL4. It might give recipes and instructions on synthesizing early antibiotics (if that is feasible with TL4 tech) or other medicines.

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
If a TL 4 world and a TL 11 world and a TL 14 world all have a Medical School and access to a starport, then they will all order their ‘textbooks’ from the same TL 15+ publisher.

You're forgetting economics. The TL 4 world would do this if it could afford it (or if it was deemed so important that it would be done, damned the costs).

Remember, space travel in Traveller is very expensive in both time and money.

And, don't forget Frank Chadwick's local currency table that pops up for trade in articles of the JTAS, Trillion Credit Squadron, etc.

It might be too expensive for the TL 4 world to import medical books with TL 14 information in them. And, the TL 14 medical books might refer to equipment/drugs that just isn't available on the TL 4 world, making the book useless in some parts.

I'm not saying this is the case in every TL 4 / TL 14 relationship, but it easily could be this way given what we know of Traveller economics and culture. </font>[/QUOTE]The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded. And assuming that the Imperium has copyright laws similar to 21st century Earth, a great deal of information would be in the public domain, and therefore very inexpensive to produce.

So it could well be that in the Imperium, TL13- medical reference books (probably databases by TL9+) would be available for little more than the cost of storage and shipment.

One guy with a PC and a decent laser printer could open a book store on the starport of a TL4 world and produce thousands of books. Consider that a single DVD can hold 25-30 gigs of data. If that data is stored as text only, the DVD can hold 69 million pages of information (or >2 million 300 page books). If the information is held largely in electronic form (quite likely at TL9+ for vocational knowledge like medical information), then the *data* could be stored at a similar density.

If you scan every page in black and white, the DVD can hold about 833 books. If you scan every page in full color, the DVD could hold 83 books.

I reckon that you could transport as many as 96,000 DVDs (packed in jewel cases) in 1 displacement ton (less the displacement of the packing crate and packing materials). At cr1000/ton, that's not real expensive.

Even books wouldn't be prohibitive to ship. At ~.05 cubic feet volume per book (10" x 8" x 1"), you could transport ~10,000 books (less packing crates and packing material) in a ton.

In fact, if the Imperium tries to improve the lot of primitive worlds (and medical tech would be one of the first areas they'd focus on), there would probably be specialized medical manuals designed to produce the greatest medical improvement in primitive cultures. Those manuals would include substitutes for high tech drugs and focus on what was feasible, given the tech limitations of that world. A medical text for TL4 worlds, would probably focus on the role of germs in spreading diseases and cover sanitation techniques that are practicable for TL4. It might give recipes and instructions on synthesizing early antibiotics (if that is feasible with TL4 tech) or other medicines.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded.

You make a very fair point. But, also don't forget that books aren't sold on weight. They're sold on the information they contain. A text book is more expensive than a novel, and a medical text book is more expensive than a history text book.

My point: economics might still be an issue, especially when you compare currency from a TL 4 world to that of a TL 14 world.

The buying power of a credit on a TL 14 world will be close to the buying power of the Imperial credit. The buying power of a TL 4 credit might be more like pesos vs. the US dollar.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded.

You make a very fair point. But, also don't forget that books aren't sold on weight. They're sold on the information they contain. A text book is more expensive than a novel, and a medical text book is more expensive than a history text book.

My point: economics might still be an issue, especially when you compare currency from a TL 4 world to that of a TL 14 world.

The buying power of a credit on a TL 14 world will be close to the buying power of the Imperial credit. The buying power of a TL 4 credit might be more like pesos vs. the US dollar.

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tbeard1999:
The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded.

You make a very fair point. But, also don't forget that books aren't sold on weight. They're sold on the information they contain. A text book is more expensive than a novel, and a medical text book is more expensive than a history text book.

My point: economics might still be an issue, especially when you compare currency from a TL 4 world to that of a TL 14 world.

The buying power of a credit on a TL 14 world will be close to the buying power of the Imperial credit. The buying power of a TL 4 credit might be more like pesos vs. the US dollar. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I addressed that in my post, but I probably should have been more explicit.

You are correct; a book costs more than its shipping cost. However, your argument seemed to rest on travel costs so that's what I focused on.

I don't know that much about book publishing economics, but I do know that manufacturing and distribution costs comprise a significant proportion of the cost of a book.

Royalties to the author may be significant -- but maybe not. A sci-fi author I once corresponded with claimed that he'd lose money if he sent a letter to every buyer of his books -- the cost of the postage stamp exceeded his royalty for the book sold.

And of course, the largest markup is the retailer's markup. My guess is that is about 40%.

That said, a typical legal treatise probably averages about $300-500US these days. These are huge (often 1000+ pages), information-dense tomes printed in very small quantities in durable bindings. These texts contain comprehensive treatments of an entire area of law (contracts, income tax law, medical malpractice, etc.)

Medical texts probably cost about the same and offer the same kind of coverage (all about treating a certain class of disease).

These books are expensive for several reasons. First, they are printed in very small quantities, which greatly increases the per book cost. Second, (I think) the authors get larger royalties due to the fact that the information is designed to be used by highly paid professionals.

Assuming 1 Traveller credit is equal to $1US in 1978, this translates to a cost of ~cr100-170 per book.

But some of these costs can be minimized. Production costs are what they are. While it's possible to setup a book printing operation on a primitive planet, book printing economics probably won't change (though some modest savings in shipping might be realized).

However, electronic books have virtually no manufacturing costs. They only require a reader.

I suspect that there would be a huge market for high-tech, cheap, solar powered electronic book readers designed for use on low tech worlds. Such readers could eliminate the manufacturing cost of books, since a single reader could access many terabytes of electronic information. Given that early models of these gadgets are available at TL 8 for about $500, I imagine they'll be given away with Happy Meals by late TL9.

There's plenty of precedent for this. On Earth, for instance, cell phones are common even in the most backward parts of Africa (surely TL4-). Ironically, cellphones are *better* suited than older wire telephones because these areas can't afford the expensive infrastructure.

And a lot can be done to eliminate author royalties.

Author royalties, would be nonexistent for information in the public domain. Assuming the Imperium has similar copyright laws, anything published over ~100 years ago would be in the public domain. Anyone can reprint it and no royalties are due. That means that there could be millions of TL13- medical texts available copyright-free.

(There's also the fact that ideas are not copyrightable, only their expression). So my particular description of a treatment for male pattern baldness is protected. The treatment itself, however, is not, so you could describe it without violating my copyright. (It might be protected by a process patent, but maybe not. And the duration on that is far shorter than copyright protection.)

So I don't think that *useable* information will be terribly costly for any society that interacts with the Imperium. A TL4 world will be *far* more interested in TL5-7 medicine than in expensive, cutting edge TL15 medical techniques.

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tbeard1999:
The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded.

You make a very fair point. But, also don't forget that books aren't sold on weight. They're sold on the information they contain. A text book is more expensive than a novel, and a medical text book is more expensive than a history text book.

My point: economics might still be an issue, especially when you compare currency from a TL 4 world to that of a TL 14 world.

The buying power of a credit on a TL 14 world will be close to the buying power of the Imperial credit. The buying power of a TL 4 credit might be more like pesos vs. the US dollar. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I addressed that in my post, but I probably should have been more explicit.

You are correct; a book costs more than its shipping cost. However, your argument seemed to rest on travel costs so that's what I focused on.

I don't know that much about book publishing economics, but I do know that manufacturing and distribution costs comprise a significant proportion of the cost of a book.

Royalties to the author may be significant -- but maybe not. A sci-fi author I once corresponded with claimed that he'd lose money if he sent a letter to every buyer of his books -- the cost of the postage stamp exceeded his royalty for the book sold.

And of course, the largest markup is the retailer's markup. My guess is that is about 40%.

That said, a typical legal treatise probably averages about $300-500US these days. These are huge (often 1000+ pages), information-dense tomes printed in very small quantities in durable bindings. These texts contain comprehensive treatments of an entire area of law (contracts, income tax law, medical malpractice, etc.)

Medical texts probably cost about the same and offer the same kind of coverage (all about treating a certain class of disease).

These books are expensive for several reasons. First, they are printed in very small quantities, which greatly increases the per book cost. Second, (I think) the authors get larger royalties due to the fact that the information is designed to be used by highly paid professionals.

Assuming 1 Traveller credit is equal to $1US in 1978, this translates to a cost of ~cr100-170 per book.

But some of these costs can be minimized. Production costs are what they are. While it's possible to setup a book printing operation on a primitive planet, book printing economics probably won't change (though some modest savings in shipping might be realized).

However, electronic books have virtually no manufacturing costs. They only require a reader.

I suspect that there would be a huge market for high-tech, cheap, solar powered electronic book readers designed for use on low tech worlds. Such readers could eliminate the manufacturing cost of books, since a single reader could access many terabytes of electronic information. Given that early models of these gadgets are available at TL 8 for about $500, I imagine they'll be given away with Happy Meals by late TL9.

There's plenty of precedent for this. On Earth, for instance, cell phones are common even in the most backward parts of Africa (surely TL4-). Ironically, cellphones are *better* suited than older wire telephones because these areas can't afford the expensive infrastructure.

And a lot can be done to eliminate author royalties.

Author royalties, would be nonexistent for information in the public domain. Assuming the Imperium has similar copyright laws, anything published over ~100 years ago would be in the public domain. Anyone can reprint it and no royalties are due. That means that there could be millions of TL13- medical texts available copyright-free.

(There's also the fact that ideas are not copyrightable, only their expression). So my particular description of a treatment for male pattern baldness is protected. The treatment itself, however, is not, so you could describe it without violating my copyright. (It might be protected by a process patent, but maybe not. And the duration on that is far shorter than copyright protection.)

So I don't think that *useable* information will be terribly costly for any society that interacts with the Imperium. A TL4 world will be *far* more interested in TL5-7 medicine than in expensive, cutting edge TL15 medical techniques.

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tbeard1999:
The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded.

You make a very fair point. But, also don't forget that books aren't sold on weight. They're sold on the information they contain. A text book is more expensive than a novel, and a medical text book is more expensive than a history text book.

My point: economics might still be an issue, especially when you compare currency from a TL 4 world to that of a TL 14 world.

The buying power of a credit on a TL 14 world will be close to the buying power of the Imperial credit. The buying power of a TL 4 credit might be more like pesos vs. the US dollar. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh one other point. We *do* trade with Mexico, so obviously the low value of their currency isn't an absolute barrier. A TL4- world will probably have nothing to trade to a TL6+ world in the technological or knowledge-based realms. However, there are several things that they *can* trade to higher tech worlds (shipping costs permitting):

1. Enjoyment (or tourism). "Come to Crichton's World and hunt dinosaurs like your ancestors did..." "On Aphrodite Nova you'll learn all 1,000 ways to make love..." "Scale the majestic heights of Mount Olympus on Craggia". Etc. Bored, affluent folks will always be looking for more exotic experiences and will pay for the privilege. CT even acknowledges this by having a starship devoted to Safaris. The money paid by tourists will then be available to purchase off-world goods.

2. Raw materials. Anything that the low tech world has that the higher tech world needs. If, of course, it's cheaper for the high tech world than manufacturing (considering the cost of shipping). The high cost of Traveller shipping means that the raw materials must be relatively valuable. I doubt that grain would be shipped, for instance. Plants to make pharmaceuticals, unusual gems (that cannot be manufactured), etc. In MTU, for instance, petrochemicals are routinely shipped from low tech worlds to high tech worlds for use as fuel and later to make plastics. (I assume a huge bulk tanker could probably get costs down to cr200/ton. A ton can hold about 40 barrels of oil, so it really isn't as cost-prohibitive to ship as it might seem).

3. Labor. By TL9, I suspect that manufacturing on low tech (and cheap) worlds will no longer be economically attractive. The reason is that robotic manufacturing technology is becoming ever more capable and inexpensive. Also, high shipping costs reduce the attractiveness of manufacturing in low tech places. And as many US firms have discovered, worker productivity is typically quite low, compared with more expensive US workers. To say nothing of extra costs imposed due to corruption, inferior infrastructure, civil war, crude legal systems, etc.

However, the value of personal *services* will be unaffected by manufacturing advances. In fact, in a material paradise promised by nanotech gurus, personal services and real estate may be the *only* things that really have value.

Low tech worlds might have cultures that turn out particularly capable butlers, for instance. Or soldiers (see the Ghurkas, for instance). Or sexual partners for that matter. This can even be an adventure hook. The promiscuity of the "primitive" Tahitian women delighted Captain Bligh's crew and was a major factor in the mutiny on HMS Bounty. Imagine the PCs getting caught up in a mutiny on a ship they're travelling on...

Any of these things will produce wealth that the low tech worlds can use to buy high tech goods. And note that this is true whether the exchange system is currency or barter.

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tbeard1999:
The fact that travel is expensive in Traveller would probably mean that information (which takes up little space) would be one of the primary goods traded.

You make a very fair point. But, also don't forget that books aren't sold on weight. They're sold on the information they contain. A text book is more expensive than a novel, and a medical text book is more expensive than a history text book.

My point: economics might still be an issue, especially when you compare currency from a TL 4 world to that of a TL 14 world.

The buying power of a credit on a TL 14 world will be close to the buying power of the Imperial credit. The buying power of a TL 4 credit might be more like pesos vs. the US dollar. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh one other point. We *do* trade with Mexico, so obviously the low value of their currency isn't an absolute barrier. A TL4- world will probably have nothing to trade to a TL6+ world in the technological or knowledge-based realms. However, there are several things that they *can* trade to higher tech worlds (shipping costs permitting):

1. Enjoyment (or tourism). "Come to Crichton's World and hunt dinosaurs like your ancestors did..." "On Aphrodite Nova you'll learn all 1,000 ways to make love..." "Scale the majestic heights of Mount Olympus on Craggia". Etc. Bored, affluent folks will always be looking for more exotic experiences and will pay for the privilege. CT even acknowledges this by having a starship devoted to Safaris. The money paid by tourists will then be available to purchase off-world goods.

2. Raw materials. Anything that the low tech world has that the higher tech world needs. If, of course, it's cheaper for the high tech world than manufacturing (considering the cost of shipping). The high cost of Traveller shipping means that the raw materials must be relatively valuable. I doubt that grain would be shipped, for instance. Plants to make pharmaceuticals, unusual gems (that cannot be manufactured), etc. In MTU, for instance, petrochemicals are routinely shipped from low tech worlds to high tech worlds for use as fuel and later to make plastics. (I assume a huge bulk tanker could probably get costs down to cr200/ton. A ton can hold about 40 barrels of oil, so it really isn't as cost-prohibitive to ship as it might seem).

3. Labor. By TL9, I suspect that manufacturing on low tech (and cheap) worlds will no longer be economically attractive. The reason is that robotic manufacturing technology is becoming ever more capable and inexpensive. Also, high shipping costs reduce the attractiveness of manufacturing in low tech places. And as many US firms have discovered, worker productivity is typically quite low, compared with more expensive US workers. To say nothing of extra costs imposed due to corruption, inferior infrastructure, civil war, crude legal systems, etc.

However, the value of personal *services* will be unaffected by manufacturing advances. In fact, in a material paradise promised by nanotech gurus, personal services and real estate may be the *only* things that really have value.

Low tech worlds might have cultures that turn out particularly capable butlers, for instance. Or soldiers (see the Ghurkas, for instance). Or sexual partners for that matter. This can even be an adventure hook. The promiscuity of the "primitive" Tahitian women delighted Captain Bligh's crew and was a major factor in the mutiny on HMS Bounty. Imagine the PCs getting caught up in a mutiny on a ship they're travelling on...

Any of these things will produce wealth that the low tech worlds can use to buy high tech goods. And note that this is true whether the exchange system is currency or barter.

 

[tbeard1999]

Yet another comment.

At first glance, it might seem that low tech worlds would be very vulnerable to being "bought up" by high tech worlds. Especially in the case of worlds that have significant natural wealth.

However, I'd submit that colonialism won't be anywhere near as common as it was in the 16th-19th centuries. The reason is that colonialism simply does not pay. In other words, the costs of occupying and administering a colony is seldom offset by whatever wealth is extracted from it. Europe finally figured this out in the 20th century. Indeed, the precipitous decline in post-colonial living standards in former colonial possessions is strong evidence that the colonies profited more than the imperial power. (Of course, a lot of the decline was probably due to widespread embracing of Marxist principles, which seem *designed* to guarantee starvation).

A few notable exceptions *might* be situations where the colonial power utterly rapes the colony and withdraws (Belgium in the Congo). But even there, maybe not.

As for colonizing areas with serious material wealth, the modern Arab world is an argument against that happening. The colonial powers were aware of the staggering oil wealth, yet they still ended their colonial regimes.

At the end of the day, it just seems to be cheaper to buy stuff than to try to take it. Makes sense, really. It's always easier to destroy something than to make it. And insurgencies could make extraction of natural resources VERY expensive by (a) destroying the resources or interfering with the extraction of them; and (b) increasing the costs of garrisons and combat operations. Modern military operations are *very* expensive. Add to that the expense of maintaining a logistical pipeline over one or more parsecs, and it seems clear to me that colonialism is a losing proposition in economic terms.

At very least, it seems to be much cheaper to let the local warlords extract the resources from their people, then buy the resources from the warlords. That's what the industrialized nations are doing with Middle Eastern oil today.

Of course, governments *could* miscalculate or have other motives than economics. But I'd guess that these would be relatively uncommon. And the Imperium might impose legal restrictions on such operations. This, too, can be an adventure seed. In MTU the planet Isran is a TL10 world run by a Socialist oligarchy (think 1984, with higher tech). For the past 30 years, it's been shipping weapons and support to a guerilla movement on Morrowvia, a TL8 non-industrialized world off the major trade routes. The PCs in a recent campaign were gun runners to the *legitimate* government of Morrowvia. They got caught in the middle of an Israni invasion of Morrowvia and got to play guerilla for a few adventures.

 

[tbeard1999]

Yet another comment.

At first glance, it might seem that low tech worlds would be very vulnerable to being "bought up" by high tech worlds. Especially in the case of worlds that have significant natural wealth.

However, I'd submit that colonialism won't be anywhere near as common as it was in the 16th-19th centuries. The reason is that colonialism simply does not pay. In other words, the costs of occupying and administering a colony is seldom offset by whatever wealth is extracted from it. Europe finally figured this out in the 20th century. Indeed, the precipitous decline in post-colonial living standards in former colonial possessions is strong evidence that the colonies profited more than the imperial power. (Of course, a lot of the decline was probably due to widespread embracing of Marxist principles, which seem *designed* to guarantee starvation).

A few notable exceptions *might* be situations where the colonial power utterly rapes the colony and withdraws (Belgium in the Congo). But even there, maybe not.

As for colonizing areas with serious material wealth, the modern Arab world is an argument against that happening. The colonial powers were aware of the staggering oil wealth, yet they still ended their colonial regimes.

At the end of the day, it just seems to be cheaper to buy stuff than to try to take it. Makes sense, really. It's always easier to destroy something than to make it. And insurgencies could make extraction of natural resources VERY expensive by (a) destroying the resources or interfering with the extraction of them; and (b) increasing the costs of garrisons and combat operations. Modern military operations are *very* expensive. Add to that the expense of maintaining a logistical pipeline over one or more parsecs, and it seems clear to me that colonialism is a losing proposition in economic terms.

At very least, it seems to be much cheaper to let the local warlords extract the resources from their people, then buy the resources from the warlords. That's what the industrialized nations are doing with Middle Eastern oil today.

Of course, governments *could* miscalculate or have other motives than economics. But I'd guess that these would be relatively uncommon. And the Imperium might impose legal restrictions on such operations. This, too, can be an adventure seed. In MTU the planet Isran is a TL10 world run by a Socialist oligarchy (think 1984, with higher tech). For the past 30 years, it's been shipping weapons and support to a guerilla movement on Morrowvia, a TL8 non-industrialized world off the major trade routes. The PCs in a recent campaign were gun runners to the *legitimate* government of Morrowvia. They got caught in the middle of an Israni invasion of Morrowvia and got to play guerilla for a few adventures.

 

[tbeard1999]

Yet another.

At first blush, it might seem that colonialism might pay in cases where the colonial power conquers the natives and either wipes them out or relocates them from the most desirable areas. Then, the colonial power transplants its own people to exploit the wealth.

This has happened many times in history. For Americans, the most famous example is the military conquest, forced relocation and largely inadvertent extermination (through disease) of Native American populations. The Brits did it to the Zulus (who did it to some other group). The same happened to the native peoples of Australia as well.

But from the colonial power's perspective, this was no better in the final analysis. First, it's much more expensive to transport hundreds of thousands of colonists to a world. Genocide or relocation can be very expensive (and messy). People will resist far longer if their alternative is extermination or forced relocation, which means much higher military costs for the colonizing power.

And worse of all, consider what happened to the Brits -- who were the *best* at colonialism. The most lucrative of these colonies rebelled (the United States). The rest demanded and eventually got independence (Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc.) In the case of Australia, a near rebellion might have turned into a repeat of the American revolution had a very few things gone differently. And while the Brits defeated the Boers eventually, it was a very costly endeavor. And eventually, South Africa became a sovereign nation.

So if anything, the colonists from the high tech nation were even *less* willing to be exploited -- and FAR more effective at resisting it.

I see no reason that this wouldn't de true in the Third Imperium.

So even if the Imperium was willing to allow mass relocations and genocide, I don't think that economically astute worlds would tend to take this course.

As always, miscalculations or non-economic motivations might trump economic reason.

 

[tbeard1999]

Yet another.

At first blush, it might seem that colonialism might pay in cases where the colonial power conquers the natives and either wipes them out or relocates them from the most desirable areas. Then, the colonial power transplants its own people to exploit the wealth.

This has happened many times in history. For Americans, the most famous example is the military conquest, forced relocation and largely inadvertent extermination (through disease) of Native American populations. The Brits did it to the Zulus (who did it to some other group). The same happened to the native peoples of Australia as well.

But from the colonial power's perspective, this was no better in the final analysis. First, it's much more expensive to transport hundreds of thousands of colonists to a world. Genocide or relocation can be very expensive (and messy). People will resist far longer if their alternative is extermination or forced relocation, which means much higher military costs for the colonizing power.

And worse of all, consider what happened to the Brits -- who were the *best* at colonialism. The most lucrative of these colonies rebelled (the United States). The rest demanded and eventually got independence (Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc.) In the case of Australia, a near rebellion might have turned into a repeat of the American revolution had a very few things gone differently. And while the Brits defeated the Boers eventually, it was a very costly endeavor. And eventually, South Africa became a sovereign nation.

So if anything, the colonists from the high tech nation were even *less* willing to be exploited -- and FAR more effective at resisting it.

I see no reason that this wouldn't de true in the Third Imperium.

So even if the Imperium was willing to allow mass relocations and genocide, I don't think that economically astute worlds would tend to take this course.

As always, miscalculations or non-economic motivations might trump economic reason.