Closed Starship Environment - Recycling & Conservation

[Carlobrand]

... Besides, my point was that I can imagine a reason why you do not want to do any waste dumps during jump...

I can too, if I let my imagination run, but I have absolutely no Mongoose material and know zip about how they do things. CT leaves it all up to your imagination, and MegaTrav puts a grid on the hull of your ship that creates a field effect that maintains a pocket of normal space around your ship. Anything exiting that field is simply subject to the perverse and unknown physics of jump space - I think the consensus is it basically disintegrates, as it doesn't take much of a change in physical laws for molecules and atoms to stop wanting to hang out with each other. In fact, anything getting too close to the jump field may suffer some ill effects - death or madness being documented in canon; I suspect some change in cell membranes, but that's just me. There's no indication in CT or MT canon of any effect on the ship or its occupants from such an event - except of course for those occupants who get too close to the field.

Which I guess means it's not an issue in the CT/MT universe but is an issue in the MgT universe.

 

[aramis]

I can too, if I let my imagination run, but I have absolutely no Mongoose material and know zip about how they do things. CT leaves it all up to your imagination, and MegaTrav puts a grid on the hull of your ship that creates a field effect that maintains a pocket of normal space around your ship. Anything exiting that field is simply subject to the perverse and unknown physics of jump space - I think the consensus is it basically disintegrates, as it doesn't take much of a change in physical laws for molecules and atoms to stop wanting to hang out with each other. In fact, anything getting too close to the jump field may suffer some ill effects - death or madness being documented in canon; I suspect some change in cell membranes, but that's just me. There's no indication in CT or MT canon of any effect on the ship or its occupants from such an event - except of course for those occupants who get too close to the field.

Which I guess means it's not an issue in the CT/MT universe but is an issue in the MgT universe.

I don't recall one from TNE nor T4, nor T20, either.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Um, guys? I wasn't trying to create a canon discussion on which version of Traveller would be amenable to sewage waste dumps in jump. I think that rules for that action is a bit beyond the scope of a RPG, so it should reasonably be left up to the individual gamers on how to handle that. This is why I included Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV) and In Your Traveller Universe (IYTU) in my posts. I understand that some people may care and some may not, the subject matter may be of interest to some and not to others. What I do in My Traveller Universe (MTU) may not necessarily work elsewhere.

When I used to spend a lot of time on this forum, it was a place to trade ideas and talk to fellow Traveller enthusiasts. Has that informality changed? Must any concept discussed be in accordance with canon now?

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry for setting all this off - I didn't intend my reply to your post to snowball like this. I do think it has brought up an interesting point though.

There are two living versions of Traveller at the moment, MgT and T5. GT is sort of still there but I doubt if we'll ever see anything new published for it outside of JTAS.

Problem is all the dead versions are still available either as pdfs or on disc, and CT remains by far the most popular and the default for argument and discussion.

I think some of us need to updated our libraries - I have only recently started buying up MgT stuff and I have noticed in the main rule book and in High Guard some subtle but very important changes from CT norms. These changes change the MgT version of the OTU 1105 Imperium from the CT version of the same.

An then there is T5 which has some major OTU changes in it.

Over on the thread discussing DGP stuff the consensus reached was that the DGP stuff - good as it was - is being overwritten. MgT is overwriting it, T5 may overwrite it.
MgT changes to the OTU in their Imperium setting supplements are licensed, authorised and if you want to write stuff for them you have to stick to their way of doing things.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I could have sworn that previous discussions on this board confirmed that there were two canon ways of doing jump: grid or bubble. And, that the bubble was created by the hydrogen. I know both of those answers are the most common throughout all the ship discussions.

Besides, my point was that I can imagine a reason why you do not want to do any waste dumps during jump.

Well, considering it's bad enough you're messing with jump space every time you transit it, then you go and dump your ... errr... dump in their universe. You don't think that's going to cause problems? Can you say "interdimensional warfare"? I knew you could.

For a more serious treatment of the idea of the consequences of interdimensional transfers, read Asimov's The Gods Themselves.

 

[Carlobrand]

Um, guys? I wasn't trying to create a canon discussion on which version of Traveller would be amenable to sewage waste dumps in jump. I think that rules for that action is a bit beyond the scope of a RPG, so it should reasonably be left up to the individual gamers on how to handle that. This is why I included Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV) and In Your Traveller Universe (IYTU) in my posts. I understand that some people may care and some may not, the subject matter may be of interest to some and not to others. What I do in My Traveller Universe (MTU) may not necessarily work elsewhere.

When I used to spend a lot of time on this forum, it was a place to trade ideas and talk to fellow Traveller enthusiasts. Has that informality changed? Must any concept discussed be in accordance with canon now?

Can we not have an informal canon discussion? There's about a half-dozen different canons now; comparing them is sometimes interesting and informative. I took your observation as a statement of canon, not an idea for an IMTU variation, and it's been credited to a canon source, so comparing and contrasting the canon ideas seemed to be a fair topic. If it isn't, my apologies.

As I said, I have zero Mongoose material, so sometimes the ideas coming from that quarter surprise me. I'm curious, for example, as to their rationale for using a hydrogen envelope, whether some other gas wouldn't work, and how they manage to hold the gas around the ship.

 

[HG_B]

As I said, I have zero Mongoose material, so sometimes the ideas coming from that quarter surprise me. I'm curious, for example, as to their rationale for using a hydrogen envelope, whether some other gas wouldn't work, and how they manage to hold the gas around the ship.

The only rational given is that the H2 is required for the N-space bubble while in J-space.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

MgT changes to the OTU in their Imperium setting supplements are licensed, authorised and if you want to write stuff for them you have to stick to their way of doing things.

I think that this is important to note.

My feeling being, that if I am creating something for publication, it must follow the appropriate canon for that version of Traveller. I am in total agreement there.

However, if you are just playing the game, then what you do with Traveller should be what would be considered the most fun for yourself and the game group. The result of this may be the throwing out of canon if it interferes with having fun.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I could have sworn that previous discussions on this board confirmed that there were two canon ways of doing jump: grid or bubble. And, that the bubble was created by the hydrogen. I know both of those answers are the most common throughout all the ship discussions.


Well, considering it's bad enough you're messing with jump space every time you transit it, then you go and dump your ... errr... dump in their universe. You don't think that's going to cause problems? Can you say "interdimensional warfare"? I knew you could.

For a more serious treatment of the idea of the consequences of interdimensional transfers, read Asimov's The Gods Themselves.

What I was considering may be worse than that, it may change the way the setting is played.

Lets say that nothing bad happens when you dump something in jumpspace. Depending on what happens to what you have dumped, the nature of the setting changes, because now you have a place where you can dump all sorts of toxic, hazardous, or radioactive material without any repercussions. That would affect trade quite a bit.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Can we not have an informal canon discussion? There's about a half-dozen different canons now; comparing them is sometimes interesting and informative. I took your observation as a statement of canon, not an idea for an IMTU variation, and it's been credited to a canon source, so comparing and contrasting the canon ideas seemed to be a fair topic. If it isn't, my apologies.

As I said, I have zero Mongoose material, so sometimes the ideas coming from that quarter surprise me. I'm curious, for example, as to their rationale for using a hydrogen envelope, whether some other gas wouldn't work, and how they manage to hold the gas around the ship.

I'm not saying that we can't have an informal canon discussion, but is the subject matter really important enough to be considered canon? Should I be considered a canon source?

In all honesty, I was just dropping by to talk about my favorite game for a bit.

 

[Patron Zero]

Hmmmm, dumping waste tanks at at the jump point before 'leaping into hyperspace' as a common practice observed by private and commercial starship operators alike.

Mind that's a pretty small amount of material to expel at said point in space but over time and considering the volume of traffic said corridor might see, could enough material collect to become a potential navigation hazard ?

A given a small starship of 100 tons would not dump the volume of say a dedicated transport vessel or even a military ship so might there be some regulations about where such operations are allowed.

And that might lead to dedicated ships that patrol said space to 'recover' waste materials for resale to agricultural or organic chemical recycling companies.

Anyone remember the short-lived NBC TV series Quark ?

 

[atpollard]

Hmmmm, dumping waste tanks at at the jump point before 'leaping into hyperspace' as a common practice observed by private and commercial starship operators alike.

Mind that's a pretty small amount of material to expel at said point in space but over time and considering the volume of traffic said corridor might see, could enough material collect to become a potential navigation hazard ?

A given a small starship of 100 tons would not dump the volume of say a dedicated transport vessel or even a military ship so might there be some regulations about where such operations are allowed.

And that might lead to dedicated ships that patrol said space to 'recover' waste materials for resale to agricultural or organic chemical recycling companies.

Anyone remember the short-lived NBC TV series Quark ?

Rather than dumping when your velocity is zero, dump right after turnaround when the ship is decelerating and the waste has solar system escape velocity. Sure, it might cross the parsec gap and enter another solar system, but I am not loosing sleep over that possibility.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

On drop tanks:
I was curious about outside logistics of drop tanks.
What happens to the drop tanks afterwards use in a commercial situation? Are the drop tanks "on loan" from a company or agency of a sort?
As an example, most if not all areas in the US are conscious of recycling glass bottles, some states charge a "deposit" fee on the bottle itself which redeemable with the return of the bottle. Others subsume the cost and it is non-refundable. The systems of public waste management take care of getting the bottle recycled to get used again.
So even though the hyrdrogen in a drop tank is a consumable, the drop tank is not. So what happens to the drop tank? While drop tanks are cheap in comparison to ships themselves, they are not free. If it is truly owned by the starship owner, I suppose they would want it back eventually. If it is not, would there not be pick up procedures? Wouldn't there be business or industry which would go looking for drop tanks to rent them for use?
I envision some system where there are "public transponders" on the tanks for easy finding. For legitimate business ships anyways. Military ships using tanks would not have transponders or at least have ones that could be turned off?

My Cr.02 Any other thoughts opinions on this?

 

[Carlobrand]

On drop tanks:
I was curious about outside logistics of drop tanks.
What happens to the drop tanks afterwards use in a commercial situation? Are the drop tanks "on loan" from a company or agency of a sort?
As an example, most if not all areas in the US are conscious of recycling glass bottles, some states charge a "deposit" fee on the bottle itself which redeemable with the return of the bottle. Others subsume the cost and it is non-refundable. The systems of public waste management take care of getting the bottle recycled to get used again.
So even though the hyrdrogen in a drop tank is a consumable, the drop tank is not. So what happens to the drop tank? While drop tanks are cheap in comparison to ships themselves, they are not free. If it is truly owned by the starship owner, I suppose they would want it back eventually. If it is not, would there not be pick up procedures? Wouldn't there be business or industry which would go looking for drop tanks to rent them for use?
I envision some system where there are "public transponders" on the tanks for easy finding. For legitimate business ships anyways. Military ships using tanks would not have transponders or at least have ones that could be turned off?

My Cr.02 Any other thoughts opinions on this?

If a commercial enterprise is using drop tanks, it's having ships built or modified to accept drop tanks, 'cause that's not a feature of the standard designs. If it's having ships built or modified to accept drop tanks, it's got some financial depth to it, certainly enough to manage a recovery program for its own tanks. It would not need transponders because the recovery crew would be near at hand when the ship used and dropped the tank, close enough to track the tank on their own sensors and to go pick it up.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

On drop tanks:
I was curious about outside logistics of drop tanks.
What happens to the drop tanks afterwards use in a commercial situation? Are the drop tanks "on loan" from a company or agency of a sort?
As an example, most if not all areas in the US are conscious of recycling glass bottles, some states charge a "deposit" fee on the bottle itself which redeemable with the return of the bottle. Others subsume the cost and it is non-refundable. The systems of public waste management take care of getting the bottle recycled to get used again.
So even though the hyrdrogen in a drop tank is a consumable, the drop tank is not. So what happens to the drop tank? While drop tanks are cheap in comparison to ships themselves, they are not free. If it is truly owned by the starship owner, I suppose they would want it back eventually. If it is not, would there not be pick up procedures? Wouldn't there be business or industry which would go looking for drop tanks to rent them for use?
I envision some system where there are "public transponders" on the tanks for easy finding. For legitimate business ships anyways. Military ships using tanks would not have transponders or at least have ones that could be turned off?

My Cr.02 Any other thoughts opinions on this?

Well, the disposition of commercial drop tanks will depend entirely upon the company that owns them, which is most likely also the company that owns the ship using them. They might be recovered and reused, if it is economical to do so. They might also be salvaged and repurposed as tankage for a local space station if it would be more economical to do that instead. It is up to the owner.

 

[rancke]

According to the RAW[*], drop tanks are one-use. I think perhaps it would make more sense if tanks dropped in the outback were effectively one-shot (because of the problems with recovering them) but that an established drop liner line would have infrastructure in place to recover and restore them. OTOH, the stresses drop tanks go through may weaken them structually in the first drop, rendering them one-shot for anyone.

[*] CT RAW; I don't know what other versions have to say on the subject.​

Hans

 

[aramis]

According to the RAW[*], drop tanks are one-use. I think perhaps it would make more sense if tanks dropped in the outback were effectively one-shot (because of the problems with recovering them) but that an established drop liner line would have infrastructure in place to recover and restore them. OTOH, the stresses drop tanks go through may weaken them structually in the first drop, rendering them one-shot for anyone.

[*] CT RAW; I don't know what other versions have to say on the subject.​

Hans

Note that under T5, they're likely to be insufficiently far enough away to avoid being destroyed.

Under MgT, at lower TLs, they are automatically destroyed; at mid ones, may be destroyed, and at TL15+ will not be barring accidents.

 

[Patron Zero]

I would think drop tanks, regardless of the size, would be fitted with some sort of transponder for purposes of recovery and being a potential navigational hazard.

 

[aramis]

I would think drop tanks, regardless of the size, would be fitted with some sort of transponder for purposes of recovery and being a potential navigational hazard.

In T5 and MGT, that won't help, unless they're dropped at the mid-point. They're rent, twisted, shattered, and in pieces-parts most of the time.

Because you need them to charge up for jump, but need to drop them prior to jump transition, they're unlikely to clear 100 diameters of the ship. And anything outside the ship is damaged badly by the transition.

 

[savage]

jump transition

In T5 and MGT, that won't help, unless they're dropped at the mid-point. They're rent, twisted, shattered, and in pieces-parts most of the time.

Because you need them to charge up for jump, but need to drop them prior to jump transition, they're unlikely to clear 100 diameters of the ship. And anything outside the ship is damaged badly by the transition.

So...we're saying fighters/scout ships and anything within 100au of the jump will be damaged? Where does it say that? You cannot jump within 100au of a planetary, solar mass. I don't recall reading anything about the mass of the jumping ship damaging other vessels. A battle fleet would need to spread out.