Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Just In Time And Space.
Classic Traveller getting stale?
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
Exactly. That is where I see the small-time private free trader that is the typical PC merchant ship.
Of course, you can also assume averages and raise freight and passenger fares by a flat percentage for higher jumps. But if you roll for it, and occasionally have extreme results, you get inspiration for adventure situations right away.
That's kinda like saying bus fares implement a cap on taxi fares. (Also, I would naturally apply variable rates to subsidized ships as well.)
Realistically, passage and freight rates should fluctuate according to supply and demand, but simulating that would be a major hassle with minimum player-side benefit, so random rolls are preferable.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The LBB2 trade game is intended as a minigame for a jump 1 PC owned free trader, it is not an economic model for the entire Imperium.
The free trader is basically an Amazon left overs delivery van.
Supply and demand are catered for by the MegaCorporation traders and liners. The megacorp economic model is very different. They are moving their goods on ships they own and using profit from the sale of the goods to pay for
resource exploitation
resource refining
manufacture
transport
The type A has to offer the same passenger and freight rates as the megacorps impose or customers would just use the megacorporation transport.
The free trader is basically an Amazon left overs delivery van.
Supply and demand are catered for by the MegaCorporation traders and liners. The megacorp economic model is very different. They are moving their goods on ships they own and using profit from the sale of the goods to pay for
resource exploitation
resource refining
manufacture
transport
The type A has to offer the same passenger and freight rates as the megacorps impose or customers would just use the megacorporation transport.
a.) There are many shipping lines in size between megacorporations and free traders, serving different types of markets. Bk7 canon.
b.) Supply and demand are relevant. (That is why mid passages exist.) Bk2 canon.
The fixed prices are a simplification for game purposes. That is fine. Myself, I like to tinker with rules to spice things up a bit and I feel that is a better use of my creativity than coming up with justifications to leave them as they are.
b.) Supply and demand are relevant. (That is why mid passages exist.) Bk2 canon.
The fixed prices are a simplification for game purposes. That is fine. Myself, I like to tinker with rules to spice things up a bit and I feel that is a better use of my creativity than coming up with justifications to leave them as they are.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I consider the Bk 7 version of trade an even worse attempt than LBB2.
It seeks to describe the economy of everything from megacorportation lines to free traders and thus achieves neither.
It seeks to describe the economy of everything from megacorportation lines to free traders and thus achieves neither.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
I agree.
LBB7 ramped up the complexity (to 11!) of the trading system for almost no real gain in actual playability.
The net result wound up being essentially "small whirlpools" within which trading could happen, but with big boundaries against going anywhere else. So you could wind up with a grouping of 2/3/4 star systems you could circulate around (indefinitely) without ever having any reason to (profitably) leave that cluster. The end result (from an adventuring standpoint) was ... well ... one of these ...
Picking up a macroecon text would help. Though when I had it back ten years ago or so, the young woman sitting next to me at my table looked at it, and blanched saying "it's full of math", and I replied "it's like physics" meaning it has its own equations, that didn't exactly settle her, as she said she'd never had physics. Granted, most grad students take chemistry for their science credit.
Suffice to say that +90% of tonnage will be moved by big shipping companies, on long term contracts. PC ships are more of a OTC or spot market.
Suffice to say that +90% of tonnage will be moved by big shipping companies, on long term contracts. PC ships are more of a OTC or spot market.
I appreciate this is all from a gaming angle, and from that angle you're right.
But from the "real world" angle, outsider of how much it weighs and worrying about the placement of the loads for balance purposes, the freight haulers really Do Not Care what they're hauling. All they care about is that their hold is full to get more Cr per trip.
I don't know how much different the tramp freight market is from the trucking market. I don't think there's much "tramp" air frieght, to be honest. Even in Africa.
This is an interesting resource for independent truckers: https://schneiderowneroperators.com/owner-operator-tips/how-to-get-loads-owner-operator
Here is a loadboard that you can see some loads that are available without having to sign in or register. I don't know how folks get paid for these. But it's interesting nonetheless, and not that much different from what the freight system already does.
Best load board to find truck loads and freight for truckers
The best load board for truckers to find loads and search for freight in the US and Canada.
But, in the end, yea, I think freight is supposed to be boring.
I would so like to get one of those cat wheels for my cats. I just don't dare. They're expensive, apparently you can't return them, and if you know anything about cats, they are the finickiest creatures about what they do and don't like. So I don't want to drop the $$$ only to have the cats stare at it, rub on it once, and then go play with the free cardboard box or wrapping paper it came in.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Think about this.
How much trade in moving around on one of the big beasts of the Marches?
Mora is industrial, TL F and has a population of tens of billions. It manufactures everything the population could wish for, now how much does it manufacture for off world trade? Enough for a billion people elsewhere in the Marches - more? less?
Does the LBB2 or LBB7 trade system model this?
How much trade in moving around on one of the big beasts of the Marches?
Mora is industrial, TL F and has a population of tens of billions. It manufactures everything the population could wish for, now how much does it manufacture for off world trade? Enough for a billion people elsewhere in the Marches - more? less?
Does the LBB2 or LBB7 trade system model this?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I would be more worried about off world dumping.
The immediate region around Mora might be an industrial desert.
The immediate region around Mora might be an industrial desert.
In that region, you have one similarly large world (Fornice) of slightly lower tech level, so that would probably be an actual trading partner (cheap from Fornice <-> high technology from Mora). You have two pop 8 worlds which may figure as minor markets and sources of specialty products. And you have a bunch of low-pop worlds which do not even make up for a rounding error in Mora's GDP several digits down.
To compare: Fornice may be about as important to Mora as a trading partner as India is to the US as a whole. The two pop 8 worlds about as important as Sierra Leone and Guaetemala. And other worlds ranging in relative importance as a trading partner from "Liechtenstein" to "a small village in rural Austria."
There should be. There isn't.
But yes, there really should be, and the modifier should be based on cost for the most-efficient available ship to make the multi-parsec trip. That is, assume that such ships exist, and by existing are the ones that set the baseline price. On the other hand, the market for multi-parsec cargo jumps is generally smaller than that for single-parsec cargo jumps (there's less cargo that's worth the higher freight costs).
Indeed. Part of the problem is that "shipping cheapest" under Traveller's cargo rules is "shipping below cost," which doesn't provide incentives for carriers to enter the market. That's papered over in the "big ship universe" iteration by saying that megacorps have huge high-Jn traffic flows that happen well outside the B2/B7 trading system.
What's missing is the "next step up" from the "fill a 200Td cargo hold" freight market. That is, what your players will be operating in once they've started building a fleet of 1-2000Td freighters.
To be fair, modeling it is a hard problem. Faking such a model well enough for the purposes of a role-playing game might be a lot easier...
And the big reason the rules don't go there is that by that point, the player characters are likely acting more as corporate executives than starship crews, so the finances and operation of the shipping fleet can be abstracted away. ("Each of your Big Boxy Freighters earns you MCr X per year. No, I'm not going to explain the details, and you don't need them anyhow.")
Last edited:
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Vertical integration.
Horizontal would probably land you in an anti trust investigation, but you could ship goods made in your own factories and retailed in stores owned by you; probably you also own the mines and energy companies.
If freight rates are fixed, it wouldn't be a question of finding the most competitive shipping line.
Horizontal would probably land you in an anti trust investigation, but you could ship goods made in your own factories and retailed in stores owned by you; probably you also own the mines and energy companies.
If freight rates are fixed, it wouldn't be a question of finding the most competitive shipping line.
"Anti-trust"? Was that some old Solmani religion or something? 
Yes, the Third Imperium (as with its precursors) is absolutely an incestuous system of self-dealing and exploitation. That's what makes it work!
Specifically, it's based on "honest graft" (as defined by Tammany Hall pol George W. Plunkett). "In one of his speeches, quoted in Plunkitt of Tammany Hall, he describes the difference between dishonest and honest graft. For dishonest graft, one works solely for one's own interests. For honest graft, one pursues, at the same time, the interests of one's party, state, and person."
Doesn't seem to me like a preferred policy in the real world. In the OTU? It's a fair enough rationalization for a fictional galactic empire that's not inherently evil.
Yes, the Third Imperium (as with its precursors) is absolutely an incestuous system of self-dealing and exploitation. That's what makes it work!
Specifically, it's based on "honest graft" (as defined by Tammany Hall pol George W. Plunkett). "In one of his speeches, quoted in Plunkitt of Tammany Hall, he describes the difference between dishonest and honest graft. For dishonest graft, one works solely for one's own interests. For honest graft, one pursues, at the same time, the interests of one's party, state, and person."
Doesn't seem to me like a preferred policy in the real world. In the OTU? It's a fair enough rationalization for a fictional galactic empire that's not inherently evil.
Last edited:
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
More like, I don't trust you not to leverage your market position to screw over the consumers electorate.
One can make money on a J1 pure cargo design even at TL9 HG-80... assuming one can keep it full.
See https://www.travellerrpg.com/index....otential-mercantile-revenue.41616/post-647667 for worked cargo box price per ton results. These include having a gun and gunner. (one per ship for mail purposes, so the fill might not be as bad.). At the worst end of the stick is the Type A, making, assuming full load, a measly Cr12 per ton...
I can't upload a nice copy of the sheet, since the doc was originally in Apple's Numbers format, and I no longer have a working Mac new enough to read the format. (Apple changed the format several times. My oldest theoretically working mac is too old to open it.) And Libre Office mangles the layouts.
And a certain person didn't remember to export PDFs of the sheets, and the excel export purged the sheet names...
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
There's and easy fix for that problem ... it's called a laser pointer.
Put the laser point 1/3 of the way up the inside of the wheel (where the cat will chase it to "kill" it).
After that, it's mostly a question of endurance.
Habituate your cats to running on the wheel (after the laser pointer if necessary) and pretty soon they'll figure out all on their own how to run the thing without needing your help.
This is, honestly, one of the great fallacies of thinking about the LBB2 trading system.
While it is "the same for all adventurer Travellers" it's NOT "the same for everyone" (so to speak).
The LBB2 trade rules also contain an ... inflection point ... within them, which is not inherently obvious at first glance.
That inflection point IS the jump range ... but again, it's not inherently obvious ... and it isn't always a necessary consideration, so sometimes it's important and sometimes it isn't.
The difference is the opportunity for speculation increases as range increases (with diminishing returns beyond J3-4).
With longer jump range on a starship, it gets ... easier ... to tramp around looking for speculative cargoes that you can buy/sell yourself. With longer range giving you a wider latitude of possible destinations, it becomes much EASIER to "stack the deck" in your own favor for making a profit on speculative goods (which is where the REAL profit potential is to be found!). Depending on what speculative goods are available for purchase (and at what price) can then determine the "best market" to resell those speculative goods into ... and having a longer jump range makes more potential destination markets available to you, making it easier to find the "best fit" for what you just bought.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the business model for clipper ship (J3+) operations is one in which they don't necessarily need to break even on every jump ... they just don't want to be "too negative" on the balance sheet if the speculation opportunities at their current destination aren't all that favorable. Having a "slow leak" into the red on the balance sheet is FINE ... so long as every time you jump there's a new opportunity for a favorable arbitrage on speculative goods. Stick to the buy low/sell high arrangement and just let the speculative goods you DO wind up purchasing dictate your destination when you've got speculative goods aboard (so as to pick the most favorable markets to sell into) and you'll have successfully "stacked the deck in your favor" on the speculation game.
No, you won't "win" every single time you speculate like that, but done right (and with broker assistance when it can make the most difference to sales!) you'll tend to win more than you lose on speculation ... and having a longer jump range (J3-4) makes that SO MUCH EASIER to do than piddling around with only J1-2.
With J1-2, you're almost at the mercy of THE MAP for where you can go next (especially if you're a J1 trader on a main!) because you can only jump into adjacent star systems (or nearly adjacent in the case of a J2 trader). But with a J3+ trader, you have so many more potential destinations that your focus shifts from needing to have full manifests in order to turn a profit per jump over into "playing hopscotch" for the most favorable buy/sell DMs matchups based on what speculative cargoes are available to you wherever you go ... with the "best destination for THESE speculative goods" changing all the time, based on what you're carrying.
So the J3+ clipper ship "trading game" is oriented more towards speculation, with cargo freight and passenger revenues as supplements to the bottom line (since freight rates and passenger rates are "low density revenues" per ton, compared to speculation) ... while the J1-2 free/far trader "trading game" is much more heavily dependent upon full manifests of freight and cargo, with speculation on the side (when possible/favorable).
Basically, the J3+ clipper ships make for better speculation prospectors than the J1-2 trader ships do.
It takes more MCr to own and operate a J3+ clipper ship (to build, to maintain, to crew, etc.) ... but the J3+ clipper ships can more reliably turn a better profit on speculative goods than the slower J1-2 traders can (by having a wider variety of destinations), effectively putting the J3+ clipper ships into a somewhat "different market" from their slower "junior" ships operating on J1-2. The different types of traders use the same trading rules to ply their respective trades ... but HOW they can take advantage of those rules (and in what ways) CHANGES as the jump range increases.
J1-2: freight and passengers (primarily, to break even) ... with speculation on the side when possible/favorable (to attempt windfall profits)
J3+: speculation (primarily, easier to choose best arbitrage destinations!) ... with freight and passengers (as sideshow supplements)
That's two very different business models.
Trying to compare those apples to those oranges is going to be something of a mug's game ... especially in a "void on a spreadsheet" where you aren't even working with a MAP of a particular region to jump around in (Five Sisters, District 268, Vilis, Regina, Lanth and Aramis subsectors are all radically different market contexts to work within!).
If you are trying to shoehorn the J3+ clipper ships into the J1-2 paradigm model, that's a bit like trying to use a Formula 1 car as your "daily commuter sedan" ground car. Yes, a Formula 1 and a sedan are both ground cars ... but they're built for (and used for!) radically different purposes in different contexts.
In other words ... even within the confines of LBB2 trade RAW ... there's "more than one way to play the trading game" within that single set of rules.
As jump range increases ... the opportunities in the "trading game" shift and change, enough so that what "works" for a J1-2 trader doesn't necessarily (need to) apply to a J3+ clipper ship. The operational paradigm changes ... ESPECIALLY if there are Drop Tank Rental Services available!
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Take a look at this "slice" of the Spinward Marches between the Five Sisters and District 268.
Going from Karin/Five Sisters or Iderati/Five Sisters to Collace/District 268 is a 7 parsec haul in a direct line.
A J4 clipper needing to transit from Karin to Collace could take a route of:
No drop tanks: Karin (agricultural+rich) <> Wonstar (agricultural) <> Inchin (non-industrial) <> Collace (industrial)
With drop tanks: Karin (agricultural+rich) <> Deep Space <> Collace (industrial)
A J4 clipper needing to transit from Iderati to Collace could take a route of:
No drop tanks: Iderati (agricultural+rich) <> Squallia (non-industrial) <> Dallia (rich) <> Collace (industrial)
With drop tanks: Iderati (agricultural+rich) <> Deep Space <> Collace (industrial)
As you can see from this map slice, there's a pretty sweet selection of markets to choose from if you want to "play the odds" of the speculation trading game, making profits through arbitrage ... but having a larger jump range makes all of that SO MUCH EASIER to manage and play for as a tramp speculator. Being stuck on the Spinward Main through the Sisters Cluster, the Bowman Arm and the Collace Arm in a J1-2 free/far trader in this region of space would be way more trouble than it is worth (and it would take MONTHS to transit from Karin/Iderati to Collace and back, just because to the arrangement of the star systems on the map!).
Think about it ...
Short range means a short list of possible destinations ... meaning a narrower range of possibilities for (favorable) arbitrage on speculative cargoes.
This is why I've gone to such lengths with my Five Sisters Clipper design research (which now needs yet ANOTHER overhaul due to recent discoveries and realizations, thanks to the vastly more useful Optimal Drive Usage research done on LBB2 drive letter tables) ... because I'm quite sure that there is untapped potential (both merchant and adventure!) in the J3+ clipper ship market.
The Five Sisters to Collace runs basically need a J4 clipper design.
The J-5 Trans-Rift Hierate Route realistically "wants" a J3+3 clipper design to get the "double jump to 5-6 parsecs" range needed, which then makes for a nice low tech (TL=10-11) LBB2 standard drives clipper design possible, most likely using G/H drives (450 ton form factor) or J/K drives (600 ton form factor) that can transit the Trans-Rift Route relatively seamlessly with decent cargo capacity ... particularly if there's "cargo flex for fuel" capability due to a collapsible fuel tank involved.
All of this Clipper Ships For A Region™ stuff is basically an "unexplored frontier" in ship design within CT, so ... of course it's drawn my interest to try and map out the space for what can be done (and how viable are the prospects with it).
Going from Karin/Five Sisters or Iderati/Five Sisters to Collace/District 268 is a 7 parsec haul in a direct line.
A J4 clipper needing to transit from Karin to Collace could take a route of:
No drop tanks: Karin (agricultural+rich) <> Wonstar (agricultural) <> Inchin (non-industrial) <> Collace (industrial)
With drop tanks: Karin (agricultural+rich) <> Deep Space <> Collace (industrial)
A J4 clipper needing to transit from Iderati to Collace could take a route of:
No drop tanks: Iderati (agricultural+rich) <> Squallia (non-industrial) <> Dallia (rich) <> Collace (industrial)
With drop tanks: Iderati (agricultural+rich) <> Deep Space <> Collace (industrial)
As you can see from this map slice, there's a pretty sweet selection of markets to choose from if you want to "play the odds" of the speculation trading game, making profits through arbitrage ... but having a larger jump range makes all of that SO MUCH EASIER to manage and play for as a tramp speculator. Being stuck on the Spinward Main through the Sisters Cluster, the Bowman Arm and the Collace Arm in a J1-2 free/far trader in this region of space would be way more trouble than it is worth (and it would take MONTHS to transit from Karin/Iderati to Collace and back, just because to the arrangement of the star systems on the map!).
Think about it ...
Short range means a short list of possible destinations ... meaning a narrower range of possibilities for (favorable) arbitrage on speculative cargoes.
This is why I've gone to such lengths with my Five Sisters Clipper design research (which now needs yet ANOTHER overhaul due to recent discoveries and realizations, thanks to the vastly more useful Optimal Drive Usage research done on LBB2 drive letter tables) ... because I'm quite sure that there is untapped potential (both merchant and adventure!) in the J3+ clipper ship market.
The Five Sisters to Collace runs basically need a J4 clipper design.
The J-5 Trans-Rift Hierate Route realistically "wants" a J3+3 clipper design to get the "double jump to 5-6 parsecs" range needed, which then makes for a nice low tech (TL=10-11) LBB2 standard drives clipper design possible, most likely using G/H drives (450 ton form factor) or J/K drives (600 ton form factor) that can transit the Trans-Rift Route relatively seamlessly with decent cargo capacity ... particularly if there's "cargo flex for fuel" capability due to a collapsible fuel tank involved.
All of this Clipper Ships For A Region™ stuff is basically an "unexplored frontier" in ship design within CT, so ... of course it's drawn my interest to try and map out the space for what can be done (and how viable are the prospects with it).
Last edited:
