Commerce Raiders
- Thread starter marginaleye
- Start date
Hmm, I think it's the other way round.
Privateering: the raiding ship is trying to make a profit for itself and its owners. It's a tactical, small-time thing. It's a private venture (hence "privateering") under government sponsorship. The privateer boards, it loots, it installs prize crews, it treats prisoners properly.
A pirate is a criminal version of the privateer. Pirates have no "letter of marque", they either shoot prisoners or sell them into slavery.
Commerce raiding: the raiding ship is trying to further the war effort as a whole. It's strategic, and probably undertaken by the navy. It wants to tie up escort/sweep vessels and reduce the efficiency of enemy shipping. Commerce raiders (should) obey the current rules of war -- which are liable to change, judging by submarines in World War II (early on they boarded, but it changed to "sink on sight").
Pirates and privateers are out to make a profit. Commerce raiding is expected to cost you money, but cost the enemy more.
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
Morte has it correct. I have a wonderful book on the practice of prize warfare called "The Prize Game," which has lots of evil things to do to PCs who decide to become privateers, should I ever get to run a game that way.
For example, it was not uncommon in the old days for a privateer (or a naval vessel) to take a merchant ship as a prize, get it successfully to a friendly port, and only then find out that their prize is not legal because of some technicality, and not only do they lose their hoped-for prize money, but they can be held legally liable for any damages, lost income, or other expenses they incurred for the owner of the merchant ship.
Wouldn't that be a nasty thing to do to your PCs?
For example, it was not uncommon in the old days for a privateer (or a naval vessel) to take a merchant ship as a prize, get it successfully to a friendly port, and only then find out that their prize is not legal because of some technicality, and not only do they lose their hoped-for prize money, but they can be held legally liable for any damages, lost income, or other expenses they incurred for the owner of the merchant ship.
Wouldn't that be a nasty thing to do to your PCs?
I should go hunting through boxes before posting this but thats too hard. Somewhere there is a Challenge article refering primarily to Pirating in the 2300 universe but from what I remember of it it'd be usefull to your debate. The author suggests the tactical deployment of a "catch" vessell and one or more "carry" vessells. Your catch vessell can then be any appropriate fast naval type ship you care to design/local navy/privateer/pirate has at their disposal etc.
Even it's choice of primary/secondary armament
becomes less crucial if you use this deployment profile as your "carry" vessells can also serve as your re-supply vessell. This both for consumables and crew/prize crew (best not consider crew consumables
. German U boats used other U boats and other german surface raiders as supply boats. So I guess my point is, what your comerce raider is, will depend alot on it's tactical deployment profile.
Even it's choice of primary/secondary armament
becomes less crucial if you use this deployment profile as your "carry" vessells can also serve as your re-supply vessell. This both for consumables and crew/prize crew (best not consider crew consumables
. German U boats used other U boats and other german surface raiders as supply boats. So I guess my point is, what your comerce raider is, will depend alot on it's tactical deployment profile.Well, that's certainly reasonable. No commerce raider captain would object to being given a J5 ship. In my navy, I probably wouldn't be assigning my high ticket ships to a secondary activity like commerce raiding. Not unless they were dogs in some other way.
But naval doctrine does vary, and some J5 ships are dogs^H^H^H^H not ideal for fleet operations...
Commiting 15k wagons deep behind enemy lines is pretty bold. I'd certainly want some prime supply line disruption in payment for that (as you indicate). You're on the way to reliving the Graf Spee story in space there.
My view is a bit more mundane, 2000 to 5000 ton older vessels that wouldn't hold up in a fleet engagement. They destroy anything with turrets, think carefully about anything with bays, and jump immediately on sight of a spinal mount.
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It strikes me that a lot of the fun here could be had on the intel/infrastructure side of these deep raiding operations. The raiders will want to gather information about targets, find local sympathisers to suppy fuel and stores, and cover their tracks while doing so. The defenders will want to deny them intel, track them down, predict their actions, and infiltrate/neutralise the sympathisers.
PCs could get involved in a lot of this stuff.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Oz said:
) and reduced the size of the power plant + fuel to make room for lots of extra cargo. The 50t smallcraft have given way as you suggested.
hull- 15000t streamlined wedge with fuel scoops
bridge- 300t
9fib computer- 26t, 12EP
jump 5- 900t
maneuver 4- 1650t, 300EP for agility 2 (EA-4)
powerplant 8- 1200t, generates 1200 EPs
7500t jump fuel, 1200t powerplant fuel
Fuel purification- 131t
#E spinal meson- 1000t, 700 EP
6x #9 b.laser batteries- 60t, 180 EP
3x #7 missile- 30t
5x #9 sandcasters- 50t
4x 30t ship's boats- 156
76.5 staterooms- 306t, 5 single occupancy, 71.5 double occupancy
15 e/low berths- 15t
40 low berths- 20t
cargo- 456t
crew- 19 officers (including marine commander), 98 ratings, 32 marines total
What do you think of arming the ship's boats with a fusion gun instead?
Good ideas, so I've replaced some laser batteries with sandcasters + missiles (useful when running away
) and reduced the size of the power plant + fuel to make room for lots of extra cargo. The 50t smallcraft have given way as you suggested.hull- 15000t streamlined wedge with fuel scoops
bridge- 300t
9fib computer- 26t, 12EP
jump 5- 900t
maneuver 4- 1650t, 300EP for agility 2 (EA-4)
powerplant 8- 1200t, generates 1200 EPs
7500t jump fuel, 1200t powerplant fuel
Fuel purification- 131t
#E spinal meson- 1000t, 700 EP
6x #9 b.laser batteries- 60t, 180 EP
3x #7 missile- 30t
5x #9 sandcasters- 50t
4x 30t ship's boats- 156
76.5 staterooms- 306t, 5 single occupancy, 71.5 double occupancy
15 e/low berths- 15t
40 low berths- 20t
cargo- 456t
crew- 19 officers (including marine commander), 98 ratings, 32 marines total
What do you think of arming the ship's boats with a fusion gun instead?
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
Arming the ships' boats with fusion guns would reduce the supply load needed. I like missiles since (with nuclear missiles) they are more lethal. But fusion guns have been suggested before as a "can opener" for anti-merchant work.
I'm not that worried about running out of missiles. I imagine the normal operating routine of a naval commerce raider to be something like:
1) Arrive in system and do recon from as far away as possible, maybe using small craft for some closer looks. Refuel as soon as safe.
2) Pick your time and your target, preferably a fair-sized convoy with only one or two small escorts, deep inside a gravity well but away from any insystem defenses.
3) Make the intercept, using the fighters/ships boats to round up fleeing merchies while the raider crushes the escorts.
4) Merchies get this offer from the fighter that catches them: "Abandon ship or we blow you up." Merchies that don't abandon get destroyed, crew and all, and you expend whatever missiles you have to in the process. Merchies that do abandon get looted for what the raiders can use, then get blown up. A single nuclear missile each will do for this kind of destruction since this isn't combat, so expenditures will be limited.
5) Enemy survivors are rounded up so they're all safe in one place, given enough life support to last until someone else comes to pick them up, and a radio beacon so they're easy to locate.
6) Raider jumps elsewhere (refueling as needed) and repeats process.
In this method, you only spend signifigant numbers of missiles on the escorts, and if you have a spinal mount you might not even have to do that.
I'm not that worried about running out of missiles. I imagine the normal operating routine of a naval commerce raider to be something like:
1) Arrive in system and do recon from as far away as possible, maybe using small craft for some closer looks. Refuel as soon as safe.
2) Pick your time and your target, preferably a fair-sized convoy with only one or two small escorts, deep inside a gravity well but away from any insystem defenses.
3) Make the intercept, using the fighters/ships boats to round up fleeing merchies while the raider crushes the escorts.
4) Merchies get this offer from the fighter that catches them: "Abandon ship or we blow you up." Merchies that don't abandon get destroyed, crew and all, and you expend whatever missiles you have to in the process. Merchies that do abandon get looted for what the raiders can use, then get blown up. A single nuclear missile each will do for this kind of destruction since this isn't combat, so expenditures will be limited.
5) Enemy survivors are rounded up so they're all safe in one place, given enough life support to last until someone else comes to pick them up, and a radio beacon so they're easy to locate.
6) Raider jumps elsewhere (refueling as needed) and repeats process.
In this method, you only spend signifigant numbers of missiles on the escorts, and if you have a spinal mount you might not even have to do that.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The logical thing to do now is to consider the shoe on the other foot. How to defend merchants against raiders?
Convoys with escort, destroyer or light cruiser class vessels protecting merchantmen. SDBs could be drafted into this roll as well.
How effective would armed merchantmen or Q ships prove?
Convoys with escort, destroyer or light cruiser class vessels protecting merchantmen. SDBs could be drafted into this roll as well.
How effective would armed merchantmen or Q ships prove?
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
First thing is to consider just how jump astrography works. If we go with the current understanding where jump masking can result in considerable normal space trips to get clear of a star's jump shadow, I'd think that convoys with escorts that stay together all the time would normally be the way. This is also the model for when you have a long way to go, with many intermediate undefended star systems between convoy origin and destination.
But if you go with the CT understanding that all you had to do was get out of the 100D limit of the origin/destination, you might try for "defended zones." In this model you post system defense at pre-selected arrival/departure points just outside the 100D limit. Incoming ships are told to plot their arrivals at these "jump points" so that they can be assured of protection when they emerge from jumpspace. Outgoing ships do the same, routing themselves to the defended jumppoint and then entering hyperspace.
Where populated, defended systems are close to each other (like Porozlo and Rhylanor) the defended zone concept will work well. Where the origin and destination are not close by, escorted convoys are more likely, but remember what was said earlier; convoys reduce your effective shipping capacity since ships must wait for the slowest vessel. Defended zones allow merchies to sail independently, so you don't lose cargo throughput to waiting, but it's not useable everywhere, so probably a combination would be the norm.
One "hidden" advantage to convoys is that they concentrate the defenders at the place the raiders want to be (around the merchantmen) and so it solves the problem of finding the raiders: they'll find you. If you want to kill the raiders it's better to form convoys as the raiders will attack and then you can kill them. Hunting for raiders in deep space is pretty wasteful unless you have some hidden advantage (as the Allies did in WW2 with Huff-Duff and Enigma decrypts) to let you find them.
I don't know if Q-ships or armed merchant cruisers would be very useful in a TRAVELLER environment, at least against regular naval commerce raiders. They would probably be useful against privateers, who would not be in ships any better, but regular warships should easily be able to deal with any converted merchantman.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Indeed. To add to The Oz'z answer...
Don't forget the variables of Jump transit. If your convoy is coming out spread over a few hours you'll either need to use some synchronized fleet-jump rule or nearly double your escorts and send some into Jump well in advance and keep a few back until all the merchies have Jumped. Then at the other end you'll need to patrol and police the exit variable volume until the whole fleet (or at least the merchies) have arrived or been declared "missing".
Or you might be able to just have an escort fleet of SDB's in each system. That would require pretty good scheduling though and presumes no systems in between where the merchies have to refuel or rejump due to short legs.
Armed merchies and Q-ships certainly couldn't hurt. In fact the right Q-ship playing lame duck (either arriving after the fleet has "given up" and started in or maybe faking a drive problem that causes it to fall behind might flush out a lurking hunter.
p.s. Nice topic btw Sigg Oddra, have to take a closer look at the design but I like it at first glance.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Hostilities break out so you send in the commerce raiders.
I would probably have them make two jumps minimum inside enemy territory before they begin their task of disrupting merchant shipping and supply lines. These targets/trade lanes would have to have been identified before the war.
After the first couple of months how would the tactics change?
Random attacks to keep the enemy guessing or attack to a pre-planned pattern that all the raiders know. A combination of the two, i.e. attack random targets but be at system X by... to coordinate future attacks.
Would it ever be worth concentrating commerce raiders to attack a major soft target. What if a raider discovers a lightly defended rear command post or whatever.
Should the raiders be accompanied by jump 6 couriers to facilitate communication?
This topic has me thinking...
I would probably have them make two jumps minimum inside enemy territory before they begin their task of disrupting merchant shipping and supply lines. These targets/trade lanes would have to have been identified before the war.
After the first couple of months how would the tactics change?
Random attacks to keep the enemy guessing or attack to a pre-planned pattern that all the raiders know. A combination of the two, i.e. attack random targets but be at system X by... to coordinate future attacks.
Would it ever be worth concentrating commerce raiders to attack a major soft target. What if a raider discovers a lightly defended rear command post or whatever.
Should the raiders be accompanied by jump 6 couriers to facilitate communication?
This topic has me thinking...
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You mean a trap?
They'd probably be on pretty loose orders regarding targets of oppurtunity with the Captain weighing the risks and making a judgement call. The only clear order would be no deviations until after the mission objective, no matter how tempting.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A trap?
The Captains of commerce raiders would be picked for their (psionic) ability to detect traps
Seriously, this job will be dangerous. Look up the mortality rate of U-boat crews.
Another thought. How about being realy underhand by slowly building a resupply/repair/refueling base in an empty hex deep inside enemy territory?
The Captains of commerce raiders would be picked for their (psionic) ability to detect traps
Seriously, this job will be dangerous. Look up the mortality rate of U-boat crews.
Another thought. How about being realy underhand by slowly building a resupply/repair/refueling base in an empty hex deep inside enemy territory?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I think there's precedence for it. At least I think it was an official bit of info or adventure I just embellished. It involved a forward cache seeded in Regina subsector by the Zho prior to the 5th Frontier War but accidently discovered and iirc turned into a trap by the Imperium before the war. Of course I can't find it now so I'm less than certain of any details
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Do you mean the base on Fulacin discovered during Twilights Peak?
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
Instead (or in addition to) couriers for coordination, how about having some of those long-duration system reconnaisance ships we talked about lurking in major enemy systems? In addition to collecting valuable data on enemy deployments and shipping routes, the spy ships could also serve as "mailboxes" where messages could be left for distribution to other raiders as they passed through the system. The spy ships would also either have couriers on station with them or have couriers coming by on a regular schedule to get their data back to Fleet Command, so raiders could use the same couriers to funnel their reports home as well.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Escorts become more important, or less important, depending on how you look at it when you run afoul of a "Fleet Intruder." (The original desigination of the Azhanti High Lightning class.) Using High jump Cruisers like the AHL would cause all sorts of problems to the defending ships. That would mean you would have to pull Capital ships off the front lines to run escorts. The AHL appears to be designed with this role in mind. And a surprisingly small number of Cruisers used in this manner would cause all sorts of havoc.
Richard Saunders
SOC-12
Hello.
You dont mean like the Graf Spee or the Emden or the scare that went through the Admiralty when the Bismark sailed.
Yes only one ship loose in your supply lines can tie up extraordinarily large forces (and you never have enough of them).
If i was going to war and i was going to start it i would have scouts on deep penitration atleast three months before war start (scouts 10000tons jump 6, manuv6,1*100ton refuel shuttle and at least 12months supplies) these ships would sit 600d from the gas giant or any other planet that dosnt get visited very often, once a month the shuttle refuels you, you do have system wide sensors otherwise why are you there.
For the three months you are on station before war should give you a good read on the system and what's in it, warships shouldn't turn of there beacons until war has started and anyone jumping in with beacons turned of is a warship.
No the raiders should not know where you are but they should have drop points designated where messages could be left, fast long jump couriers could visit and pick up messages from raiders and scouts. Messages in outer system (standard missile without warhead you launch it outsystem courier jumps in (i'm talking Uranus Neptune)transmitts low power wakeup call to missile it then lowpower transmitts back its message and blows up on command.
Eventualy one of the raiders or scouts will get caught and its drop point will be found, if its a drop point covered by a scout and it was a raider the scout should spot the resultant ambush as it's being set up and launches a warning message out to meet the courier (plain language (its a trap jump))then the scout waits if the hunt gets close they jump out if not they stay put.
If the scout gets caught its a bit harder for the courier.
The courier dosnt know who its picking up from so they dont know if there's a scout in the system or just more than one raider using the same drop point.
Bye.
marginaleye
SOC-12
I wonder how hard it would be to set up the rough-and-ready equivalent of a Class-D starport way out in a star system's Oort cloud to melt down icy asteroids for unrefined fuel. Covertly refueling capital ships without attracting any attention would be difficult, but commerce raiders (up to, say, ~10 dtons), stealthy scout ships, and couriers wouldn't be too hard to keep refueled. A few strategically placed secret refueling stations would enable to small ships to jump through enemy territory freely without attracting any attention, avoiding the gas giants entirely.
Didn't the Imperial navy recently switch back from battle riders to independent capital ships? That probably means that there are plenty of nearly obsolete fleet tenders floating around. I suspect that a fleet tender could easily be converted into a mobile Oort cloud base -- just leave the riders behind, and carry a few mining vessels (not that ice asteroids should be hard to find in the Oort cloud!) and a couple of big cargo pods fully of consumable supplies.
Hrm... perhaps the Imperium already has a network of such bases installed in Zhodani space, with life-support switched off and their crews in low berths, waiting for a signal...
Didn't the Imperial navy recently switch back from battle riders to independent capital ships? That probably means that there are plenty of nearly obsolete fleet tenders floating around. I suspect that a fleet tender could easily be converted into a mobile Oort cloud base -- just leave the riders behind, and carry a few mining vessels (not that ice asteroids should be hard to find in the Oort cloud!) and a couple of big cargo pods fully of consumable supplies.
Hrm... perhaps the Imperium already has a network of such bases installed in Zhodani space, with life-support switched off and their crews in low berths, waiting for a signal...
marginaleye
SOC-12
How seriously do the Great Powers take inflicting civilian casualties? I've been envisioning commerce raiders operating in a pretty ruthless manner -- blasting whatever they can, and then moving on at once, without waiting to either carry off stolen cargo or take prisoners (these activities are time consuming, and both prisoners and stolen cargo cut into the amount of supplies the raider can carry for its own use). Is crippling a merchant ship and then leaving it to drift without power or life-support an "atrocity", or is it just one of those "regrettable realities of war."
I tend to suspect that the latter is the case, particularly in wars between the Imperium and (a) Vargr, or (b) Vargr. Most (human) Imperial citizens probably regard Vargr as little better than "born criminals," obviously incapable of organizing and maintaining a "proper" interstellar civilization, and thus unworthy of humane consideration. Likewise, Zhodani are all willing tools of tyrannical psionicists, and thus deserve to die miserably in the cold depths of space.
I tend to suspect that the latter is the case, particularly in wars between the Imperium and (a) Vargr, or (b) Vargr. Most (human) Imperial citizens probably regard Vargr as little better than "born criminals," obviously incapable of organizing and maintaining a "proper" interstellar civilization, and thus unworthy of humane consideration. Likewise, Zhodani are all willing tools of tyrannical psionicists, and thus deserve to die miserably in the cold depths of space.
