Classic Traveller: An Adult Game/Attitude
- Thread starter Lord Iron Wolf
- Start date
I find most pepole do RPGs to get away from reality for a while. They are perfoct for D&D.
It is a rare person who goes for the high realism at the far end of the universe offered by Traveller. I find that Traveller makes players use their grey matter so much that it hurts. This I blame on an upbringing of D&D as adolescents.
The guys who most enjoy Traveller I find are the ones who start off with Traveller instead of fantasy hack and slash. 
I do find it highly ironic that an RPG game is considered an adult game as opposed to a kids game. RPG gaming is by it's nature playing, a kids activity. I always thought "adult games" meant an X rating. Now I can play Traveller and think myself grownup again.
It is a rare person who goes for the high realism at the far end of the universe offered by Traveller. I find that Traveller makes players use their grey matter so much that it hurts. This I blame on an upbringing of D&D as adolescents.
I do find it highly ironic that an RPG game is considered an adult game as opposed to a kids game. RPG gaming is by it's nature playing, a kids activity. I always thought "adult games" meant an X rating. Now I can play Traveller and think myself grownup again.
I find most pepole do RPGs to get away from reality for a while. They are perfoct for D&D.
It is a rare person who goes for the high realism at the far end of the universe offered by Traveller. I find that Traveller makes players use their grey matter so much that it hurts. This I blame on an upbringing of D&D as adolescents.
The guys who most enjoy Traveller I find are the ones who start off with Traveller instead of fantasy hack and slash.
I do find it highly ironic that an RPG game is considered an adult game as opposed to a kids game. RPG gaming is by it's nature playing, a kids activity. I always thought "adult games" meant an X rating. Now I can play Traveller and think myself grownup again.
It is a rare person who goes for the high realism at the far end of the universe offered by Traveller. I find that Traveller makes players use their grey matter so much that it hurts. This I blame on an upbringing of D&D as adolescents.
I do find it highly ironic that an RPG game is considered an adult game as opposed to a kids game. RPG gaming is by it's nature playing, a kids activity. I always thought "adult games" meant an X rating. Now I can play Traveller and think myself grownup again.
Missah Whipsnade sah,
apropos of nothing, I don't know if you're familiar with Ron Edwards GNS theory of RPGs. If not, the following material may entertain you:
System Does Matter
GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory
It's heavy going, to say the least, and it sometimes produces unpalatable results (e.g. "you guys shouldn't play together, sorry"). But it's the only extensive theorising about RPGs I've seen that holds up to close scrutiny.
p.s. As for T20 and D&D... Yes, I agree that the mechanics of D&D and hence T20 systematically encourage a certain style of play (e.g. "kill 'em for the XP"). I houseruled it. That's work I shouldn't need to do if I had the perfect system for the job, but all the other versions of Traveller have some other problem instead so I come out even in the end...
p.p.s. I feel that one should draw a distinction between D20 and "the way longtime D&D players think". E.g. the "I'm level 6, I don't need to worry about that shotgun because my hitpoints will save me" mindset is caused by previous conditioning in D&D, not current use of D20. It's not MJD's fault if lots of ex-D&Ders are suicidal.
p.p.p.s. Do you hate GURPS advantages/disadvantages as much as T20 feats?
Missah Whipsnade sah,
apropos of nothing, I don't know if you're familiar with Ron Edwards GNS theory of RPGs. If not, the following material may entertain you:
System Does Matter
GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory
It's heavy going, to say the least, and it sometimes produces unpalatable results (e.g. "you guys shouldn't play together, sorry"). But it's the only extensive theorising about RPGs I've seen that holds up to close scrutiny.
p.s. As for T20 and D&D... Yes, I agree that the mechanics of D&D and hence T20 systematically encourage a certain style of play (e.g. "kill 'em for the XP"). I houseruled it. That's work I shouldn't need to do if I had the perfect system for the job, but all the other versions of Traveller have some other problem instead so I come out even in the end...
p.p.s. I feel that one should draw a distinction between D20 and "the way longtime D&D players think". E.g. the "I'm level 6, I don't need to worry about that shotgun because my hitpoints will save me" mindset is caused by previous conditioning in D&D, not current use of D20. It's not MJD's fault if lots of ex-D&Ders are suicidal.
p.p.p.s. Do you hate GURPS advantages/disadvantages as much as T20 feats?
Morte wrote:
"Do you hate GURPS advantages/disadvantages as much as T20 feats?"
Mr. Morte,
I have been imprecise yet again. I do not hate feats per se, I simply hate them in Traveller. Or, more accurately, I hate them in the nitty-gritty style of RPG play used in most Traveller campaigns. Feats have their place in certain styles of play, so do GURPS ads/disads.
IM extremely HO, feats do not belong in Traveller and ads/disads barely do so. They both smack of sooper-dooper special powers; feats were designed from the beginning to be so such and ads/disads can be easily munchkined into the same sort of thing.
If I were playing Traveller-Buck Rodgers than feats would fit. Various feats could 'explain' within the Buck Rodgers setting how Buck; an average schmoe from 1930s Earth, is the best blaster shot, best flyer pilot, best spaceship pilot, and best fill-in-the-blank on Mongo despite having never seen a blaster, flyer, spaceship, or fill in the blank before. This is where feats work, and they do work very well in the right style of play.
Why is Conan such a superb sowrdsman despite having done little from childhood to adlolescence except push a millstone around in a circle? Because he has the proper feats! Feats are utterly necessary for the capital 'aitch' Heroic, fantastic (not just fantasy), cinematic (HFC) style of RPG play. Feats are little more than munchkin-driven, play breakers in the small 'aitch' heroic, nitty-gritty, (hng) style of RPG play. Its all a matter of horses for courses.
GURPS ads/disads are that generic RPG system's way of having something like 'feats' available for HFC play while not wrecking hng play. Even then, there are too many ads/disads and they either cost too little; in the case of ads, or too much, in the case of disads. PCs will always attempt to max out their allowable disads; such as taking something relatively inconsequential like 'poor sense of smell', so that they can spend more on stats or skills.
If I were running a GT campaign, each PC's ads/disads 'load' would be subject to GM scrutiny and/or veto. I'd also halve the allowable maximum ads/disads points suggested in GURPS Basic.
Unlike feats; which I feel should only be used with certain play styles, ads/disads can be used to 'tweak' a PC, albeit carefully. Using myself as an example; I would have a low DEX stat in a Traveller game because DEX covers total body dexterity. That doesn't really describe me however. I'd have a low DEX stat due to bad legs (various injuries and accidents) while my fingers and hands are still rather nimble. Using the GURPS ads/disads mechanism, I could have a low DEX stat with a manual dexterity advantage or a normal DEX stat with a lame disadvantage.
The feats mechanism, on the other hand, would not permit such fine tuning. Feats are of the 'rabbit from the hat' school; thanks to a feat you always have 'minions and followers' or always can fly a reverse triple-dipple loop, or fight with a sord in each hand or some other such cinematic, capital 'aitch' Heroic type thing.
As I keep flogging, its horses for courses. Feats provide far more benefit to a PC and can thus wreak far more damage to any campaign that they do not precisely suit. Ads/disads provide benefits too, but weaker ones that hold less danger for the GM.
BTW, thanks for the link! I also hope you'll finish your Kursis Charter story, It's a keeper!
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Do you hate GURPS advantages/disadvantages as much as T20 feats?"
Mr. Morte,
I have been imprecise yet again. I do not hate feats per se, I simply hate them in Traveller. Or, more accurately, I hate them in the nitty-gritty style of RPG play used in most Traveller campaigns. Feats have their place in certain styles of play, so do GURPS ads/disads.
IM extremely HO, feats do not belong in Traveller and ads/disads barely do so. They both smack of sooper-dooper special powers; feats were designed from the beginning to be so such and ads/disads can be easily munchkined into the same sort of thing.
If I were playing Traveller-Buck Rodgers than feats would fit. Various feats could 'explain' within the Buck Rodgers setting how Buck; an average schmoe from 1930s Earth, is the best blaster shot, best flyer pilot, best spaceship pilot, and best fill-in-the-blank on Mongo despite having never seen a blaster, flyer, spaceship, or fill in the blank before. This is where feats work, and they do work very well in the right style of play.
Why is Conan such a superb sowrdsman despite having done little from childhood to adlolescence except push a millstone around in a circle? Because he has the proper feats! Feats are utterly necessary for the capital 'aitch' Heroic, fantastic (not just fantasy), cinematic (HFC) style of RPG play. Feats are little more than munchkin-driven, play breakers in the small 'aitch' heroic, nitty-gritty, (hng) style of RPG play. Its all a matter of horses for courses.
GURPS ads/disads are that generic RPG system's way of having something like 'feats' available for HFC play while not wrecking hng play. Even then, there are too many ads/disads and they either cost too little; in the case of ads, or too much, in the case of disads. PCs will always attempt to max out their allowable disads; such as taking something relatively inconsequential like 'poor sense of smell', so that they can spend more on stats or skills.
If I were running a GT campaign, each PC's ads/disads 'load' would be subject to GM scrutiny and/or veto. I'd also halve the allowable maximum ads/disads points suggested in GURPS Basic.
Unlike feats; which I feel should only be used with certain play styles, ads/disads can be used to 'tweak' a PC, albeit carefully. Using myself as an example; I would have a low DEX stat in a Traveller game because DEX covers total body dexterity. That doesn't really describe me however. I'd have a low DEX stat due to bad legs (various injuries and accidents) while my fingers and hands are still rather nimble. Using the GURPS ads/disads mechanism, I could have a low DEX stat with a manual dexterity advantage or a normal DEX stat with a lame disadvantage.
The feats mechanism, on the other hand, would not permit such fine tuning. Feats are of the 'rabbit from the hat' school; thanks to a feat you always have 'minions and followers' or always can fly a reverse triple-dipple loop, or fight with a sord in each hand or some other such cinematic, capital 'aitch' Heroic type thing.
As I keep flogging, its horses for courses. Feats provide far more benefit to a PC and can thus wreak far more damage to any campaign that they do not precisely suit. Ads/disads provide benefits too, but weaker ones that hold less danger for the GM.
BTW, thanks for the link! I also hope you'll finish your Kursis Charter story, It's a keeper!
Sincerely,
Larsen
Morte wrote:
"Do you hate GURPS advantages/disadvantages as much as T20 feats?"
Mr. Morte,
I have been imprecise yet again. I do not hate feats per se, I simply hate them in Traveller. Or, more accurately, I hate them in the nitty-gritty style of RPG play used in most Traveller campaigns. Feats have their place in certain styles of play, so do GURPS ads/disads.
IM extremely HO, feats do not belong in Traveller and ads/disads barely do so. They both smack of sooper-dooper special powers; feats were designed from the beginning to be so such and ads/disads can be easily munchkined into the same sort of thing.
If I were playing Traveller-Buck Rodgers than feats would fit. Various feats could 'explain' within the Buck Rodgers setting how Buck; an average schmoe from 1930s Earth, is the best blaster shot, best flyer pilot, best spaceship pilot, and best fill-in-the-blank on Mongo despite having never seen a blaster, flyer, spaceship, or fill in the blank before. This is where feats work, and they do work very well in the right style of play.
Why is Conan such a superb sowrdsman despite having done little from childhood to adlolescence except push a millstone around in a circle? Because he has the proper feats! Feats are utterly necessary for the capital 'aitch' Heroic, fantastic (not just fantasy), cinematic (HFC) style of RPG play. Feats are little more than munchkin-driven, play breakers in the small 'aitch' heroic, nitty-gritty, (hng) style of RPG play. Its all a matter of horses for courses.
GURPS ads/disads are that generic RPG system's way of having something like 'feats' available for HFC play while not wrecking hng play. Even then, there are too many ads/disads and they either cost too little; in the case of ads, or too much, in the case of disads. PCs will always attempt to max out their allowable disads; such as taking something relatively inconsequential like 'poor sense of smell', so that they can spend more on stats or skills.
If I were running a GT campaign, each PC's ads/disads 'load' would be subject to GM scrutiny and/or veto. I'd also halve the allowable maximum ads/disads points suggested in GURPS Basic.
Unlike feats; which I feel should only be used with certain play styles, ads/disads can be used to 'tweak' a PC, albeit carefully. Using myself as an example; I would have a low DEX stat in a Traveller game because DEX covers total body dexterity. That doesn't really describe me however. I'd have a low DEX stat due to bad legs (various injuries and accidents) while my fingers and hands are still rather nimble. Using the GURPS ads/disads mechanism, I could have a low DEX stat with a manual dexterity advantage or a normal DEX stat with a lame disadvantage.
The feats mechanism, on the other hand, would not permit such fine tuning. Feats are of the 'rabbit from the hat' school; thanks to a feat you always have 'minions and followers' or always can fly a reverse triple-dipple loop, or fight with a sord in each hand or some other such cinematic, capital 'aitch' Heroic type thing.
As I keep flogging, its horses for courses. Feats provide far more benefit to a PC and can thus wreak far more damage to any campaign that they do not precisely suit. Ads/disads provide benefits too, but weaker ones that hold less danger for the GM.
BTW, thanks for the link! I also hope you'll finish your Kursis Charter story, It's a keeper!
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Do you hate GURPS advantages/disadvantages as much as T20 feats?"
Mr. Morte,
I have been imprecise yet again. I do not hate feats per se, I simply hate them in Traveller. Or, more accurately, I hate them in the nitty-gritty style of RPG play used in most Traveller campaigns. Feats have their place in certain styles of play, so do GURPS ads/disads.
IM extremely HO, feats do not belong in Traveller and ads/disads barely do so. They both smack of sooper-dooper special powers; feats were designed from the beginning to be so such and ads/disads can be easily munchkined into the same sort of thing.
If I were playing Traveller-Buck Rodgers than feats would fit. Various feats could 'explain' within the Buck Rodgers setting how Buck; an average schmoe from 1930s Earth, is the best blaster shot, best flyer pilot, best spaceship pilot, and best fill-in-the-blank on Mongo despite having never seen a blaster, flyer, spaceship, or fill in the blank before. This is where feats work, and they do work very well in the right style of play.
Why is Conan such a superb sowrdsman despite having done little from childhood to adlolescence except push a millstone around in a circle? Because he has the proper feats! Feats are utterly necessary for the capital 'aitch' Heroic, fantastic (not just fantasy), cinematic (HFC) style of RPG play. Feats are little more than munchkin-driven, play breakers in the small 'aitch' heroic, nitty-gritty, (hng) style of RPG play. Its all a matter of horses for courses.
GURPS ads/disads are that generic RPG system's way of having something like 'feats' available for HFC play while not wrecking hng play. Even then, there are too many ads/disads and they either cost too little; in the case of ads, or too much, in the case of disads. PCs will always attempt to max out their allowable disads; such as taking something relatively inconsequential like 'poor sense of smell', so that they can spend more on stats or skills.
If I were running a GT campaign, each PC's ads/disads 'load' would be subject to GM scrutiny and/or veto. I'd also halve the allowable maximum ads/disads points suggested in GURPS Basic.
Unlike feats; which I feel should only be used with certain play styles, ads/disads can be used to 'tweak' a PC, albeit carefully. Using myself as an example; I would have a low DEX stat in a Traveller game because DEX covers total body dexterity. That doesn't really describe me however. I'd have a low DEX stat due to bad legs (various injuries and accidents) while my fingers and hands are still rather nimble. Using the GURPS ads/disads mechanism, I could have a low DEX stat with a manual dexterity advantage or a normal DEX stat with a lame disadvantage.
The feats mechanism, on the other hand, would not permit such fine tuning. Feats are of the 'rabbit from the hat' school; thanks to a feat you always have 'minions and followers' or always can fly a reverse triple-dipple loop, or fight with a sord in each hand or some other such cinematic, capital 'aitch' Heroic type thing.
As I keep flogging, its horses for courses. Feats provide far more benefit to a PC and can thus wreak far more damage to any campaign that they do not precisely suit. Ads/disads provide benefits too, but weaker ones that hold less danger for the GM.
BTW, thanks for the link! I also hope you'll finish your Kursis Charter story, It's a keeper!
Sincerely,
Larsen
I am not Mr. Whipsnape (obviously), but I am curious about this question.
While I don't have T20 (or D20 for that matter), it would seem to me that adv/disad in GURPS and feats in T20 are completely different. In what way are you comparing them? </font>[/QUOTE]D20 taxonomy...
Abilities: characteristics that everybody in the game world has to some varying extent. E.g. STR, DEX, CON etc.
Skills: characteristics that some people in the gameworld have to some varying degree of mastery (which may improve with practice/training in some systems). E.g. Hide, Spot, T/Astrogation, K/Ancients.
Feats: characteristics (or drawbacks) that some people in the gameworld have and others don't. They're binary, there is no degree, you've got 'em or you haven't. E.g. Weapon Proficiency (Combat Rifeleman), Contact Specialist, Ambidexterity, Technophobia (a T20 Barbarian class disadvantage).
Feats play essentially the same role in D20 mechanics as A/Ds in GURPS, IMHO. GURPS is more sophisticated about it since it assigns variable costs to A/Ds, whereas D20 values all feats the same (hence the inelegant salami slicing to balance feats against each other).
For me, the only real fundamental mechanical difference between GURPS and D20 is that the point cost means you can horse trade between Abilities, Skills and A/Ds, whereas D20 assigns a pool to each of Abilities, Skills and Feats. When you stick them next to a game like Dust Devils or The Riddle of Steel, GURPS and D20 look identical.
I am not Mr. Whipsnape (obviously), but I am curious about this question.
While I don't have T20 (or D20 for that matter), it would seem to me that adv/disad in GURPS and feats in T20 are completely different. In what way are you comparing them? </font>[/QUOTE]D20 taxonomy...
Abilities: characteristics that everybody in the game world has to some varying extent. E.g. STR, DEX, CON etc.
Skills: characteristics that some people in the gameworld have to some varying degree of mastery (which may improve with practice/training in some systems). E.g. Hide, Spot, T/Astrogation, K/Ancients.
Feats: characteristics (or drawbacks) that some people in the gameworld have and others don't. They're binary, there is no degree, you've got 'em or you haven't. E.g. Weapon Proficiency (Combat Rifeleman), Contact Specialist, Ambidexterity, Technophobia (a T20 Barbarian class disadvantage).
Feats play essentially the same role in D20 mechanics as A/Ds in GURPS, IMHO. GURPS is more sophisticated about it since it assigns variable costs to A/Ds, whereas D20 values all feats the same (hence the inelegant salami slicing to balance feats against each other).
For me, the only real fundamental mechanical difference between GURPS and D20 is that the point cost means you can horse trade between Abilities, Skills and A/Ds, whereas D20 assigns a pool to each of Abilities, Skills and Feats. When you stick them next to a game like Dust Devils or The Riddle of Steel, GURPS and D20 look identical.
It seems to me that you're not objecting to T20 having Feats, an on/off mechanic that works alongside the variable Abilties and Skills (different tools for a different jobs). Rather, it seems that you object to what it used them for -- you think they're too hi-falutin' and melodramatic.
If I read you right, then your objection finally makes sense to me. Please ignore everything after this if I didn't grasp your meaning.
So, assuming we're on the same wavelength... I can see why you got that impression, but I don't think it's actually quite as bad as you paint it.
Uh, that one is entirely left out of the feat list Player's Handbook and put in the Dungeon Master's Guide as an option. Since it can be a "rabbit from the hat", GMs may only wish to allow in certain games.... There's advice in the DMG on how it will affect the game and whether DMs should allow it in particular groups/games.
Also, D20 is not D&D. Not all D&D feats are included in other D20 games (and that feat is not in the THB). GMs can add them in at their discretion, but then you're house ruling. [In OTU T20 I might let a 46 year old, high level Barabarian chief have a bunch of minor minions, but that's about it.]
You'd have to rebalance it for T20 though. In D&D it's balanced against other feats because you get lower level followers and they take XP. Level is hugely important in D&D but it counts for less in T20.
or always can fly a reverse triple-dipple loop,
Um, there's a feat called "Acrobatic" which I think gives you +2 to Balance and Tumble checks. So you add a 1-20 roll to your 0-23 skill, and add on your 3-5 DEX bonus (you'd have high DEX if you took that feat), and then you add 2 for the feat. Hardly reality-altering, surely?
or fight with a sord in each hand or some other such cinematic, capital 'aitch' Heroic type thing.
Yep, that's a fair point. You suffer -2 to your attack rolls when you dual wield, and damage penalties for the off hanfd, so it works out worse overall than using one weapon, but people do it for "reasons of style". That one is undoubtedly cinematic (it's for narrativists), rather than realistic (for simulationists) or powerful (for gamists).
Oh, I'll get there. The game itself has now finished. I'd have some time for writing, if I weren't buried to my ears in the Temple of Elemental Evil crpg.
It seems to me that you're not objecting to T20 having Feats, an on/off mechanic that works alongside the variable Abilties and Skills (different tools for a different jobs). Rather, it seems that you object to what it used them for -- you think they're too hi-falutin' and melodramatic.
If I read you right, then your objection finally makes sense to me. Please ignore everything after this if I didn't grasp your meaning.
So, assuming we're on the same wavelength... I can see why you got that impression, but I don't think it's actually quite as bad as you paint it.
Uh, that one is entirely left out of the feat list Player's Handbook and put in the Dungeon Master's Guide as an option. Since it can be a "rabbit from the hat", GMs may only wish to allow in certain games.... There's advice in the DMG on how it will affect the game and whether DMs should allow it in particular groups/games.
Also, D20 is not D&D. Not all D&D feats are included in other D20 games (and that feat is not in the THB). GMs can add them in at their discretion, but then you're house ruling. [In OTU T20 I might let a 46 year old, high level Barabarian chief have a bunch of minor minions, but that's about it.]
You'd have to rebalance it for T20 though. In D&D it's balanced against other feats because you get lower level followers and they take XP. Level is hugely important in D&D but it counts for less in T20.
or always can fly a reverse triple-dipple loop,
Um, there's a feat called "Acrobatic" which I think gives you +2 to Balance and Tumble checks. So you add a 1-20 roll to your 0-23 skill, and add on your 3-5 DEX bonus (you'd have high DEX if you took that feat), and then you add 2 for the feat. Hardly reality-altering, surely?
or fight with a sord in each hand or some other such cinematic, capital 'aitch' Heroic type thing.
Yep, that's a fair point. You suffer -2 to your attack rolls when you dual wield, and damage penalties for the off hanfd, so it works out worse overall than using one weapon, but people do it for "reasons of style". That one is undoubtedly cinematic (it's for narrativists), rather than realistic (for simulationists) or powerful (for gamists).
Oh, I'll get there. The game itself has now finished. I'd have some time for writing, if I weren't buried to my ears in the Temple of Elemental Evil crpg.
Gallowglass
SOC-12
Missah Whipsnade sah,
((SNIP a load of stuff I agree with))
p.s. As for T20 and D&D... Yes, I agree that the mechanics of D&D and hence T20 systematically encourage a certain style of play (e.g. "kill 'em for the XP"). I houseruled it. That's work I shouldn't need to do if I had the perfect system for the job, but all the other versions of Traveller have some other problem instead so I come out even in the end...
p.p.s. I feel that one should draw a distinction between D20 and "the way longtime D&D players think". E.g. the "I'm level 6, I don't need to worry about that shotgun because my hitpoints will save me" mindset is caused by previous conditioning in D&D, not current use of D20. It's not MJD's fault if lots of ex-D&Ders are suicidal.
</font>[/QUOTE]Minor bit of pedantry: I do think your first p.s. fails to take in to account the point in your second.
More importantly, if T20, or any d20 game for that matter, has D&D hangovers inheirant at the system level, that's a consequence of the designers decisions NOT the d20 system itself (which doesn't require that you use any specific part of the SRD). Levels determining toughness and combat skills (HP and BAB), difficulty to hit being set by armour (AC) etc are things in the SRD one CAN use, not that one has to. The same with Feats, Class Abilities, classes and pretty much anything else that people think of as a D&Dism...
Whether retaining these features for a given d20 game was a good design decison or not is a separate can of worms mind
As to the 'mature' notion: I think Traveller was the first but many RPG's subsequently have used some form of prior seervice, previous experience or background generation system to create already adult and experienced characters as opposed to 'just reached adulthood' novices... both styles have their good points. In broad terms, coming of age stories are often fantasy and mature people facing a crisis are often SF, but I don't think any stronger claim could be made (and I'm not convinced it isn't on over statement any way...)
Cheers
Nick Middleton
Gallowglass
SOC-12
Missah Whipsnade sah,
((SNIP a load of stuff I agree with))
p.s. As for T20 and D&D... Yes, I agree that the mechanics of D&D and hence T20 systematically encourage a certain style of play (e.g. "kill 'em for the XP"). I houseruled it. That's work I shouldn't need to do if I had the perfect system for the job, but all the other versions of Traveller have some other problem instead so I come out even in the end...
p.p.s. I feel that one should draw a distinction between D20 and "the way longtime D&D players think". E.g. the "I'm level 6, I don't need to worry about that shotgun because my hitpoints will save me" mindset is caused by previous conditioning in D&D, not current use of D20. It's not MJD's fault if lots of ex-D&Ders are suicidal.
</font>[/QUOTE]Minor bit of pedantry: I do think your first p.s. fails to take in to account the point in your second.
More importantly, if T20, or any d20 game for that matter, has D&D hangovers inheirant at the system level, that's a consequence of the designers decisions NOT the d20 system itself (which doesn't require that you use any specific part of the SRD). Levels determining toughness and combat skills (HP and BAB), difficulty to hit being set by armour (AC) etc are things in the SRD one CAN use, not that one has to. The same with Feats, Class Abilities, classes and pretty much anything else that people think of as a D&Dism...
Whether retaining these features for a given d20 game was a good design decison or not is a separate can of worms mind
As to the 'mature' notion: I think Traveller was the first but many RPG's subsequently have used some form of prior seervice, previous experience or background generation system to create already adult and experienced characters as opposed to 'just reached adulthood' novices... both styles have their good points. In broad terms, coming of age stories are often fantasy and mature people facing a crisis are often SF, but I don't think any stronger claim could be made (and I'm not convinced it isn't on over statement any way...)
Cheers
Nick Middleton
Um, that's the John Milius / Oliver Stone movie version of Conan, not the original Robert E. Howard fighting all his life Conan.
For your perusal I'm linking two versions of the same character. <walks over and comes back pulling a squirming Asu cursing in 5+ languages>
CT Asu
T20 Asu
Take a look at her feats:
Acrobatics
Armor Proficiency/ Light, Medium, Vacc Suit
Connections/ Streetwise
Hobby/ Disguise
Linguist
Professional Specialty - Juggling
Vessel/ Grav, Ground, Ship's Boat
Weapon Proficiency/ Markswoman, Swordswoman
Zero-G / Low Gravity Adaptation
All of these are either slight bonuses to skills, training in equipment / drivers or pilot certifications or otherwise represent part of her background.
Yeah she can impress a couple of folks or a small audience with juggling and is an expert acrobat / tumbler etc. but guess what? She's been in the Circus / acting troupes since she was 14 until about age 24 and had some raw talent to start with.
And last time I checked there are several real world martial arts styles that do use two weapons at once. And to use them effictively takes several feats.
Here's the clincher:
Stamina: 20
Lifeblood: 7
The ha ha only serious joke for a long time was a wet towel (of DOOM of course) could take the poor tyke out.
Lifeblood really makes a *big* difference in T20 compared to base d20. As well as ditching the idea of having every party member be the same level and the changes in XP.NOTE: The T20 Asu posted is after a level or two of play. Main change was more Technical skills, Japanese, and learning how to use a sword.
For the record CT Asu was generated first for a pbem that never got off the ground and T20 Asu was based on the CT version for IssUrsula . <shrugs> I've found both games to promote a serious and non-cinematic style of play.
<Asu pokes Casey in the ribs, gives him the raspberries and two fingered British Worker's salute, and tumbles offstage>
Casey
Um, that's the John Milius / Oliver Stone movie version of Conan, not the original Robert E. Howard fighting all his life Conan.
For your perusal I'm linking two versions of the same character. <walks over and comes back pulling a squirming Asu cursing in 5+ languages>
CT Asu
T20 Asu
Take a look at her feats:
Acrobatics
Armor Proficiency/ Light, Medium, Vacc Suit
Connections/ Streetwise
Hobby/ Disguise
Linguist
Professional Specialty - Juggling
Vessel/ Grav, Ground, Ship's Boat
Weapon Proficiency/ Markswoman, Swordswoman
Zero-G / Low Gravity Adaptation
All of these are either slight bonuses to skills, training in equipment / drivers or pilot certifications or otherwise represent part of her background.
Yeah she can impress a couple of folks or a small audience with juggling and is an expert acrobat / tumbler etc. but guess what? She's been in the Circus / acting troupes since she was 14 until about age 24 and had some raw talent to start with.
And last time I checked there are several real world martial arts styles that do use two weapons at once. And to use them effictively takes several feats.
Here's the clincher:
Stamina: 20
Lifeblood: 7
The ha ha only serious joke for a long time was a wet towel (of DOOM of course) could take the poor tyke out.
Lifeblood really makes a *big* difference in T20 compared to base d20. As well as ditching the idea of having every party member be the same level and the changes in XP.NOTE: The T20 Asu posted is after a level or two of play. Main change was more Technical skills, Japanese, and learning how to use a sword.
For the record CT Asu was generated first for a pbem that never got off the ground and T20 Asu was based on the CT version for IssUrsula . <shrugs> I've found both games to promote a serious and non-cinematic style of play.
<Asu pokes Casey in the ribs, gives him the raspberries and two fingered British Worker's salute, and tumbles offstage>
Casey
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