CT Only: College for Basic Chargen

[atpollard]

Just tossing something out for general perusal and comment.
I wanted some Pre-Enlistment options that would be compatible with Characters from LBB 1 and Supplement 4 ... from 1 to 4 skills/attribute points per term.

College/University (Pre-Enlistment) "Career" (For CT: LBB1 & S4 Chargen)
Admission (enlistment): 8+ (+1 if INT = 8+; +1 if EDU = 8+)
Success (survival): Roll 2d6 (+1 if INT = 8+; +1 if EDU = 8+) See results below:

• (2-4) Failure: College was not for you and you left, having aged one year (to age 19) and received no benefits. You may now begin some other career.
• (5-6) College Graduate: You leave college after 2 years, having completed a general program in either "Arts" or "Science" [Foundation of Arts, or Foundation of Science]. You automatically gain the following: (+1 EDU, Skill-0). If your EDU (after adjustment) is less than 8, then EDU is increased to 8. You may now begin some other career. Skills may be selected from the School of Arts or the School of Science
• (7-8) College Graduate: You leave college after 2 years, having completed a specialized program with the skill gained used to determine the specialty [Computer-1 = Foundation of Computer Science]. You automatically gain the following: (+1 EDU, Skill-1). If your EDU (after adjustment) is less than 9, then EDU is increased to 9. You may now begin some other career. Skills may be selected from the School of Arts, School of Science or School of Business.
• (9-10) College Graduate: You leave college after 4 years, having completed a specialized program with the skill gained used to determine the specialty [Computer-1 = Bachelor of Computer Science]. You automatically gain the following: (+1 EDU, Skill-1, Skill-1). If your EDU (after adjustment) is less than 9, then EDU is increased to 9. Skills may be selected from any School. As a College Graduate (4 year), you may now begin some other career by rolling for "Enlistment" and receiving an automatic success at "Position" on your first term.
• (11+) College Honors Graduate: You leave college after 4 years, having completed a specialized program in a specific degree with high achievement. The skill gained is used to determine the specialty [Computer-1 = Bachelor of Computer Science with Honors]. You automatically gain the following: (+1 INT, +1 EDU, Skill-1, Skill-1). If your EDU (after adjustment) is less than 10, then EDU is increased to 10. Skills may be selected from any School. As a College Honors graduates, you may now be admitted to any profession with no "Enlistment" roll required and an automatic success at "Position" on your first term.

School of Arts
1. Administration
2. Computer
3. Instruction
4. Leader
5. Liaison
6. Interrogation

School of Sciences
1. Administration
2. Computer
3. Electronics
4. Mechanical
5. Medical
6. Navigation

School of Business
1. Administration
2. Broker
3. Computer
4. Legal
5. Liaison
6. Trader

School of Engineering
1. Administration
2. Computer
3. Electronics
4. Engineering
5. Mechanical
6. Gravitics

School of Law
1. Administration
2. Bribery
3. Computer
4. Forgery
5. Interrogation
6. Streetwise

School of Military Science
1. Administration
2. Computer
3. Leader
4. Liaison
5. Recon
6. Tactics

 

[san*klass]

Thanks - they look like a good, workable, balanced set of rules.

My only question is the (paraphrasing) "+1 EDU, or if adjusted EDU is less than 8, then go to 8" section. Taking an extreme example, I can't see someone starting at EDU 5 automatically doubling EDU, however successful their 2 year college experience was.

I would personally stick to just the +1 EDU.

However, a fantastic and I'm sure soon to be used, set of rules.

 

[rancke]

My only question is the (paraphrasing) "+1 EDU, or if adjusted EDU is less than 8, then go to 8" section. Taking an extreme example, I can't see someone starting at EDU 5 automatically doubling EDU, however successful their 2 year college experience was.

I would personally stick to just the +1 EDU.

I would go with a minimum EDU before you could get into College, even if that breaks the character creation paradigm. But then, I've always thought that that paradigm OUGHT to be broken in certain cases. For instance, people with really low physical stats should find it impossible to get into a military career (Unless they have a high social status ).


Hans

 

[Leitz]

Think of the 8 EDU minimum like this; someone comes in from a backwards world where there's no breadth in education. For example, a wilderness world where you farm and hunt. That does not mean you're stupid, you could have a high INT and could do lots of things. However, your exposure to the breadth of modern society is limited.

If you choose to stick with college for at least a couple years, you learn a lot about how other people think and how other things work. You lose a lot of the negative modifiers for EDU but you don't really gain any positive mods. It's more like a classical education than a specific degree program.

Having taken college classes as an adult learner, I assure you, there are EDU 3 people out there who really need that breadth!

I'd like to see this extended, though. A Master's equivalent at EDU 12, and PhD at 14? Note that a character can have a low INT and a high EDU. I've seen those, too. o:

 

[Leitz]

Also, given the use of Skill-0, I'd say a dedicated character could do 1 or 2 semesters a year and get a much broader education while being on board ship, or down time between mercenary tickets. Most life-styles aren't action all the time.

I will also point out that I've done this very thing, so don't care much about "game balance" arguments.

 

[rancke]

Think of the 8 EDU minimum like this; someone comes in from a backwards world where there's no breadth in education. For example, a wilderness world where you farm and hunt. That does not mean you're stupid, you could have a high INT and could do lots of things. However, your exposure to the breadth of modern society is limited.

It also means that you don't have the academic qualifications for admittance to a college. No high school degree or the equivalent.

If you choose to stick with college for at least a couple years, you learn a lot about how other people think and how other things work. You lose a lot of the negative modifiers for EDU but you don't really gain any positive mods. It's more like a classical education than a specific degree program.

Having taken college classes as an adult learner, I assure you, there are EDU 3 people out there who really need that breadth!

I'd like to see this extended, though. A Master's equivalent at EDU 12, and PhD at 14? Note that a character can have a low INT and a high EDU. I've seen those, too. o:

There are also people who genuinely can't complete a college education. There may be some low-intelligence people who can -- I have my doubts about how low it can be, but let that pass -- but there certainly are some low-intelligence people who can't (also some high-intelligence people, though usually for unrelated reasons, such as socialization issues).

Also remember that character generation is not about passing exams and getting a formal degree, it's about actually deriving benefits from the teaching and learning something.

Therer's always a question of balancing realism and ease of play. Still, I would add a few extra bits to character generation, such as a correlation between INT and an upper limit to EDU.

I will also point out that I've done this very thing, so don't care much about "game balance" arguments.

Yours sounds more like a realism argument than a game balance argument.


Hans

 

[kilemall]

Overall, I like.

A few tweaks-

1. There should be a roll on a 'social skills' table as the second skill for otherwise 1 skill results, and a skill-0 on a failed college result (which may explain the 'washout').

College Life
1. Brawling
2. Bribery
3. Carousing
4. Gambling
5. Recruiting
6. Streetwise

2. Should be an Ag/Mining school option for colonial programs

School of Agriculture & Mining
1. Equestrian/Vehicle (mining or farming)
2. Survey
3. Prospecting
4. Admin
5. Mechanical
6. Trader

3. I think EDU stands for effective 2 years of school per point, so 2 year success should be +1 EDU, 4 year success should be +2 EDU, and honors would either be +3 EDU or +2 EDU and the +1 INT result.

The baseline would be EDU 6 for 12 years of school leading to 18, 7 as the 2 year degree base result, and 8 as a 4 year degree result.

4. I would rearrange the school skills as follows-

School of Arts
No change

School of Sciences
1. Administration
2. Computer
3. Electronics
4. Mechanical
5. Medical
6. Navigation

School of Business
No change

School of Engineering
1. Naval Architect
2. Computer
3. Electronics
4. Engineering
5. Mechanical
6. Gravitics

School of Law
1. Administration
2. Bribery
3. Computer
4. Legal
5. Interrogation
6. Streetwise

School of Military Science
1. Administration
2. Computer
3. Leader
4. Combat Engineering
5. Ship or Fleet Tactics
6. Tactics

 

[kilemall]

I would go with a minimum EDU before you could get into College, even if that breaks the character creation paradigm. But then, I've always thought that that paradigm OUGHT to be broken in certain cases. For instance, people with really low physical stats should find it impossible to get into a military career (Unless they have a high social status ).


Hans

I heard that comment re: the Army when I was going over the encumbrance rules with an ex-paratrooper friend of mine, his comment was that the army would likely reject the lower end physical recruits and the lower load limits would not be a factor.

 

[Leitz]

I heard that comment re: the Army when I was going over the encumbrance rules with an ex-paratrooper friend of mine, his comment was that the army would likely reject the lower end physical recruits and the lower load limits would not be a factor.

Yup. I can see post career low stats, and I often assume there was some mishap in the service that dropped the stat. The army, unlike college, doesn't have to take whomever pays.

 

[Leitz]

It also means that you don't have the academic qualifications for admittance to a college. No high school degree or the equivalent.

Still, I would add a few extra bits to character generation, such as a correlation between INT and an upper limit to EDU.

We obviously have different views of college people.

I like the proposed changes, even if they get tweaked a bit. However, I'm always for adding options and fun.

 

[ian54]

Taking an extreme example, I can't see someone starting at EDU 5 automatically doubling EDU, however successful their 2 year college experience was.

The experience rules in Book 2 mention that you can raise Education by 6 over four years with only two sessions a week, so I'd say this was plausible with full time learning. The only restriction is that Education must be lower than Intelligence.

 

[atpollard]

“A garden isn’t complete until nothing more can be removed.”

This 'garden' still needs some 'weeds' removed.

Spoiler

• For starters, I like the idea of setting a minimum EDU for admission, rather than having a potential big jump in EDU at the end of term or having a College Graduate with an EDU of 5. It is closer to the 'gain 1 to 4 skills/bonuses per term' paradigm of LBB-1 & S-4.
• Let's adjust the "Enlistment" and "Survival" bonuses to be more like LBB1 & S4 ... +1 for one and +2 for a second.
• I think that I should convert all of the results (except 'failure') to a 4 year term. I might take another look in the future at creating a 2 year 'Trade School' Pre-Enlistment option for characters with an EDU too low qualify for COLLEGE. I will probably add a GRADUATE SCHOOL option to cover 'Medical School' and add some other Post-Graduate options. First, I need to get the basic 'College' worked out.
• I think that I will revisit the SKILL tables. I want to match the results of the Advanced Education Tables (Edu 8+) from LBB1 & S4 closer, so I am leaning towards trying a 2d6 table to reflect the frequency of the various skills across all careers.

So here goes a second attempt:

COLLEGE EDUCATION (Pre-Enlistment) "Career"
(For CT: LBB1 & S4 Chargen). The College Education 'Career' is open exclusively to characters with an Education of 7 or higher.
Admission (enlistment): 8+ (+1 if INT = 8+; +2 if EDU = 9+)
Success (survival): Special. Roll 2d6 (+1 if EDU = 8+; +2 if INT = 9+) and see below.

• (2-4) Failure: College was not for you and you leave after one year (at age 19) and received no benefits. You may now begin some other career with a short (3 year) term.
• (5-6) College Graduate, Foundation of Arts/Science: College was 4 years of mostly fun during which you completed a 2-year general program in either "Arts" or "Science" [Foundation of Arts or Foundation of Science]. You automatically gain the following: one Skill-1 from the "College Life" table and one Skill-0 from the "College Education" table.
• (7-8) College Graduate, Bachelor of Arts/Science: You leave college after 4 years, having completed a 4-year general program in either "Arts" or "Science" [Bachelor of Arts or Bachelor of Science]. You automatically gain the following: +1 EDU, one Skill-1 and one Skill-0 from the "College Life" or "College Education" tables. You may now begin some other career.
• (9-10) College Graduate, Specialized Degree: You leave college after 4 years, having completed a specialized program with the skill gained used to determine the specialty [Computer-1 = Bachelor of Computer Science]. You automatically gain the following: +1 EDU, two Skill-1 and one Skill-0 from the "College Life" or "College Education" tables. As a College Graduate with a Specialized Degree, you may now begin some other career by rolling for "Enlistment" and receiving an automatic success at "Position" on your first term.
• (11+) College Honors Graduate: You leave college after 4 years, having completed a specialized program in a specific degree with high achievement. The skill gained is used to determine the specialty [Computer-1 = Bachelor of Computer Science with Honors]. You automatically gain the following: +1 INT, +1 EDU, two Skill-1 and one Skill-0 from the "College Life" or "College Education" tables. As a College Honors graduates, you may now be admitted to any profession with no "Enlistment" roll required and an automatic success at "Position" on your first term.

COLLEGE LIFE (Personal Development) TABLE:
1. Brawling
2. Carousing
3. Gambling
4. +1 EDU
5. +1 INT
6. +1 SOC


COLLEGE EDUCATION (Advanced Education) TABLE:
Players and Referees have three options to select from based on personal preferences:

• 'College is College': Roll 2d6
• 'Liberal Arts Major': Roll 1d6+1
• 'Science and Technology Major': Roll 1d6+6

2. Tactics
3. Liaison
4. Streetwise
5. Leader
6. Administration
7. Computer
8. Medical
9. Pilot
10. Engineering
11. Navigation
12. Electronics


Comments, advice and criticism are always welcome.

 

[Leitz]

I prefer kilemall's separation of colleges, it allows for option growth.

 

[kilemall]

I prefer kilemall's separation of colleges, it allows for option growth.

Well now that was in his original proposal, all I did was add College Life, a college and mess with the skills a little.

 

[kilemall]

Really like the admissions and success table now, only tweak I would make there is have the lower successes mandate the skill-1 be College Life and skill-0 the 'degree' program, and for higher successes vice versa, College Life is the skill-0 and degree skills the skill-1(s).

I prefer the separate Schools personally.

College Life and the new table, eh, nobody would want that CL table now, bit too harsh, and the degree programs seem a bit off and specialized in odd ways.

Try these tables on for size-

[FONT=arial,helvetica]COLLEGE LIFE (Personal Development) TABLE:
1. Brawling
2. Carousing or Gambling
3. Streetwise
4. Vehicle
5. Steward
6. +1 Choose Stat


[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]COLLEGE EDUCATION (Advanced Education) TABLE:
Players and Referees have four options to select from based on personal preferences:

• 'College is College': Roll 2d6
• 'Liberal Arts Major': Roll 1d6+1
• 'Government and Business Major'. Roll 1d6+3
• 'Science and Technology Major': Roll 1d6+6

2. Instruction
3. Jack O Trades
4. Recruiting
5. Liaison
6. Leader
7. Computer
8. Administration
9. Interrogation
10. Engineering
11. Medical
12. Electronics Mechanical or Gravitics[/FONT]

 

[atpollard]

DESIGNER NOTES ON MY THINKING:

The overall goal was to match the other Basic Chargen careers in terms of results. For Personal Development, every career (without exception) has +1 attribute results at least 50% of the time.

PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT:
Navy = 6 attributes + 0 skills
Marines = 3 attributes + 3 skills
Army = 4 attributes + 2 skills
Scouts = 5 attributes + 1 skills
Merchant = 4 attributes + 2 skills
Other = 4 attributes + 2 skills
Pirate = 3 attributes + 3 skills
Belter = 3 attributes + 3 skills
Sailor = 3 attributes + 3 skills
Diplomat = 3 attributes + 3 skills
Doctor = 6 attributes + 0 skills
Flyer = 3 attributes + 3 skills
Barbarian = 5 attributes + 1 skills
Bureaucrat = 4 attributes + 2 skills
Rogue = 4 attributes + 2 skills
Noble = 4 attributes + 2 skills
Scientist = 5 attributes + 1 skills
Hunter = 4 attributes + 2 skills

Notice that NONE of the Personal Development Tables contain more than 3 skills.
So I agree with the observation that few people would choose the "College Life" table that I created, just as fewer people choose the Personal Development table over the other Career Skills tables in the other careers.
I can also see how Kilemall's variant might be more useful, but I think that it makes "College" too different from the other Basic Chargen Careers available in LBB 1 and Supl 4.

So what skills belong under "College Life/Personal Development"?
Looking at all 16 of the other careers that have Personal Development skills:

• Blade Combat is available in 5 careers.
• Brawling is available in 10 careers.
• Bribery is available in 1 career. (Merchant)
• Carousing is available in 8 careers.
• Gambling is available in 6 careers.
• Gun Combat is available in 2 careers. (Scout & Hunter)
• Vacc Suit is available in 1 career. (Belter)

From this, the most widely available "Personal Development" skills are Brawling, Carousing and Gambling ... with Blade Combat in a close 4th place.

For a "College Personal Development Table" attribute improvement list, +1 EDU and +1 INT seemed obvious choices (both are also frequently found in the other careers).
Any thoughts on +1 Soc as the third choice? Is there a more logical attribute to improve at college?




Personally, I sort of like the College in 2 year chunks idea ... Associates, Bachelors, Masters, Doctorate ... but it doesn't really fit in with the rest of Basic Chargen that clearly uses 4 year Terms as the only unit that matters.
So I yield my personal preference to compatibility with the existing careers.



College Skill Lists:
First step was to identify which of the skills available in the game are appropriate as College skills. The obvious distinction was those skills that appear on "Advanced Education Table (allowed only if character has education of 8+)" tables.
Which also serves to define 'Education 8' as the lower boundary for 'College Educated Characters'.

I am of two minds on how to present College Skills on a table.

• On the one hand, three separate tables of 6 skills each fits much better with the paradigm of the other Basic Chargen Careers. That was why I went with multiple tables in the first draft.
• On the other hand, the Advanced Chargen College tends to place 'College' as one unified lump that just improves EDU and saves the specialized Schools for Graduate levels (Medical School and Flight School). An examination of the frequency of skills appearing on the "Advanced Education Table (allowed only if character has education of 8+)" tables suggests that some skills are FAR more common than others. Both of these facts support some sort of 2d6 table.

So what skills belong under "College Advanced Education"?
Looking at all 18 of the careers that have "Advanced Education Table (allowed only if character has education of 8+)" tables, they seem to fall in roughly three groups:

Almost Universal:

• Computer is available in 17 careers.
• Medical is available in 15 careers.
• Jack-0-T is available in 11 careers.

Common:

• Leader is available in 9 careers.
• Admin is available in 8 careers.
• Pilot is available in 6 careers.

Uncommon:

• Navigation is available in 5 careers.
• Engineering is available in 4 careers.
• Forgery is available in 3 careers.
• Tactics is available in 3 careers.
• Electronics is available in 2 careers.
• Liaison is available in 2 careers.
• Streetwise is available in 2 careers.
• Bribery is available in 1 career. (Rogue)
• Hunting is available in 1 career. (Hunter)
• Instruction is available in 1 career. (Barbarian)
• Interrogation is available in 1 career. (Barbarian)
• Survival is available in 1 career. (Hunter)

Since the stated goal is maximum compatibility with existing Basic Chargen Careers, I guess that compatibility with the existing Basic Chargen paradigm should win out with 3 options of 6 skills each.
Since this is a College themed Career, 'Liberal Arts', 'Business and Government' and 'Science and Technology' make for appropriate groupings.



So let's take another shot at the skill tables (adding some non-game mechanic chrome for College Degree inspiration):

Liberal Arts Education Table:

• Computer (Graphic Arts)
• Medical (Mental Health)
• Jack-0-T (Liberal Arts)
• Leader
• -
• -

Business and Government Education Table:

• Computer (Data Processing)
• Medical (Public Health)
• Jack-0-T (Business and Government)
• Administration (Business Administration)
• -
• -

Science and Technology Education Table:

• Computer (Computer Science)
• Medical (Medical Science)
• Jack-o-T (Science and Technology)
• Pilot (Aerospace Technology)
• Navigation (Mathematics)
• Engineering (Aerospace Engineering)

Suggestions welcome on filling in the basic skill lists.
Should we stick with the skills from the "Advanced Education Table (allowed only if character has education of 8+)", or add skills like 'Trader' to the Business School?
Which skill best represents a degree in 'Education' ... 'Instruction' from the 'Barbarian Career'?
Any other thoughts on 'must have' skills/degrees?


Tables of 6 skills allow the option of easily adding more/new schools ... like kilemall's Mining and Agriculture ... or a Law and Criminology.
I agree with Leitz, leaving room for option growth is a good thing.

 

[atpollard]

Really like the admissions and success table now, only tweak I would make there is have the lower successes mandate the skill-1 be College Life and skill-0 the 'degree' program, and for higher successes vice versa, College Life is the skill-0 and degree skills the skill-1(s).

Good idea.
It makes for a nice touch.

I prefer the separate Schools personally.

Me too.
I tried to accommodate the Frequency found in the other careers, but it makes customization too much harder and the College Career too different from other careers.

 

[rancke]

How about making an advanced version in addition to the basic one and save the multiple differentiations for that? As you say, one major point of basic character generation is that it's simple. Compare basic and advanced for other careers and consider if some of these distinctions really have a place in basic.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

For CT LBB1 characters and CotI generated ones I allow a player to attend college as per the experience rules as their first term.

It costs them a mustering out roll forfeit but they do get a +1DM for enlistment and commission (and the technical skill of their choice at level 2 of course).

 

[kilemall]

Well now if the intent is to be like a career, then go whole hog, all 4 tables.

That gives you three tables to split up the personal dev, carousing and general skills with remedial education, and the fourth Advanced Education would be for the EDU 8+ people prepared to take full advantage of college.

The fourth Advanced Education table would be the special case of choosing ANY skill whatsover- the advantage of paying for your education, as opposed to what the service or business wants.

The 'commission' role would be graduating, and promotion would be for honors.

Then you can make a full Academia career, possibly based on or replacing Scientist.

As for chrome skills, IMTU I have a rule of converting 1 EDU point into four knowledge levels, all to an area of interest, or split up however. That means the character eschewed some broad-based education in favor of very specific areas of knowledge.

I would gather they roughly correspond to what I'm gathering people are calling kskills, but IMTU case they confer an appropriate skill-0 and are used at full value for knowledge checks. This allows me to cover both arcane academia that are not practical skills like the Traveller skills, and special hobbies and interests that flesh out the character without creating a skill monster.

They are wide open- so you can have Theoretical Jumpspace Physics-2, Comparative Year 200 Imperial Literature-1, and Baseball Tactics-1, to give an example.

This thread also brings up a pet peeve of mine, the skillcentric task resolutions that give personal characteristics short shrift. BIG reason why I went with a roll below stats+skill system, people then have a reason to want to pump those stats up and they can be as powerful as any skill.

Oh and for final fun, the college grad should roll on the mustering out cash table with a NEGATIVE credit result on most rolls, showing student debt.