Classic Traveller getting stale?
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
I have been tempted to run that with CT....
Also moving to a more "frontier" sector like Far Frontiers, Reavers Deep, Dark Nebula, The Beyond, etc makes more sense. A more open, and less settled area can have a lot of potential.
Also taking clues from such movies as Extraction and Extraction 2, the Marlboro Man, Buckaroo Banzai, John Wick, or such can add a whole lot of spice to a Universe.
Also taking clues from such movies as Extraction and Extraction 2, the Marlboro Man, Buckaroo Banzai, John Wick, or such can add a whole lot of spice to a Universe.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Not to put too fine a point on it ... you don't even need to go that far if you still want to play in LBB S3 Spinward Marches.
The Five Sisters subsector is "far enough on the fringe" to make for a more open/less settled area, surrounded on all four sides by subsectors that are not imperial territory.
It's actually kind of remarkable how similar "Republic of Regina in the 1900s" is as a setting for a campaign in the Five Sisters subsector in the 1000-1110 years.
- Republic of Regina: Pocket Empire? (yes)
- Five Sisters: Pocket Empire? (effectively, as a result of sheer distance)
- Republic of Regina: surrounded by Wilds? (yes)
- Five Sisters: surrounded by Wilds? (YES!)
- Republic of Regina: technology level? (13-16, 17 @ Boughene, prototype hop drives)
- Five Sisters: technology level? (9-12, 13 @ Collace and Lunion, 15 @ Glisten)
I keep coming back to the idea that setting a campaign in and around the Five Sisters in the 1090s (shortly after the Fourth Frontier War, but still a decade before the Fifth Frontier War) ought to make for a very compelling option for Referees and Players alike. You get the "fringes of civilization" vibe without having to "destroy the OTU" in order to achieve that outcome (ala Virus and Empress Wave). Technology is high enough for interstellar trade and travel (TL=9-12) but isn't so overwhelmingly awesome that everything else feels like Vendor Trash™ (because TL=15 or stop playing!). The Five Sisters are "far enough away" from the rest of imperial controlled space that "selfish sufficiency" becomes an important factor due to the needs of survival and supply lines. The subsector feels like a frontier outpost, rather than having a sense of being part of an impossibly large amorphous "blob" of star systems that extends beyond the confines of the (sector) map.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
"Looks like backwater boonies that no one ought to care about. I'm going to follow the herd and not care."
"Why aren't there any frontier locations available for us to explore outwards from?!?!?!?"
It's the age old min/max powergamer instinct.
If it's not THE BEST™ ... then it's vendor trash.
That's part of the beauty of setting up a campaign all the way out in the Five Sisters subsector.
Sure, TL=15 stuff "exists" in the universe, but ... it's not from around here (and if it breaks, no one local can fix it for you).
If you want use STUFF™ that is sustainable using local resources, you're going to have to learn to live with a lower "standard" tech level for your gear ... which in and of itself changes a tremendous number of assumptions about "what is GOOD?" that both Players and Referees might have and default to.
As soon as you switch from only wanting THE BESTEST STUFFS (because they're TL=15 bestest!) to being willing to settle for Good Enough To Get The Job Done in a way that can be maintained and sustained for the long(er) haul, life starts getting more interesting for both Players and Referees.
If you take the perspective that the government type represents the vast majority of the planet, but not the entire populace of one, you can do a lot more on each world. That doesn't mean treating every planet as balkanised, because that'd be silly for systems with a mainworld population in the millions or less. But that's one way to introduce opportunities for scenarios.
Another is to have more corporate intrigue, linked to political machinations (because oligarchs love to own pet politicians), so that even in systems where there's a single political system running the place, things aren't entirely homogeneous or certain.
When I was running a campaign in the 3I that's how I broke the "boring" up; it was just perspective that needed to be reframed.
Another is to have more corporate intrigue, linked to political machinations (because oligarchs love to own pet politicians), so that even in systems where there's a single political system running the place, things aren't entirely homogeneous or certain.
When I was running a campaign in the 3I that's how I broke the "boring" up; it was just perspective that needed to be reframed.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Someone did, and even during the CT run. Much of the material we have now for Trojan Reach sits on the foundation of Mike Jackson's Third Imperium fanzine, released right at the end of Classic in 1986.
Third Imperium Fanzine
If I want government spice, I’ll treat the rolled government as government type experienced at the personal level, and then make another roll for the actual high level government. The mixes can make for some real creativity/gymnastics to explain the combos.
It was anything but stale. I think what really happened after a few years is it become old for them. The marches alone and the surrounding sectors with the right group could be twenty years of excitement. I always said the rewind the clock and do the old earth union. The only problem as I have always seen it is the inability to maintain a living breathing games system that didn’t require editions. In contrast as well as for example the whole exo planet discoveries turned the system generation system on its head. Nor did we foresee the exponential increase in computing power ( ships computers sizes and such needed to be addressed). I have always sneered at the notion of new editions. Nothing was wrong with 1st ed. AD&D, or Strombringer, or Runequest. Just like CT… the ability to let it evolve without, the greedy need to publish new editions. CT’s straightforward simplicity was its appeal as well as dying in Char Gen. I loved the fact CT made you work math… hence my parents loved it. I actually learned some science from it. Each person who loves CT can help keep it alive. I think if we could ever get the CT journal back up and then just focus on the getting the 8 books edited and brought current it would be a sell. T5 Flopped IMO because it wasn’t in LBBs. An example is Necrotic Gnomes OSR: Old School Essentials in A5 Format is popular to the point they are sold out on exalted furneral site. The simplicity and lack of complexity is its selling point as well as it small compact space requirement compared to large flashing expensive books. And yet again I ramble on…. Off to eat my chocolate pudding
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The fall of the Imperium was there for all to see from the very first adventures and supplements.
On the frontier, the Spinward Marches, there was an awful lot of unrest and dissent, not to mention blatant Imperial corruption and oppression.
Then in S:3 we are told the Imperium is:
"the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest. Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from i t s neighboring interstellar governments, and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had."
This conjured to me images of the fall of the roman empire and the Foundation Galactic Empire.
The thing that made the Third Imperium boring was the Fifth Frontier War, it was boring to have three years of TAS News with nothing but battle reports. Prior to the war the TAS News items were full of adventure seeds and setting details.
No sooner has the FFW concluded and it looked like we were going back to interesting stuff - the jumpspace accident survivor - they had already made the decision to do MegaTraveller - and what a mess that was. It could have been so different, there is a lot of good stuff in MT - but the setting did not do the one thing that should be done, show what a group of PCs do in the setting.
Why was there no adventure set during the assassination of the Emperor? The PCs could have been visiting, trading, or serving military forced to flee. Involve PCs with the Lt. Windhook story. The PCs could aid his escape, or meet him at a later date.
Instead we start 5 years after the assassination, fleet actions, invasions - and do what? Eventually we would get Hard Times but it was too little too late.
So then they choose to flatten the setting, change the rule system.
CT was never all about the Third Imperium, but it was ruined by being tied to the Third Imperium.
On the frontier, the Spinward Marches, there was an awful lot of unrest and dissent, not to mention blatant Imperial corruption and oppression.
Then in S:3 we are told the Imperium is:
"the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest. Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from i t s neighboring interstellar governments, and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had."
This conjured to me images of the fall of the roman empire and the Foundation Galactic Empire.
The thing that made the Third Imperium boring was the Fifth Frontier War, it was boring to have three years of TAS News with nothing but battle reports. Prior to the war the TAS News items were full of adventure seeds and setting details.
No sooner has the FFW concluded and it looked like we were going back to interesting stuff - the jumpspace accident survivor - they had already made the decision to do MegaTraveller - and what a mess that was. It could have been so different, there is a lot of good stuff in MT - but the setting did not do the one thing that should be done, show what a group of PCs do in the setting.
Why was there no adventure set during the assassination of the Emperor? The PCs could have been visiting, trading, or serving military forced to flee. Involve PCs with the Lt. Windhook story. The PCs could aid his escape, or meet him at a later date.
Instead we start 5 years after the assassination, fleet actions, invasions - and do what? Eventually we would get Hard Times but it was too little too late.
So then they choose to flatten the setting, change the rule system.
CT was never all about the Third Imperium, but it was ruined by being tied to the Third Imperium.
Well I never saw it that way. The barbarians were not at the gates. Maybe at T.I. 1200 the cracks would have appeared. In my little corner of the Marches as a Swordie (Sacnoth) Naval Officer with his merry band of Vargr corsairs we were have a grand ole time in the Metal worlds and Lunion subsector. My Impie Marine was killed was killed on New Rome in the Glisten subsector as an advisor ( nostalgia he survived a starship crash and was done in by a landmine.)
As far as the unrest and tension that is what in my opinion made it great. It was huge and anything could happen. I don’t see a difference than what we are experiencing today in RL.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
I interpret that as a case of "not being blinded by dreams of utopia" more than anything else.
Even when a polity is prosperous and "things are going well" under benevolent governance, there will be malcontents lurking about eager to stir up trouble. Interested Parties™ will always be trying to advance their own parochial self-(ish) interests over the whole. It was an acknowledgement that the Third Imperium was not a "perfected society" that was all harmony and unity.
Besides, those pockets of unrest and dissent, as you cite, along with corruption and oppression, as you cite ... created all kinds of opportunities for adventure seeds and adventure hooks.
Which then begs the question ... where are these neighboring interstellar governments?
Look at the Spinward Marches sector map.
The Third Imperium "owns" HALF of the map outright (Regina, Lanth, Lunion, Glisten, Aramis, Rhylanor, Mora, Trin's Veil).
In the other half of the map, the Third Imperium is dominant in 3 of the 8 subsectors (Five Sisters, Jewell, Vilis).
It's difficult to look at that map and think that the Third Imperium, as a polity, is "seriously threatened" by the Darrians (allied protectorate of the Third Imperium), the Sword Worlds (aggressive, but limited to TL=11-12 and having only ONE type A starport to build starships at in LBB S3) or even the Zhodani ... who hold an "oddly shaped corner of the map" that combined amounts to a single subsector's worth of worlds that have a relatively inconvenient set of trade codes (so they're not even as powerful, collectively, as the Sword Worlds).
The Vargr aren't even on the map of the Spinward Marches.
The Aslan are over a sector away to rimward.
With a technological advantage (TL=F), the only "real threat" to the Third Imperium in the Spinward Marches (militarily) was ossified incompetence, complacency and corruption eating away at the muscles and bones of "power" (both hard and soft) from WITHIN the Third Imperium, rather than any kind of external pressure from neighboring interstellar governments imposed from without.
Agreed.
The way that the Fifth Frontier War "blew up out of nowhere" felt like more of a "forced narrative" rather than something that developed organically with "plenty of warning" for the franchise. It was a "shocking development" that felt like it came out of nowhere ... much like the assassination of Strephon.
Carefully build the sand castle ... then STOMP ALL OVER IT before the tide comes in to claim it.
Yes, yes, I know ... there were hints and nuggets and tips and tidbits getting dropped here, there and everywhere in the adventure books prior to the FFW kicking off, but those were all disparate unconnected threads that weren't laying the ground work for a three-way sneak attack into the Jewell, Vilis and Regina subsectors. If you hadn't been buying EVERY book and EVERY JTAS supplement, you had no basis for understanding where the FFW came from ... let alone what events might have precipitated or foreshadowed it.
Which made the whole FFW "event" feel like a GOTCHA! rather than something that the setting had been carefully and methodically laying the groundwork for. It was like one of the old mystery novel tropes where the detective reveals withheld clues and information at the end, including details about characters previously unknown until the last 5 pages of the book (in other words, the author "cheated" their audience and readers).
Then the same stunt got pulled AGAIN with the assassination of Strephon ... for shock value.
It was almost like the people in editorial control of Traveller were taunting the Referees and Players ... "We know something YOU DON'T KNOW!"
And it happened AGAIN with the Empress Wave nonsense.
And the Virus nonsense.
Just ROFLstomp after ROFLstomp after ROFLstomp ... until the OTU was barely recognizable anymore.
There is an almost universal tendency in RPGs to turn the setting into a narrative. I'm not a fan in general. and I feel such an approach was particularly unsuited for the OTU. Quickly pushing big changes(tm) in a setting so vast it literally takes several years for news to get from one end of the setting's main polity to the other simply did not work. At worst, it actually hindered play in the setting because how your free-wheeling space traders, or mercenaries, or interstellar playboys were faring took second (or more like tenth) seat to increasingly implausible political developments in which they had no involvement or personal stakes.Then the same stunt got pulled AGAIN with the assassination of Strephon ... for shock value.
It was almost like the people in editorial control of Traveller were taunting the Referees and Players ... "We know something YOU DON'T KNOW!"
A stable setting with a vast, possibly decadent and slowly decaying Imperium was a perfect backdrop for stories of people who were trying to make their way in that setting. It was so large and versatile that you could easily incorporate enormous ambitions on the part of the PCs (like ruling interstellar states with tens of billions of inhabitants) and still not have to shake up the setting's overall foundations.
Why GDW felt they had to shake up the setting's overall foundations (several times in a row) nonetheless, I'm not sure. I think a distinct lack of player-group perspective may be responsible. When you are viewing things from the top-down perspective of a setting writer, you naturally start to assume that perspective is what's interesting and relevant about your setting. When, for players, it really is not so much.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Think of the Spinward Marches as Asia Minor.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
On the scale of a single PC group, this makes perfect sense ... since the PCs are the perspective "into" the game world.
Having lots of LITTLE narratives, all competing with each other, makes plenty of sense.
Having the game publishers just come in and BIGFOOT THE UNIVERSE ... repeatedly ... is (to put it politely) ... counter-productive.
I heartily agree.
A veneer of stability is somewhat necessary as a springboard to all kinds of adventure shenanigans being possible.
My postulate is that Traveller works best when the PCs are NOT the "center of the universe" (the chosen ones, foretold by prophecy immemorial ... blah blah blah, yakkity smack) and that the PCs "have NO DESTINY to fulfill" because they are NOT the chosen ones, foretold by prophecy immemorial ... blah blah blah, skip ahead Brother Maynard.
It's alright for there to be Epic Stuffs™ happening in the background/backdrop of YTU, but that stuff ought to remain in the background. If the universe has a Space Opera happening, the PCs are not the main stars (or even the main cast members) of that Space Opera. The PCs might "run across the stage" of a Space Opera already in progress, but the appearance of the PCs in that Space Opera should be brief and transitory (hence, "running across the stage") to create consternation and a plot twist in that Space Opera (because the PCs weren't supposed to be there!).
Traveller is, at its core, NOT about extraordinary people doing amazing things. Traveller is not a "superhero genre" type of game to play.
Traveller is really about ORDINARY people who find themselves in potentially extraordinary circumstances.
Some people are born great.
Some people become great.
Some people have greatness thrust upon them.
... and sometimes the "thrusting" of greatness is done with an unfairly powerful blunt force trauma tool that no one wants to be on the receiving end of.
The beauty of Traveller, as a setting (especially in the CT "Golden Era") was that otherwise "ordinary people" could have extraordinary adventures. Just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but with the right people, could be the start of a very interesting collection of stories and escapism into science fantasy.
Marcatlas
SOC-12
Earth has been balkanized forever so not a problem on a world with even hundreds of thousands. In fact I think that there are more individual countries today than 20 years ago. Empirical data suggests humans self segregate naturally rather than unite naturally
