Closed Starship Environment - Recycling & Conservation

[Patron Zero]

Mind I have a huge peeve in the real world about the waste of materials and resources but won't rant here regarding such other than to say think before you consume-dispose or discard in your daily lives.


Accepted that a starship is it's own closed Eco-system of sorts and in such that obvious measures to conserve and recycle materials and resources is a given. Obviously oxygen is a necessity, more-so the removal of carbon dioxide is unavoidable as would be the reclamation of waste water to prevent the need of frequent dumping of such and demand for acquiring new potable sources.

Past those needs-required elements, how much more aboard ship can made efficient in both material consumption and the energy required to recover such ?

 

[Fritz_Brown]

If you use some sort of nanotechnology to break down things into their constituent elements, you could turn almost anything back into raw material for your 3D printers.

OK, some things you probably don't want to re-use..........

 

[Whipsnade]

Accepted that a starship is it's own closed Eco-system of sorts and in such that obvious measures to conserve and recycle materials and resources is a given.

That's neither accepted nor given.

Everyday starships in the OTU setting are no more of a closed eco-system than a current day SSN. The power available aboard makes purifying/recycling air and water trivial while food and all the rest are quite literally consumables which require regular resupply. Everyday starships in the OTU setting literally dart from port to port rarely spending more than ~250 hours "in" space and away from support facilities. Even those vessels which do spend longer periods of time away from port get by, as illustrated in Beltstrike and elsewhere, by simply loading up more consumables for the voyage.

There will be vessels with the level of recycling you're proposing, they'll be rare however. Rules for their needs can be found in GT and, IIRC, both versions of FF&S.

The level of recycling you're proposing will be found most often in those habitats not found on "shirtsleeve" worlds.

 

[atpollard]

OK, some things you probably don't want to re-use..........

I may have just been converted to the Anti-Green movement by that story.
I need to buy an SUV, mount a shotgun in the back and go kill animals to make sure what the heck I am eating.

On a more on-topic note, the resources of space mean that things like metals and water are, for all practical purposes, infinite. That is not a recipe for more recycling on starships.

Ironically, your organic waste is one of the most limited resources in space ... there are people who will pay good money to clean out your starship septic tank and use the organic compounds to convert sand into soil or fertilizer to grow food. Of course the high frequency of habitable worlds in the Traveller universe, makes even that less scarce than it is in the real universe.

 

[aramis]

There will be vessels with the level of recycling you're proposing, they'll be rare however. Rules for their needs can be found in GT and, IIRC, both versions of FF&S.

Not in FF&S 1 for TNE; only in FF&S 2 for T4 and somewhere in GURPS.

 

[savage]

Mind I have a huge peeve in the real world about the waste of materials and resources but won't rant here regarding such other than to say think before you consume-dispose or discard in your daily lives.


Past those needs-required elements, how much more aboard ship can made efficient in both material consumption and the energy required to recover such ?

This changes the nature of the parts shop. Many pieces can be repaired on ship. However, extreme environment engine parts, for example, would probably still require factory development and testing.

Bio 3d-printing revolutionizes the medical bay given an experienced doctor.

Food synthesis still requires raw materials, for nutritional value, since consumed materials are altered when consumed. Note that human compost is not used to fertilize human crops.

Tech level is of course relevant as well.

 

[HG_B]

Past those needs-required elements, how much more aboard ship can made efficient in both material consumption and the energy required to recover such ?

IMTU ships >TL 13 reclaim H2O from everything and separate C from CO2. So those 2 items are not something a ship will run out of in most game situations. All other organic waste (after dehydration) is compressed and packaged from disposal ay the next starport.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I figured out a while back that a Traveller's food for one month doesn't have to be any bigger that 2 square feet (96 meals in 12" x 12" x 1" food containers) and could fit under their bunk. Which means that's about how much solid waste that would be accumulated in a month, minus the food packaging and utensils (or including the food packaging, if you like) and any fluids siphoned off, per person. Should be easily storable as part of the life-support system - and could be stored in a tank under each bunk or at a central location. Just dump the waste at the next refuel, just like an RV does. Or once a month. No need to recycle aboard ship.

 

[pennshome723]

I think I figured out a while back that a Traveller's food for one month doesn't have to be any bigger that 2 square feet (96 meals in 12" x 12" x 1" food containers) and could fit under their bunk. Which means that's about how much solid waste that would be accumulated in a month, minus the food packaging and utensils (or including the food packaging, if you like) and any fluids siphoned off, per person. Should be easily storable as part of the life-support system - and could be stored in a tank under each bunk or at a central location. Just dump the waste at the next refuel, just like an RV does. Or once a month. No need to recycle aboard ship.

I am guessing it gets 'dumped' in space too :devil:!!!

 

[HG_B]

I am guessing it gets 'dumped' in space too :devil:!!!

Come to think about it, you could jettison while in jump space.

 

[Reban]

"Dumping" in space could be hazardous as the matter would freeze (or possibly sublimate in a comet like fashion? ) and cause a hazard to navigation. Imagine having that go splat on your viewport. It would probably punch through and cause damage.

One role for planetary space patrols in the 100D limit would be policing poopers. Whats the fine if you fail to scoop the poop?

Okay so for lifeboats it might be a better idea to remove the waste products from the habitable area so maybe jettisoning them is better.

 

[pennshome723]

"Dumping" in space could be hazardous as the matter would freeze (or possibly sublimate in a comet like fashion? ) and cause a hazard to navigation. Imagine having that go splat on your viewport. It would probably punch through and cause damage.

One role for planetary space patrols in the 100D limit would be policing poopers. Whats the fine if you fail to scoop the poop?

Okay so for lifeboats it might be a better idea to remove the waste products from the habitable area so maybe jettisoning them is better.

:rofl:Shit Happens!!!:file_21::devil:

 

[HG_B]

"Dumping" in space could be hazardous as the matter would freeze (or possibly sublimate in a comet like fashion? ) and cause a hazard to navigation. Imagine having that go splat on your viewport. It would probably punch through and cause damage.

That's why you 'dump' in J-space shortly before the end of the journey.

 

[savage]

waste

"Dumping" in space could be hazardous as the matter would freeze (or possibly sublimate in a comet like fashion? ) and cause a hazard to navigation. Imagine having that go splat on your viewport. It would probably punch through and cause damage.
.

There are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of mini-asteroids in most solar systems. Traveller hulls need to be tough. More importantly aircraft dump waste all the time on Earth.

The key is not to dump solid material but dirt. Or store it for the sandcasters. :rofl:

 

[HG_B]

The key is not to dump solid material but dirt. Or store it for the sandcasters. :rofl:

cr@pcasters are cr@ptasitic TM

 

[Carlobrand]

I figured out a while back that a Traveller's food for one month doesn't have to be any bigger that 2 square feet (96 meals in 12" x 12" x 1" food containers) and could fit under their bunk. Which means that's about how much solid waste that would be accumulated in a month, minus the food packaging and utensils (or including the food packaging, if you like) and any fluids siphoned off, per person. Should be easily storable as part of the life-support system - and could be stored in a tank under each bunk or at a central location. Just dump the waste at the next refuel, just like an RV does. Or once a month. No need to recycle aboard ship.

Actually, waste volume's likely to be a good deal less unless you're projecting volume for food concentrates. A lot of foods have a fair volume of water in their mass, and if your ship is applying the custom of using water to ferry solid wastes, your ship is likely to do as HG's ship does, drawing out the water content in some manner to minimize water lost with the solid wastes.

"Dumping" in space could be hazardous as the matter would freeze (or possibly sublimate in a comet like fashion? ) and cause a hazard to navigation. Imagine having that go splat on your viewport. It would probably punch through and cause damage. ...

Wha...??? I didn't think our current spacecraft were bringing home the solid wastes. Strikes me that dumping in space is not really an issue so long as you give the stuff a trajectory into the atmosphere - as long as you don't give it an orbit vector or an escape vector, it'll make it's way to the local gravity well and burn up on re-entry. Might be rules about dumping waste near a vacuum world - I'd hate to be outside in a spacesuit and get hit by something dropping down from way up there. As for ships and suchlike, given that a Traveller ship has a hull rated to repel micrometeor hits up to the impact power of a WW-II tank gun, I really don't think dried poop is going to do much, especially as the best ways to dry it out and recover the water content are also likely to leave it in a crumbly or powder state.

 

[Reban]

Wha...??? I didn't think our current spacecraft were bringing home the solid wastes.

I'm looking at the technical specifications and "How to use" details of the Space Shuttle's commode. Basically a fan draws air flow through the commode and a motor drives what is refered to in NASA technical speak as a "Slinger" which shreds feces and deposits it in a thin layer on the walls of the commode. The contents were dealt with when the Shuttle returned to Earth. I don't know how the facilities on the International Space Station function but probably in a similar fashion. All those cargo runs up come back packed with rubbish you know and I have a feeling that includes what was once called "night soil".

Apologies to anyone who was eating their dehydrated rations while reading this.

 

[pennshome723]

Oh for Ghods sake...just say that the 'crap' gets dropped into a container and then at a time prior to jump it is super heated and fried to dust, then it is dropped out into space as dust and forgotten. For Ghods sake sometimes you guys go way to far and beat a dead horse....:file_21::file_21::file_21:

 

[Reban]

More importantly aircraft dump waste all the time on Earth.

And there are lots of cases of lumps of yellow ice falling through the roofs of houses because an aircraft drained the waste tank at high altitude and the liquid froze on the way down.

But I do concede that my idea of waste punching a whole in a Traveller spaceship falls into the category of "Old Spacer Myths"

 

[HG_B]

And there are lots of cases of lumps of yellow ice falling through the roofs of houses because an aircraft drained the waste tank at high altitude and the liquid froze on the way down.

But I do concede that my idea of waste punching a whole in a Traveller spaceship falls into the category of "Old Spacer Myths"

Don't eat yellow comets?