Commerce Raiders

[marginaleye]

Are there any High Guard-compatible rules for how much space sandcaster canisters and missles actually require? I've been fiddling around with designs for fairly small (~1000 dton) warships designed "from the keel up" for commerce raiding, and am wondering just how big the magazines really need to be?

Of course, the other factor in that equation is how long would such a ship spend deep in enemy space, before creeping back to the Imperium for supplies? A couple of months? Or a couple of years? In the latter case, allowing each crewman, even the mere enlisted men, a full stateroom might be sensible (if only to roughly simulate extra space dedicated to consumable supplies and robust life-support equipment).

I've also been wondering whether it would be possible to dispense with both missle racks (and perhaps sandcasters, too) altogether, and rely entirely upon lasers, or some combination of lasers and other energy weapons. Lasers, after all, are uniquely flexible, since they can also be used defensively.

 

[Tobias]

That something exists in canon means jack squat. The Lurenti-class in SMC or several of the FSSI monstrosities should drive this point home.
If you wanted to be adamant about using the Book 2 Frontier Trader, well, you have a very sub-optimal design anyway.
Better computer than model/7? Whazzat?
Weapons other than lasers, missiles and sand? Not on this boat!
Extra EP for agility? Not quite, no.
Armor? What is this strange thing?
There is a reason everyone with half a mind uses HG for all their design work. If you insist on Book 2 designs, however, well, mixing in HG comps is not allowed by any rule anywhere.
Needless to say, the ship as postulated (I am not even sure if the performance is correct as per B2) would be eaten alive by a few well-designed TL 14-15 fighters, let alone larger ships.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[mike wightman]

Tobias ranted (and if it wasn't a rant please forgive the following ):

That something exists in canon means jack squat.

I agree totally, you can do what you want in your game, but the Traveller Adventure is one of the best supplements ever produced, IMHO, so to write off this popular piece of canon is somewhat questionable (and quite likely to irritate some people

)

If you wanted to be adamant about using the Book 2 Frontier Trader

It was a friendly suggestion not an adamant demand that everyone immediately adopts the design.

you have a very sub-optimal design anyway.

I agree again, but then it is meant to be a diguised courier-not a ship of the line. But the scope is there to upgrade.

Better computer than model/7?

If I were equiping it for commerce raiding I would upgrade the computer to a model 9fib.

Weapons other than lasers, missiles and sand? Not on this boat!

Why not? I'll answer this point later on.

Extra EP for agility? Not quite, no.

Who needs agility in a proper combat system like Mayday or Brilliant Lances?

Besides, it has a power plant rating of 6 and therefore 120 EP. It can power 60 beam lasers, the computer, and still have agility 2. As I said, adding a second power plant is a fiddle, a cheat

Armor? What is this strange thing?

Extra thick hull plating designed to...

There is a reason everyone with half a mind uses HG for all their design work.

I enjoy using book 2, book 5, T20, Brilliant Lances, GURPS Starships, T4 Starships, and even MT. Does that mean I've got a mind with three and a half times normal capability?

If you insist on Book 2 designs, however, well, mixing in HG comps is not allowed by any rule anywhere.

Wrong.
Well, you can build a High Guard ship with Book 2 drives, it says so.
High Guard page 22, "It is possible to include standard drives...from Book 2..."

More evidence: the Kinunir, a Book 2- Book5 hybrid if ever there was one; the Gazelle Close Escort in Journal number 4.

(I am not even sure if the performance is correct as per B2)

If you can't trust me on this then:
a) read book 2;
or,
b) ask someone else.

Needless to say, the ship as postulated would be eaten alive by a few well-designed TL 14-15 fighters, let alone larger ships.

Which is why it could carry a few TL15 fighters of its own. But then again, the abstract High Guard combat system doesn't actually allow two fighters to hit and damage each other.
As for larger ships, it should avoid them like the plague.

Once again, I don't mean to offend - just a reply to your questions.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Absolutely. Book2 Page 17. Missiles weigh about 50KG and cost Cr5,000 each. Replacement canisters of this special sand weigh about 50kg and cost Cr400. that would put them at around 20 per ton. (Metric Ton, not neccesarily displacement ton.) And I believe this is where the T20 numbers came from. (20 Missiles or Sand Canisters per Ton.)

Originally posted by marginaleye:
Are there any High Guard-compatible rules for how much space sandcaster canisters and missles actually require? I've been fiddling around with designs for fairly small (~1000 dton) warships designed "from the keel up" for commerce raiding, and am wondering just how big the magazines really need to be?

Of course, the other factor in that equation is how long would such a ship spend deep in enemy space, before creeping back to the Imperium for supplies? A couple of months? Or a couple of years? In the latter case, allowing each crewman, even the mere enlisted men, a full stateroom might be sensible (if only to roughly simulate extra space dedicated to consumable supplies and robust life-support equipment).

I've also been wondering whether it would be possible to dispense with both missle racks (and perhaps sandcasters, too) altogether, and rely entirely upon lasers, or some combination of lasers and other energy weapons. Lasers, after all, are uniquely flexible, since they can also be used defensively.

 

[flykiller]

Book2 Page 17. Missiles weigh about 50KG and cost Cr5,000 each. Replacement canisters of this special sand weigh about 50kg and cost Cr400. that would put them at around 20 per ton. (Metric Ton, not neccesarily displacement ton.) And I believe this is where the T20 numbers came from. (20 Missiles or Sand Canisters per Ton.)

the book 2 missile is about the same size(weight) as a sidewinder. allowing for decent packing material you can fit about thirty of those in a half-ton (displacement) modular package.

 

[Hal]

Speaking strictly from a GURPS TRAVELLER standpoint - what ever you read below that does not apply to your own trav universe is of course intended to be disregarded

While not addressing the design of a commerce raider, one should consider what the raider will be expected to pull off and why.

First, a commerce raider should know *something* about the system that it is targetting. It should be going after systems that do not permit refueling except via the gas giants. The reason for this is because of one really NASTY achilles heel - and that is the refueling infrastructure. Most ships, do not want to have to spend a lot of time in "normal" space if they can avoid it - well, most MERCHANT ships that is. The number one priority for a commerce raider is to nail a fueling tanker. Why? Because ships at a main world need to wait until they can get fuel. If you destroy say, 10% of a world's fuel transport system - 10% of all merchant shipping to that planet must now head out to the gas giant to get their fuel instead of getting it in the safety of their planetary environment.

Another thing to remember for planetary raiders is that they don't need to destroy everything they can - damaging a lot of smaller ships and "wounding" them means they need to spend time at the starports for repairs (hospitalization as it were for ships). This is labor intensive and ultimately more expensive for the "enemy" infrastructure.

Just some thoughts

 

[marginaleye]

Here is the Serendipidous Thunderbolt my first attempt at designing a 1000 dton commerce raider. At Tech Level 14, it's obviously either obsolete, or nearly so. I envision it dating back to the Third Frontier War period.

Tonnage: 1,000 tons (standard). 14,000 cubic meters.
Crew: 6 officers, 10 ratings.
Performance: Jump-5. 2-G. Power plant-6. 60 EP. Agility 1.
Electronics: Model/7fib computer.
Hardpoints: 10 hardpoints.
Armament: Two triple laser turrets organized into two batteries (factor-4). Six particle accelerator barbettes organized into one battery (factor-4).
Defenses: Armored hull (factor-3). Two triple sandcaster turrets organized into two batteries (factor-4).
Craft: One air/raft in fitted compartment.
Fuel Treatment: On-board fuel scoops and fuel purification plant.
Cost: MCr885.684 standard. MCr708.667 in quantity.

Note that each crew member has an individual stateroom, and up to 14 dtons of cargo can be carried.

 

[marginaleye]

Oh, I forgot to mention that the Serendipidous Thunderbolt has a fully streamlined (flattened spherical) hull. Granted, this configuration isn't particularly good at resisting meson gun fire, but if it encounters an opponent armed with meson guns, its only sensible option is to flee, so this doesn't seem like a serious problem to me.

 

[The Oz]

Not a bad design. It's hard to fit a lot in when you're also including a high jump capacity.

 

[mike wightman]

I've just been busy with High Guard and it is possible to build a 10,000t TL15 ship with jump-5, maneuver/agility-2, #E spinal meson, 9x #9 beam laser batteries, a platoon of marines and two armed gigs.

A 15,000t ship can manage the above plus upgrade the maneuver/agility to 4/3, and have a total of 14x laser batteries. I haven't finalised this design because I preferred the 10k version for shooting up merchant shipping.

Both rely a lot on superior computer performance to protect them against the odd armed merchant or patrol cruiser type escort since neither has a nuclear damper or armour.

The high jump number is the problem. If it is dropped to jump 4 then the 10k ship can achieve maneuver/agility 4, while the 15k ship can get maneuver/agility 6/5.

Which is better, high jump number or high maneuver/agility?

 

[The Oz]

I would think that for a purpose-built commerce raider, high jump capacity is more important. If she runs into something she can't fight, she jumps away from it, and few merchant ships have more than 2Gs acceleration.

And high jump capacity does help the raider outrun the news of her arrival, at least for a while.

A commerce raider would need enough acceleration to get out of the 100D limit quickly, if she runs into something she can't fight. That's about all the need for G's I can see.

 

[marginaleye]

The high jump number is the problem. If it is dropped to jump 4 then the 10k ship can achieve maneuver/agility 4, while the 15k ship can get maneuver/agility 6.

Which is better, high jump number or high maneuver/agility?

I'd rank the three in this order:
1. a good jump drive
2. high acceleration
3. agility

As I see it, the only time a commerce raider is going to need a high agility is when it's confronted with a real warship. A commerce raider, however, has no business fighting real warships. Under such circumstances, it should flee, as quickly as possible. Completely refraining from using energy-consuming weapons allows one to use "emergency agility," which (assuming the raider has a half-decent maneuver drive) should be good enough to get out of the gravity well -- presumably, one can still fight a "stern-chase" battle with missles and sand, to cover one's hasty retreat.

In other words: in my opinion, half-decent maneuver drives are probably worthwhile, but there's no need to install a huge power plant just for the sake of agility.

 

[mike wightman]

Both of you have made good points, thanks.

Now if the power plant and its fuel are reduced in size so the raider relies on emergency agility, how would you use the extra space?
Bigger maneuver drive, add armour, more troops, more gigs, bigger cargo hold?

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Both of you have made good points, thanks.

Now if the power plant and its fuel are reduced in size so the raider relies on emergency agility, how would you use the extra space?
Bigger maneuver drive, add armour, more troops, more gigs, bigger cargo hold?

It more or less depends upon how you feel the "raiding" will work out. If you think you have a good shot at nailing commerce style ships - then you might want a prize crew. Since ships of 400 dtons and less require smallish crews - you could take a sizable number of low berths filled with prize crews. But rather than go that route, I'd design the commerce raiders to specifications that might prove unusual. First - purchase some "enemy" class consumable weaponry - ie if you were an Imperial raider, buy some Zhodani sandcasters. Buy some Zhodani anti-ship missiles and the like. The reason for this is so that if at all possible, you can live off the land so to speak. Another possibility is to use the low berths as holding pens for prisoners... Just some thoughts.

 

[mike wightman]

Here's a version of a 15,000t commerce raider, designed using High Guard.

hull- 15000t streamlined wedge with fuel scoops

bridge- 300t

9fib computer- 26t, 12EP

jump 5- 900t

maneuver 4- 1650t, 300EP for agility 2 (EA-4)

powerplant 9- 1350t, generates 1350 EPs

7500t jump fuel, 1350t powerplant fuel

Fuel purification- 133t

#E spinal meson- 1000t, 700 EP

11x #9 b.laser batteries- 110t, 330 EP

3x #9 sandcaster- 30t

4x 50t fighter/troop carrier- 260

77 staterooms- 308t, 5 single occupancy, 72 double occupancy

15 e/low berths- 15t

40 low berths- 20t

cargo-48t

crew- 19 officers (including marine commander), 99 ratings, 32 marines total

Cost- to follow

The low berths are to carry replacement/prize crews, while the e/low berths are used for prisoners.
Each 50t fighter can carry one 8 man marine squad.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Here's a version of a 15,000t commerce raider, designed using High Guard.

<<ship specs snipped>>

Nice ship, Sigg. I'd like more cargo space for supplies, but where would you get it?

Did you consider using standard 30dton ship's boats instead of 50dton fighters? The ship's boats are 6-G, and if you armed them with a triple missile rack and a Mod/3 computer they could deal with any merchie ever built (especially if they use nukes). You could even put some armor on them and they could still deliver your 8-man Marine squad.

 

[Morte]

The Gateway book has a description of a Solomani commerce raider operating in Glimmerdrift Reaches. The vessel is an outdated heavy cruiser. The captain "is scrupulous in observing the 'laws of interstellar war' as recognized by the Imperium and the Solomani Confederation. His vessel will always give an unarmed ship a chance to surrender, and crews will either be taken to a safe port or at least given provisions and a beacon if left adrift. The captain does not like making war on merchant spacers, but recognizes the necessity of what he is doing. He will fight hard against Navy vessels, and will destroy a merchant ship that attempts to resist or escape."

The commerce raiding in this thread seems a bit gentlemanly compared to what I expected, and the ships rather more expensive. Here's an alternate view...

The object of the exercise is to be a nuisance, to make the enemy commit far more resources than you do. You don't expect to have much direct effect.

Whilst I'm sure commerce raider captains would like J5-6, I expect they'll get old warhips that aren't suitable for the main battlefront anymore. That and pirate-style merchie conversions. They're cheap. To be really cynical, if they were too good at fleeing then the enemy wouldn't bother chasing them, i.e. they wouldn't commit the resources you want them to.

Operationally, you're going to be raiding single ships or convoys in star systems, often at some sort of choke point (refuelling, optimum jump points, whatever). You want to do your damage and get away before anyone engages you. With limited repair facilities, avoiding damge (by avoiding combat) is a big deal.

You might take prisoners aboard from a lone merchie you scuttle, to be released at some neutral world. You might put them in escape bubbles with a beacon if you're raiding in a system with rescue facilities, prior to destroying their ship. [Hmm, perhaps raiders carry hundreds of 7 day emergency bubbles, with extra powerful beacons that only kick in 24 hours after deployment. And a small boarding crew. And maybe some low berths for prisoners.]

If you're attacking a defended convoy, then the merchants are basically free fire targets. You are not obliged to give the escorts a tactical advantage by being nice to the merchants.

I can't imagine prize crews being a frequent thing. The odds of getting a prize home are too low, the logistics are a pain. Once you start trying to send home merchies worth a fraction as much as your raider, you're doing the enemy a favour in the "resources vs reward" equation.

I'd want my raiders to be J3/4, so they can do J1/2 into a system and immediatley J2 out to one of several scarper points. You'd try to top off the tanks in system before raiding, to get maximum escape options.

3G is probably worth the money so that you can close quickly with 1/2G merchants when there are military ships in the picture.

Having said all this, if your idea of fun is being the prize crew on a captured fat trader trying to get home across a quadrant of hostile space then don't let me stop you.

 

[Jame]

Morte, that sounds more like piracy or privateering than commerce raiding. Still, that is a good description, which I might "accidentally" find myself using.

 

[The Oz]

Morte:

I agree that regular Navy commerce raiders will not usually bother to take prizes, except for possible looting for life support supplies. Privateers will be different, of course. As a side note, if I were commanding a privateer, I'd save my prize crews for enemy merchies with at least jump-2, so my prizes would stand a decent chance of getting back to the prize court. Jump-1 captures would be looted and destroyed.

I see the high jump capacity as useful for several things:

It allows the raider to get into enemy shipping lines more quickly, or to use a longer, less patrolled route to get there in the same time.

It allows even better use of your "half-jump" tactic: a jump2/3 to get to the target, and still having jump3/2 to get out.

When fighting a big enemy (3rd Imperium, Zhodani, Solomani) it does allow the chance of outrunning the news of the raider's arrival, increasing the chance of finding underdefended targets.

I think naval raiders would attempt to interdict the enemy's main trade routes, hoping to cut them in between the heavily defended worlds along the way. Naval raiders are looking for targets in the 10,000 dton and up range, the really big merchies. Privateers would haunt the frontier worlds, looking for individual merchants in the 200 to 1000 dton range, or perhaps the occasional self-ecorting merchant convoy (where a bunch of lightly armed merchies try to protect each other).

Here's some commerce raider designs of my own.

Ship: Emden
Class: Seeadler
Type: Commerce Raider
Architect: Osmanski

USP
DR-K1545H3-496603-90509-1 MCr 11,800.571 15 KTons
6 sandcaster batteries
2 repulsor batteries
2 laser batteries
1 particle accelerator battery
4 missile batteries

Crew: 155
TL: 14
Jump: 5
Maneuver: 4
Computer: Mod/8fib

Cargo: 449.000 Fuel: 8,250.000 EP: 750.000 Agility: 2 Ships Troops: 15
Craft: 2 x 30T Ship's Boat, 10 x 10T Fighter
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 118.006 Cost in Quantity: MCr 9,440.457

The Seealder-class is a smaller naval commerce raider, relying on her particle accelerator and fighters to kill her prey. The missile bays are for dealing with smaller escorts and would not normally be used on the merchant shipping.

Ship: Graf Spee
Class: Lutzow
Type: Commerce Raider
Architect: Osmanski

USP
CR-M1545H3-496603-905G9-1 MCr 23,767.726 30 KTons
12 sandcaster batteries
4 repulsor batteries
5 laser batteries
2 particle accelerator batteries
1 factor-G spinal meson gun
6 missile batteries

Crew: 273
TL: 14
Jump: 5
Maneuver: 4
Computer: Mod/8fib

Cargo: 334.000 Fuel: 16,500.000 EP: 1,500.000 Agility: 0 Ships Troops: 30
Craft: 2 x 30T Ship's Boat, 10 x 10T Fighter
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 237.677 Cost in Quantity: MCr 19,014.181

The Lutzow-class is a larger version of the Seeadler-class, mounting a spinal meson gun to allow her to deal with the smaller cruisers. Again, her beam weapons and fighters will do most of the killing, while the missile bays are for covering a retreat or destroying smaller escorts.

Both classes include large cargo bays to carry enough supplies for extended cruises, althought the Seeadler-class is better at this.

 

[Jame]

Oooo! Nice ships, Oz! I might just take them...