Commerce Raiders

[The Oz]

Originally posted by marginaleye:
How seriously do the Great Powers take inflicting civilian casualties?

Maybe it makes me a softy, but I like to think that none of the "Great Powers" countenance casual killings of defenseless merchant crews.

I think that in TRAVELLER warships would order unescorted merchant ships to surrender and abandon ship. Vessels that refuse or fight back may be fired on. Escorted merchant ships are fair game and may be fired on without warning as long as the enemy warships are still active. Once the escorts are dealt with you have to start ordering merchies to surrender.

This does not apply to pirates caught in the act of piracy, or to enemy privateers or warships at any time, of course.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I agree totally, you can do what you want in your game, but the Traveller Adventure is one of the best supplements ever produced

So is SMC. Nevertheless, the Lurenti is a broken design.

I enjoy using book 2, book 5, T20, Brilliant Lances, GURPS Starships, T4 Starships, and even MT. Does that mean I've got a mind with three and a half times normal capability?

Multiply. Don't add.
Seriously, mixing design systems is one of the worst ideas there is, making the end result incompatible with both of its parent systems. At worst, it is just cheating. And this what it comes across as. It is illogical, inconsistent, cheating around the design rules. A level worse than the rampant droptank abuse so common in certain HG designs.

Well, you can build a High Guard ship with Book 2 drives, it says so.

"... if they otherwise meet the ship's requirements" which can be read as "the space requirements as postulated by these rules".
There is nothing about retrofitting a book 2 design with book 5 equipment, so nada for the TJ.
It could of course be possible to read this as freely mixing Book 2 and Book 5 components, but nobody with even a marginal interest in a balanced design system does this. Can I mix in MT controls and accomodations?

More evidence: the Kinunir, a Book 2- Book5 hybrid if ever there was one; the Gazelle Close Escort in Journal number 4.

Both the Gazelle and the Kinunir are 100% designed under HG rules. They were used as design examples for HG. Of course, they botched the Gazelle (by including more turrets than it could have), but that was normal.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[mike wightman]

Can I mix in MT controls and accomodations?

If you want to, go ahead

"... if they otherwise meet the ship's requirements"

i.e. jump number, maneuver rating and power plant number, which they can.

which can be read as "the space requirements as postulated by these rules".

Which they can never do since High Guard jump drive percentages and maneuver drive percentages are the wrong way round compared to Book 2 (why this wasn't fixed in one of the many versions of 2nd edition Book 2 is a mystery ), and therefore High Guard would have said you can not use Book 2 drives or fuel formulae .

Both the Gazelle and the Kinunir are 100% designed under HG rules.

Nope, both were redesigned using HG . The Kinunir gains 50t and a nuclear damper that are missing from the adventure design. The Gazelle in JotTAS 4, designed by MWM himself, is a 400t book 2 design with elements taken from 1st edition High Guard, it says so. These include hull armour, the PAW barbettes and two nuclear dampers.
But as you say Traveller in all of its incarnations has botched ship designs, just look at FSSI (<shudder>).
Cheers,
Mike

 

[BetterThanLife]

I think I drew that comparison earlier in the thread. Just the threat of the Tirpitz sailing tied up the bulk of the British Fleet in WWII. In the ore modern Navy the Kirov cuased all sorts of planning when it came to planning the big one against the Soviet Navy. You don't want the other guy to get Capital ships into your shipping lanes!! Though the way it will usually work is both sides will have capital ships rampaging around in the shipping lanes and that will make for a more static front. Because of the lack of Capital ships available for offensive operations. Unless you temporarily ignore the loss to your Merchant fleets and infrastructure. Not a good plan.

Under what rule set did you build a Jump-6 Maneuver-6 ship? I have never been able to get that combination together. Jump-4 Maneuver-6 is tough enough. (Especially if you are at TL-14 or less.) Too many compromises.

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Escorts become more important, or less important, depending on how you look at it when you run afoul of a "Fleet Intruder." (The original desigination of the Azhanti High Lightning class.) Using High jump Cruisers like the AHL would cause all sorts of problems to the defending ships. That would mean you would have to pull Capital ships off the front lines to run escorts. The AHL appears to be designed with this role in mind. And a surprisingly small number of Cruisers used in this manner would cause all sorts of havoc.

Hello.
You dont mean like the Graf Spee or the Emden or the scare that went through the Admiralty when the Bismark sailed.
Yes only one ship loose in your supply lines can tie up extraordinarily large forces (and you never have enough of them).

If i was going to war and i was going to start it i would have scouts on deep penitration atleast three months before war start (scouts 10000tons jump 6, manuv6,1*100ton refuel shuttle and at least 12months supplies) these ships would sit 600d from the gas giant or any other planet that dosnt get visited very often, once a month the shuttle refuels you, you do have system wide sensors otherwise why are you there.
For the three months you are on station before war should give you a good read on the system and what's in it, warships shouldn't turn of there beacons until war has started and anyone jumping in with beacons turned of is a warship.
No the raiders should not know where you are but they should have drop points designated where messages could be left, fast long jump couriers could visit and pick up messages from raiders and scouts. Messages in outer system (standard missile without warhead you launch it outsystem courier jumps in (i'm talking Uranus Neptune)transmitts low power wakeup call to missile it then lowpower transmitts back its message and blows up on command.
Eventualy one of the raiders or scouts will get caught and its drop point will be found, if its a drop point covered by a scout and it was a raider the scout should spot the resultant ambush as it's being set up and launches a warning message out to meet the courier (plain language (its a trap jump))then the scout waits if the hunt gets close they jump out if not they stay put.
If the scout gets caught its a bit harder for the courier.
The courier dosnt know who its picking up from so they dont know if there's a scout in the system or just more than one raider using the same drop point.
Bye. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Bhoins.
It a scout what guns i'l try and design it tonight also try the courier.
Until tomorrow.
Bye.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello Bhoims.
Yes you can build a jump 6 man5 ship.
Old timers has set in how do you pull a word or notepad print of Falkyns lovely spreedsheet (i'v done it before but cant remember how).
If you tell me i will post it and the courier here.
Bye.

 

[Jame]

What about using commerce raiders - not pirates, here, but actual shipping killers - like submarines? Have a "pack" supported by a "tender" which carries some resupply and concentrate on anti-shipping missions and you'll get an excellent threat.

 

[mike wightman]

Now there's a thought. Use SDBs/light Battle Riders as your commerce raiders. Drop them off in the out system by tender and rendezvous with them a few weeks later to move them on. A Navy would have to divert capital ships to deal with this sort of threat, as a rider could well outgun a cruiser sent to deal with the problem.

 

[Jame]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Now there's a thought. Use SDBs/light Battle Riders as your commerce raiders. Drop them off in the out system by tender and rendezvous with them a few weeks later to move them on. A Navy would have to divert capital ships to deal with this sort of threat, as a rider could well outgun a cruiser sent to deal with the problem.

Oooo, I like that one! Hope you don't mind if I file that for reference... Though what I had in mind was something smaller and jump-capable, you've taken the cake, Sigg .

 

[mike wightman]

Thanks, but if you hadn't mentioned "tender" in your post I doubt if I'd have had the idea

 

[obsidian]

What about a mini battlerider concept with say 3 400T SDB and a jump tender with J4-6,and M1-3

 

[Jame]

Archduke, that's a good idea. This would be TL14-15, right?

 

[aramis]

MT ships can get J6 M6 performance...
7% JD,
35% JF
~10% PP
~20% PF
17% MD

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
In T20 you can design j6 m5 ships though they aren't combat ships, They do make great long duration scouts and couriers.Bye.

 

[marginaleye]

What about using commerce raiders - not pirates, here, but actual shipping killers - like submarines? Have a "pack" supported by a "tender" which carries some resupply and concentrate on anti-shipping missions and you'll get an excellent threat.

Hrm...
Y'know, one could push the "submarine" analogy even farther if you installed Black Globe Generators on your commerce raiders. The only obstacle, as I see it, is price -- Black Globe Generators are just too darn expensive to routinely install on basically "disposable" ships.

I'm sort of surprised that a "Factor-0" Black Globe Generator doesn't exist -- one that's just good enough to absorb starlight and thus confer invisibility, but instantly collapses if anything more substantial than a micrometeorite strikes it. Yes, essentially a cloaking device. A very logical piece of "spin-off" technology, that ought to be well within the Imperium's capabilities.

Another question:
Do the people aboard a ship equipped with a Black Globe Generator know how much energy their shield is absorbing? If so, then it should be possible to communicate with an englobed ship, as long as you know exactly where it is: just point a reasonably powerful, narrow-beam pulse laser at it, and send your message using something like Morse Code. The englobed ship detects the message as spikes in jump-capacitor usage. Since you can't see a laser beam in space (because there's nothing to scatter the light), the transmitting ship won't reveal either itself, or the englobed ship that it's communicating with. Imagine an englobed raider and an ultra-stealthy "spotter," operating together...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

just point a reasonably powerful, narrow-beam pulse laser at it, and send your message using something like Morse Code. The englobed ship detects the message as spikes in jump-capacitor usage. Since you can't see a laser beam in space (because there's nothing to scatter the light), the transmitting ship won't reveal either itself, or the englobed ship that it's communicating with. Imagine an englobed raider and an ultra-stealthy "spotter," operating together...

My group came up with that idea about 10+ years ago. For the spotters, you use a cluster of tiny sensor drones - too small to be seen by the enemy, but they let you "see through" the globe.

The first BG-related device they invented was a "fuse", which shut the globe down as the capacitor bank filled up and stopped the ship being destroyed.

 

[savage]

Do the people aboard a ship equipped with a Black Globe Generator know how much energy their shield is absorbing? If so, then it should be possible to communicate with an englobed ship, as long as you know exactly where it is: just point a reasonably powerful, narrow-beam pulse laser at it, and send your message using something like Morse Code.

So you mean non-shielded ships would send this message to 100% shielded ships? They'd have to
know exactly where the ship was located to do that.
I suppose it would be a good way to hide a
shielded jump tender while the other commerce raiders duke it out.

he first BG-related device they invented was a "fuse", which shut the globe down as the capacitor bank filled up and stopped the ship being destroyed.

Fuses burn out during a spike. By the time it spikes your capacitors explode. Or was it a breaker of some sort. I suppose if we can track modern battery/capacitor levels it wouldn't be impossible to setup a feedback breaker that goes off a few EP before the maximum load (80-90%). But would the rest of the energy be redirected into engineering as an auto critical hit?

Savage

 

[marginaleye]

I suppose it would be a good way to hide a
shielded jump tender while the other commerce raiders duke it out.

It would also make it possible to hide warships just about anywhere -- not just among the asteroids and icy Oort cloud bodies, and down in the atmospheres of gas giants. Black Globe Generators consume negligible amounts of power, right? If so, you could "put englobed ships to sleep" (with their power plants operating at standby levels and their crews in low berths) with a flock of stealthy (and probably tiny) "sentinel drones" waiting for orders or a set of pre-determined "wake-up conditions."

Space is big and borders are absurdly porous. Don't wait until war is declared. Get your raiders into striking range in months -- years? -- before they're needed.

Countermeasures to "black globe cloaked" ships? Some sort of gravitic mass-detecting sensor, perhaps?

 

[savage]

Well that would be another low morale job. Hope you pay your NPCs well.

Actually would a gas giant atmosphere work? There is additional friction energy acting on the ship not including storms. The ship would have no propulsion.
If it landed it would be crushed.... it would have to have gravitics operational which would be absorbed by the shields. All a shielded ship can use is inertial. This is a bit of an issue.


Savage

 

[marginaleye]

Actually would a gas giant atmosphere work? There is additional friction energy acting on the ship not including storms. The ship would have no propulsion.

My understanding of hiding within gas giants is that no black globe is required -- the atmosphere itself keeps the ship hidden. I've always assumed that a ship hiding within a gas giant doesn't really maneuver at all -- it just uses its contra-gravity to avoid drifting down below its hull's "crush depth."

Well that would be another low morale job. Hope you pay your NPCs well.

The Imperium is a big place, and has trillions of citizens. If the Imperium can find people willing to be in the frozen watch, it should be able to find people willing to serve aboard "sleeping" raiders. After all, being in the frozen watch means running the risk of being thawed out rapidly, and then thrown into the midst of combat aboard warships that are already heavily damaged -- if they can fill those jobs, just about anything else should be a piece of bureaucratic cake.