Classic Traveller: An Adult Game/Attitude

[Lord Iron Wolf]

For comment and discussion;

Over on RPG.NET there was a discussion of what Traveller is and was. Besides the smoke and thunder that usually involves a Traveller discussion there was a piece of insight I got from it and I believe it explains why I still like Traveller where other games I played in the past have faded in my affections. It involves the assumptions and attitude of Traveller.

Anyway here is the post and my response to it. If anyone else wants to expand or has other insights to it, I'd appreciate if you would post them.

I think the posts on this board nail really one of the unique features of this game: that in a sprawling universe of potential adventure, your character still had to get the bills paid; in a universe so big your character could never reach its end, your PCs bones were already getting creaky at the prime of his life; in a stellar empire of infinite possibilities the choices your character had made in his youth limited who he was in his 40's.

This, I think, is an amazing and unique tension for RPGs. It's a completely different set of concerns than found in most RPGs--which cater to the delightful and high spirited point of view that "All I need to do is keep going and I'll get more powerful and powerful." Traveller was written from the point of a view of adulthood, and most RPGs (and this is neither good nor bad) work from the adolescent view that lacks an awareness of mortality, death, decay or limits.

Does this mean there are no heroes in Traveller, by the way? No. The tales of Beowulf, The Lord of the Rings, Mallory’s Le Morte D'Arthur and other fantastic legends posit the tension between fantastic settings and heroic deeds against the encroaching weakening of muscles, the end of ages and life. Star Wars, on the other hand, the model for a lot of RPG sensibility from the mid-seventies onward, possesses exactly that naive-kid-in-a-big-place-stretching-his-muscles-forever sensibility. It's significant, I think, that Traveller was on the way to the printer just as Star Wars hit the screen. It's a pre-Star Wars SF setting. This makes it not better or worse than all the would-be "youth" tales—just different.

So, first think Traveller. Now think, "Clint Eastwood." See? Easy as pie.
--------------------------------------------------
I think one thing which has been said on this thread is that Classic Traveller is an adult game and if you look at history a bit you will know what is going on.

Traveller and Dungeons & Dragons came into the public eye at roughly the same time. While Dungeons & Dragons used the basic concept of a young man working his way up into his full powers ala "A Hero's Journey", (experience points/Luke Skywalker/Harry Potter), Traveller used the idea of a mature man in the height of his powers (or the first part of their decline) to create an adventurer (King Solomon’s Mines/Allen Quartermain, John Carter, ect.)

In Traveller your character develops in the generation process and you get to choose when to break your character out (with needs of the service being the exception.) They are ready to adventure at that time and are able to face the deadliest foes. They are also men not supermen and thus don't readily appeal to younger players who are in the throes of an adolescent power trip. (Specializations, feats, "arcane" classes)

In the beginning days RPG's were aimed towards people in their late teens and early to mid twenties (military, college) and written for that maturity level. D&D found a gold mine when they castrated themselves to get the 12-14 year olds; Traveller never did. Many companies jumped on the bandwagon and imitated TSR's strategy. Dungeons & Dragons won out as the dominate way to design a game due to shear force of numbers; much as VHS versus BETA, or PC vs Mac.

Traveller is based on a different design philosophy than D&D and succeeding generations of games. In other words, D&D and Vampire are more alike in structure than D&D and Traveller. If you look at Traveller don't bring your prejudices in with you, most modern games are simply built on a D&D framework for their structure.

Traveller isn't.

Looking Forward to your Comments,
Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

For comment and discussion;

Over on RPG.NET there was a discussion of what Traveller is and was. Besides the smoke and thunder that usually involves a Traveller discussion there was a piece of insight I got from it and I believe it explains why I still like Traveller where other games I played in the past have faded in my affections. It involves the assumptions and attitude of Traveller.

Anyway here is the post and my response to it. If anyone else wants to expand or has other insights to it, I'd appreciate if you would post them.

I think the posts on this board nail really one of the unique features of this game: that in a sprawling universe of potential adventure, your character still had to get the bills paid; in a universe so big your character could never reach its end, your PCs bones were already getting creaky at the prime of his life; in a stellar empire of infinite possibilities the choices your character had made in his youth limited who he was in his 40's.

This, I think, is an amazing and unique tension for RPGs. It's a completely different set of concerns than found in most RPGs--which cater to the delightful and high spirited point of view that "All I need to do is keep going and I'll get more powerful and powerful." Traveller was written from the point of a view of adulthood, and most RPGs (and this is neither good nor bad) work from the adolescent view that lacks an awareness of mortality, death, decay or limits.

Does this mean there are no heroes in Traveller, by the way? No. The tales of Beowulf, The Lord of the Rings, Mallory’s Le Morte D'Arthur and other fantastic legends posit the tension between fantastic settings and heroic deeds against the encroaching weakening of muscles, the end of ages and life. Star Wars, on the other hand, the model for a lot of RPG sensibility from the mid-seventies onward, possesses exactly that naive-kid-in-a-big-place-stretching-his-muscles-forever sensibility. It's significant, I think, that Traveller was on the way to the printer just as Star Wars hit the screen. It's a pre-Star Wars SF setting. This makes it not better or worse than all the would-be "youth" tales—just different.

So, first think Traveller. Now think, "Clint Eastwood." See? Easy as pie.
--------------------------------------------------
I think one thing which has been said on this thread is that Classic Traveller is an adult game and if you look at history a bit you will know what is going on.

Traveller and Dungeons & Dragons came into the public eye at roughly the same time. While Dungeons & Dragons used the basic concept of a young man working his way up into his full powers ala "A Hero's Journey", (experience points/Luke Skywalker/Harry Potter), Traveller used the idea of a mature man in the height of his powers (or the first part of their decline) to create an adventurer (King Solomon’s Mines/Allen Quartermain, John Carter, ect.)

In Traveller your character develops in the generation process and you get to choose when to break your character out (with needs of the service being the exception.) They are ready to adventure at that time and are able to face the deadliest foes. They are also men not supermen and thus don't readily appeal to younger players who are in the throes of an adolescent power trip. (Specializations, feats, "arcane" classes)

In the beginning days RPG's were aimed towards people in their late teens and early to mid twenties (military, college) and written for that maturity level. D&D found a gold mine when they castrated themselves to get the 12-14 year olds; Traveller never did. Many companies jumped on the bandwagon and imitated TSR's strategy. Dungeons & Dragons won out as the dominate way to design a game due to shear force of numbers; much as VHS versus BETA, or PC vs Mac.

Traveller is based on a different design philosophy than D&D and succeeding generations of games. In other words, D&D and Vampire are more alike in structure than D&D and Traveller. If you look at Traveller don't bring your prejudices in with you, most modern games are simply built on a D&D framework for their structure.

Traveller isn't.

Looking Forward to your Comments,
Lord Iron Wolf

 

[Whipsnade]

Mr. Wolf,

We've pretty much had this conversation before, but its worth repeating. I first ran across this discussion during a thread in which the relative uselessness of XP harvesting 'dungeon crawls' in the Traveller setting was bemoaned. Attempting to explain that Traveller wasn't played that way, that Traveller wasn't 'D&D in Space', did not go over very well. Using d20 rules, even d20 rules massaged and tweaked for the Traveller setting, means that, unless great care is taken, a certain style of play arrives as part of d20's baggage.

In another thread that discussed the 'proper' use of d20's 'minions and followers' feat in T20 (IMEHO, there is NO proper use of that feat in a Traveller setting), I described the difference between the heroic-fantasy, D&D, Star Wars style of RPG play (d20 & its offspring) and the nitty-gritty, 'adult', 'realistic' style of play (Traveller, CoC, etc.) as the difference between the two heroes in 'Casablanca'. Victor Lazlo is a d20/T20 PC and Rick Blaine is a Traveller PC. That seemed to work for some of the thread's readers.

Sadly, most of role-playing is built around the teenage male munchkin fantasies of wealth, power, and prowess. Things only get better and you become more accomplished as you adventure along. Traveller; with its aging rolls, 'too deadly' combat, and other aspects, is a far more mature style of role-playing.

YMMV.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

Mr. Wolf,

We've pretty much had this conversation before, but its worth repeating. I first ran across this discussion during a thread in which the relative uselessness of XP harvesting 'dungeon crawls' in the Traveller setting was bemoaned. Attempting to explain that Traveller wasn't played that way, that Traveller wasn't 'D&D in Space', did not go over very well. Using d20 rules, even d20 rules massaged and tweaked for the Traveller setting, means that, unless great care is taken, a certain style of play arrives as part of d20's baggage.

In another thread that discussed the 'proper' use of d20's 'minions and followers' feat in T20 (IMEHO, there is NO proper use of that feat in a Traveller setting), I described the difference between the heroic-fantasy, D&D, Star Wars style of RPG play (d20 & its offspring) and the nitty-gritty, 'adult', 'realistic' style of play (Traveller, CoC, etc.) as the difference between the two heroes in 'Casablanca'. Victor Lazlo is a d20/T20 PC and Rick Blaine is a Traveller PC. That seemed to work for some of the thread's readers.

Sadly, most of role-playing is built around the teenage male munchkin fantasies of wealth, power, and prowess. Things only get better and you become more accomplished as you adventure along. Traveller; with its aging rolls, 'too deadly' combat, and other aspects, is a far more mature style of role-playing.

YMMV.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Antaine]

A couple of years back I picked up my Traveller Book again for a read through with a vague thought of playing again after years in the Aussie Army had put it all on hold.

My knee creaked then "cracked" as I sat back down with book in hand and I realised at that instant that somewhere along the way, I'd failed a couple of real life aging rolls!

I was lost in quiet contemplation of that simple yet awesome fact for a few hours as I quietly rolled up a few characters as possible future NPCs. Here I was in my mid 30's, discharged medically unfit from the services (The referee upstairs allowed me to retired injured when I failed a survival roll) with a skeletal system that won't support my own body weight without pain let alone the 40-70kgs I used to carry as an Infantry Soldier doing LRRP. I now have scars that I can't remember exactly when they arrived except for a vague recollection of some discomfort back when "Fitzy kicked that mine". I went from being 18 years old with a UPP of 8 9 9 ? ? ? to 30 something with a UPP of 3 6 3 ? ? ? . I'll never again experience a HAHO or HALO jump or the thrill of fast roping out of a Hughey or a Blackhawk. Where I used to average 110kms a week running X country on top of all the Army PT training, now I'm allowed to swim so long as the pool is heated.

However, along the way I also learnt to deal with my physical shortcomings with the "7 P's" and a good dose of guile thrown in. (7 P's = Prior Preperation and Planning Prevents P^$$ Poor Performance)

I'd obviously picked up some extra intelligence and education in the services or as muster out benefits.

I still see the Traveller Universe with a certain amount of awe. Such a simple system worked well enough to model known Imperial Space and then some, but more than that; Traveller was modelling the real world when D&D was sucking youngsters into permanent munchkinism!

Hence why, as an adult with real life experience in the services, I'm a died in the wool CT supporter. It's an "Adult" game and it hit the ground running as such.

My 0.02 Cr worth.

 

[Antaine]

A couple of years back I picked up my Traveller Book again for a read through with a vague thought of playing again after years in the Aussie Army had put it all on hold.

My knee creaked then "cracked" as I sat back down with book in hand and I realised at that instant that somewhere along the way, I'd failed a couple of real life aging rolls!

I was lost in quiet contemplation of that simple yet awesome fact for a few hours as I quietly rolled up a few characters as possible future NPCs. Here I was in my mid 30's, discharged medically unfit from the services (The referee upstairs allowed me to retired injured when I failed a survival roll) with a skeletal system that won't support my own body weight without pain let alone the 40-70kgs I used to carry as an Infantry Soldier doing LRRP. I now have scars that I can't remember exactly when they arrived except for a vague recollection of some discomfort back when "Fitzy kicked that mine". I went from being 18 years old with a UPP of 8 9 9 ? ? ? to 30 something with a UPP of 3 6 3 ? ? ? . I'll never again experience a HAHO or HALO jump or the thrill of fast roping out of a Hughey or a Blackhawk. Where I used to average 110kms a week running X country on top of all the Army PT training, now I'm allowed to swim so long as the pool is heated.

However, along the way I also learnt to deal with my physical shortcomings with the "7 P's" and a good dose of guile thrown in. (7 P's = Prior Preperation and Planning Prevents P^$$ Poor Performance)

I'd obviously picked up some extra intelligence and education in the services or as muster out benefits.

I still see the Traveller Universe with a certain amount of awe. Such a simple system worked well enough to model known Imperial Space and then some, but more than that; Traveller was modelling the real world when D&D was sucking youngsters into permanent munchkinism!

Hence why, as an adult with real life experience in the services, I'm a died in the wool CT supporter. It's an "Adult" game and it hit the ground running as such.

My 0.02 Cr worth.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Antaine:
I went from being 18 years old with a UPP of 8 9 9 ? ? ? to 30 something with a UPP of 3 6 3 ? ? ? .

Meh. I went from 568A98 to 567AA7, in 5 and a half terms.

No military service. I spent a bit of time in a colony, though.

Alan B
(Currently in Toowoomba, on a Friday night. Don't worry, once I finish typing this, I'll be on my way back to the pub. I just needed a bit more cash. I'm not unpatriotic, really.

)

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Antaine:
I went from being 18 years old with a UPP of 8 9 9 ? ? ? to 30 something with a UPP of 3 6 3 ? ? ? .

Meh. I went from 568A98 to 567AA7, in 5 and a half terms.

No military service. I spent a bit of time in a colony, though.

Alan B
(Currently in Toowoomba, on a Friday night. Don't worry, once I finish typing this, I'll be on my way back to the pub. I just needed a bit more cash. I'm not unpatriotic, really.

)

 

[hirch duckfinder]

i still like both styles . it's more the setting than anything else for me .
d+d has a wonderful , comedy cartoony feel , with little pretense of logic ; are you bringing your giant owl INTO the pub sir ...? great fot a bit of light entertainment .
traveller , even when a bit space-operatic as i like it , has a harder edge . it is a bit easier to immagine real people in traveller . and the problems presented rarely have ideal solutions . and fighting is dangerous . but the environment is believable and plausible which makes it a deeper experience .....

 

[hirch duckfinder]

i still like both styles . it's more the setting than anything else for me .
d+d has a wonderful , comedy cartoony feel , with little pretense of logic ; are you bringing your giant owl INTO the pub sir ...? great fot a bit of light entertainment .
traveller , even when a bit space-operatic as i like it , has a harder edge . it is a bit easier to immagine real people in traveller . and the problems presented rarely have ideal solutions . and fighting is dangerous . but the environment is believable and plausible which makes it a deeper experience .....

 

[Whipsnade]

hirch duckfinder wrote:

"i still like both styles ."


Mr. Duckfinder,

So do I. Saying that Traveller is philosophically differently than d20 or saying that the Traveller system was originally constructed for a different style of play than d20's ancestor D&D, isn't an attack on D&D, d20, or T20 in any way, shape, or form. Those systems are fine for the type of play and settings they were constructed for originally; heroic-fantasy.

This is just an acknowledgement of 'horses for courses'. d20 wasn't concieved of as a generic rules set(1) and, despite all the tweaks and adjustments, the D&D roots of d20 still show in T20. Just as geography is destiny, a RPG rules set drives play style. And when it comes to play style, Traveller and D&D are on opposite poles.

d20 is an excellent rules set for its style and setting. However, that doesn't mean that a d20 modification will be anything more than servicable in another style and setting. Horses for courses.

When someone new to Traveller asks why XP harvesting dungeon crawls don't seem to work or how to 'properly' use the Minions and Followers Feat, then the D&D roots of T20 are shining through. They're trying to use mechanisms developed for a D&D style of play in a setting that has, and always did have, an entirely different style.

Sadly, when we try and explain this it is always percieved as an attack on the player, an attack on D&D/d20/T20, or both. All we're trying to say is you need to use the right tool for the job. Horses for courses, that's all.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - FUDGE and GURPS notwithstanding, generic role-playing systems place the 'Style Of Play For The Given Setting' burden on the GMs and PCs. This is because a generic system must accomodate all play styles. The generic system must allow both a heroic-fantasy style and a nitty-gritty style at the same time. It then falls to the GMs and PCs to prevent aspects from one style of play from creeping into a setting that was constructed for another style of play.

 

[Whipsnade]

hirch duckfinder wrote:

"i still like both styles ."


Mr. Duckfinder,

So do I. Saying that Traveller is philosophically differently than d20 or saying that the Traveller system was originally constructed for a different style of play than d20's ancestor D&D, isn't an attack on D&D, d20, or T20 in any way, shape, or form. Those systems are fine for the type of play and settings they were constructed for originally; heroic-fantasy.

This is just an acknowledgement of 'horses for courses'. d20 wasn't concieved of as a generic rules set(1) and, despite all the tweaks and adjustments, the D&D roots of d20 still show in T20. Just as geography is destiny, a RPG rules set drives play style. And when it comes to play style, Traveller and D&D are on opposite poles.

d20 is an excellent rules set for its style and setting. However, that doesn't mean that a d20 modification will be anything more than servicable in another style and setting. Horses for courses.

When someone new to Traveller asks why XP harvesting dungeon crawls don't seem to work or how to 'properly' use the Minions and Followers Feat, then the D&D roots of T20 are shining through. They're trying to use mechanisms developed for a D&D style of play in a setting that has, and always did have, an entirely different style.

Sadly, when we try and explain this it is always percieved as an attack on the player, an attack on D&D/d20/T20, or both. All we're trying to say is you need to use the right tool for the job. Horses for courses, that's all.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - FUDGE and GURPS notwithstanding, generic role-playing systems place the 'Style Of Play For The Given Setting' burden on the GMs and PCs. This is because a generic system must accomodate all play styles. The generic system must allow both a heroic-fantasy style and a nitty-gritty style at the same time. It then falls to the GMs and PCs to prevent aspects from one style of play from creeping into a setting that was constructed for another style of play.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

Mr Whipsnade ,
here i must admit to have never played t20 . or d20 . in fact i find d&d 2nd edition a mystery in places

i was picking up on a slightly different angle - : that traveller is a more "adult" game and has more depth and validity for us grown-ups , which is how i read posts above ( possibly mistakenly ) . i was simply expressing that , as an adult , i still enjoy some adolescent persuits in simple environments as well
.....................................................................................................................................................................(thinks)....... ......


( well ok . traveller is better )

 

[hirch duckfinder]

Mr Whipsnade ,
here i must admit to have never played t20 . or d20 . in fact i find d&d 2nd edition a mystery in places

i was picking up on a slightly different angle - : that traveller is a more "adult" game and has more depth and validity for us grown-ups , which is how i read posts above ( possibly mistakenly ) . i was simply expressing that , as an adult , i still enjoy some adolescent persuits in simple environments as well
.....................................................................................................................................................................(thinks)....... ......


( well ok . traveller is better )

 

[salamander]

I'm poking my head up from a serious gearheading session (just how big is the IISS?) just to say that as an example of maturity or perceived lack thereof:

-- one can have a Traveller setting which asymptotically approaches realism, at least within the bounds of posited super-science (r-less thrusters) and game mechanics. So we can gearhead an asteroid colony which, while currently impossible, is at least plausible. That's a feature not a bug.

-- one has a much harder time doing the same thing in a dungeon-crawl fantasy setting (just exactly what do those kobolds eat when there are no adventurers to munch on?) where plausibility must be sacrificed on the altar of Campbellian heroism. That's a bug, not a feature.

Traveller encourages a slightly "wider" view of the setting and a desire to make things internally consistent, as evidenced by the numerous fine-point arguments about near-c rocks, ship size restrictions and role of the nobility debates which occur on the TML. I do consider that CT-derived Traveller has a more mature feel to it in that Traveller allows us to work out futuristic implications of real-world situations. D&D-derived games seem to encourage escape from this experience.

This is not to say that one is "better" than the other.

 

[salamander]

I'm poking my head up from a serious gearheading session (just how big is the IISS?) just to say that as an example of maturity or perceived lack thereof:

-- one can have a Traveller setting which asymptotically approaches realism, at least within the bounds of posited super-science (r-less thrusters) and game mechanics. So we can gearhead an asteroid colony which, while currently impossible, is at least plausible. That's a feature not a bug.

-- one has a much harder time doing the same thing in a dungeon-crawl fantasy setting (just exactly what do those kobolds eat when there are no adventurers to munch on?) where plausibility must be sacrificed on the altar of Campbellian heroism. That's a bug, not a feature.

Traveller encourages a slightly "wider" view of the setting and a desire to make things internally consistent, as evidenced by the numerous fine-point arguments about near-c rocks, ship size restrictions and role of the nobility debates which occur on the TML. I do consider that CT-derived Traveller has a more mature feel to it in that Traveller allows us to work out futuristic implications of real-world situations. D&D-derived games seem to encourage escape from this experience.

This is not to say that one is "better" than the other.

 

[Whipsnade]

hirch duckfinder wrote:

"that traveller is a more "adult" game and has more depth and validity for us grown-ups..."


Mr. Duckfinder,

I'm a bit squeamish about using the term 'adult' or the phrase 'depth and validity for us grown-ups' when discussing role-playing. After all, we are talking about make believe here! Traveller is different from D&D, not better, not more adult, just different.

"( well ok . traveller is better )"

Not better, different.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

hirch duckfinder wrote:

"that traveller is a more "adult" game and has more depth and validity for us grown-ups..."


Mr. Duckfinder,

I'm a bit squeamish about using the term 'adult' or the phrase 'depth and validity for us grown-ups' when discussing role-playing. After all, we are talking about make believe here! Traveller is different from D&D, not better, not more adult, just different.

"( well ok . traveller is better )"

Not better, different.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Antaine]

OFF TOPIC HERE!

Originally posted by alanb:


Alan B
(Currently in Toowoomba, on a Friday night. Don't worry, once I finish typing this, I'll be on my way back to the pub. I just needed a bit more cash. I'm not unpatriotic, really.

)

I sat at home on a friday night with the wife and kids....I guess that as I can no longer consume huge quantities of alcohol (medications get jealous) and I'm bored with the "pub" must mean I'm a subversive of the worst kind!! I want to be home with the wife and kids

 

[Antaine]

OFF TOPIC HERE!

Originally posted by alanb:


Alan B
(Currently in Toowoomba, on a Friday night. Don't worry, once I finish typing this, I'll be on my way back to the pub. I just needed a bit more cash. I'm not unpatriotic, really.

)

I sat at home on a friday night with the wife and kids....I guess that as I can no longer consume huge quantities of alcohol (medications get jealous) and I'm bored with the "pub" must mean I'm a subversive of the worst kind!! I want to be home with the wife and kids