Commercial starship lifeboat requirements

[rancke]

As far as merchant ships go, I have noted before that 'typical' merchant operations are not the only vessels that have to be considered.

I have the distinct impression that we were specifically talking about merchant shipping at one point, but my memory being what it is, I could be wrong, and I can't be bothered to go back through the thread and see.

So talking of non-commercial ships, many of them will have subcraft for other purposes, and no doubt their crews will be just as pleased for such subcraft to have a secondary purpose as lifeboats. But with the possible exception of military ships, I strongly doubt that any of them will spend money and volume on lifeboats with no other purpose.

Now, if I was a billionaire, I'd probably want my yacht to carry a jump-capable lifeboat.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Upon an outbreak of an illness, separating the ill from the rest of the population appears to often be a first step in trying to prevent the spread of an illness.

Certainly it is. A sickbay with provisions for isolating patients would be an excellent idea. And much much cheaper than a lifeboat.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

You're also forgetting two weeks downtime for annual maintenance, and that there are potentially customs delays on approach.

And then there's the whole issue of stars blocking direct access... which, for some runs, adds months of travel time.

I'm only considering time in transit, under locomotion. Where accidents/incidents possibly requiring evac happen. That wouldn't include time at "dock". Also, stars blocking access is not a factor in most settings/game versions.

 

[PFVA63]

Certainly it is. A sickbay with provisions for isolating patients would be an excellent idea. And much much cheaper than a lifeboat.


Hans

Hi,

Out of curiosity, how many Traveller designs and deck plans show sickbays? I believe some versions of the rules don't mention them at all and in some other versions they appear to be optional items.

 

[PFVA63]

I have the distinct impression that we were specifically talking about merchant shipping at one point, but my memory being what it is, I could be wrong, and I can't be bothered to go back through the thread and see.

So talking of non-commercial ships, many of them will have subcraft for other purposes, and no doubt their crews will be just as pleased for such subcraft to have a secondary purpose as lifeboats. But with the possible exception of military ships, I strongly doubt that any of them will spend money and volume on lifeboats with no other purpose.

Now, if I was a billionaire, I'd probably want my yacht to carry a jump-capable lifeboat.


Hans

Hi,

That kind of gets back to a previous point of mine that in reality it kind of seems to me that lifeboats already exist in Traveller in some form in that many vessels already carry small craft that can be used as such. My main interest is whether they are the best solution in all cases and/or whether other stuff could also be provided in place of, or in addition to, other small craft, especially for small starships and/or starships where a lot of people are carried etc.

 

[rancke]

Out of curiosity, how many Traveller designs and deck plans show sickbays? I believe some versions of the rules don't mention them at all and in some other versions they appear to be optional items.

My designs all do. A lot of official designs don't. Why do you ask?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Hi,

Out of curiosity, how many Traveller designs and deck plans show sickbays? I believe some versions of the rules don't mention them at all and in some other versions they appear to be optional items.

If you search you can actually find real world "tramp freighters" and small freighters. I've looked at many. NONE of them have "sick bays". Just simple 1st aid supplies that would be administered in the galley area. That being said, all of my mil & exploratory vessel deck plans (on larger ships) include a sick bay that also contains ELB's.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Out of curiosity, how many Traveller designs and deck plans show sickbays?

The same question can be asked for life boats.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Just a few more notes with respect to illnesses and disease.

I'd suspect that not all communicable infectious diseases that may be encountered will necessarily be unknown and/or untreatable, but they may potentially be untreatable with the facilities and medical supplies onboard a ship and/or whatever you have onboard may not be adequate for your needs. A disease may be a mutation of something known, a newer strain, and/or just resistant to what you have available for treating it.

Its also my understanding that while some diseases can result in fatalities not everyone exposed may end up expiring.

Because of stuff like this, and many of the other items I've mentioned previously, etc leaving people onboard a ship where the bacteria or virus etc that may be spreading the disease has infested your life support systems (similar to the references to Legionnaires disease and air conditioning plants mentioned previously) or where an outbreak has occurred, and is spreading, in the livestock that you are carrying and there is a real possibility of it jumping species, insisting that everyone remain onboard the ship, where there would likely seem to be a greater chance for them contacting the illness, rather than trying to screen as best you can and segregating those that do not show signs of contracting the illness, and eventually allowing them to leave via lifeboat/lifepod etc would seem to likely make more sense to me than to insist that they stay onboard a ship which may have a compromised life support system and/or a spreading outbreak of an illness in the livestock that they are carrying, risking further spread of the disease, and potentially making trying to contain and treat the outbreak even more difficult.

Kind of along the lines that I noted before, it kind of would seem to me to be the difference between telling everyone in a hospital that someone with 'the plague', 'ebola, or 'the bird flu', etc has been admitted and therefor no one is allowed to leave at all, and instead trying to segregate out those that show no signs of contracting the disease (including conducting medical tests to try and verify that) and letting them go (even if you hold them briefly for awhile under observation, away from those known to be infected and/or in an area where the disease may have spread, before allowing them to leave). (That is, when everyone gets onboard the lifeboat you can either wait a bit before launching to see if anyone develops symptoms, or while the lifeboat is in transit you can continue to monitor everyone onboard, and as help begins to arrive you can broadcast a medical warning etc).

To me, the thought of insisting that everyone remain onboard seems kind of similar to 'walling off a city and locking everyone in'. It may have seemed to be a potential approach during the Middle Ages, and may still be a valid approach for something especially virulent(?) and dangerous or unknown but I'm not sure its the right approach for all outbreaks and illnesses.

 

[PFVA63]

The same question can be asked for life boats.

Hi,

Exactly. That is why there is a discussion of whether lifeboats could be something worth having. Currently, most ship design rules that I am familiar with provide for the ability to carry small craft that can be used as lifeboats, and many such standard vessel designs do so. However, not all ships do so and for some the carrying capacity of the small craft does not seem like they might be well match to the passenger and crew capacity of the parent craft. As such, it kind of raises a question as to whether some other lifeboat/lifepod could also be considered for ships which may not seem to have enough space onboard for a full sized small craft and/or for those vessels where a large number of passengers and crew might typically be carried.

In the end, as I've noted before I believe that lifeboats already exist in the basic Traveller settings (in the form of existing small craft which can also act as lifeboats etc) and to me its really more a matter of can anything else also be added to the mix.

 

[HG_B]

Because of stuff like this, and many of the other items I've mentioned previously, etc leaving people onboard a ship where the bacteria or virus etc that may be spreading the disease has infested your life support systems (similar to the references to Legionnaires disease and air conditioning plants mentioned previously) or where an outbreak has occurred, and is spreading, in the livestock that you are carrying and there is a real possibility of it jumping species, insisting that everyone remain onboard the ship, <snip>

EVERYONE on board will be considered to be a carrier at that point as EVERYONE will have be exposed. Ergo, NO ONE is going to be allowed to "land". Everyone will be treated the same by the authorities. Thus, no reason to get into a small craft and putter around. Pretty simple really. I believe someone already pointed this out earlier on the thread.

 

[rancke]

Kind of along the lines that I noted before, it kind of would seem to me to be the difference between telling everyone in a hospital that someone with 'the plague', 'ebola, or 'the bird flu', etc has been admitted and therefor no one is allowed to leave at all, and instead trying to segregate out those that show no signs of contracting the disease (including conducting medical tests to try and verify that) and letting them go (even if you hold them briefly for awhile under observation, away from those known to be infected and/or in an area where the disease may have spread, before allowing them to leave). (That is, when everyone gets onboard the lifeboat you can either wait a bit before launching to see if anyone develops symptoms, or while the lifeboat is in transit you can continue to monitor everyone onboard, and as help begins to arrive you can broadcast a medical warning etc).

Or you could put the patient in a bed inside an oxygen tent in a separate stateroom and interact with him using the quite effective medical procedures that are already known to us today plus whatever procedures have been developed in the 3000 years since our time.


Hans

 

[PFVA63]

My designs all do. A lot of official designs don't. Why do you ask?


Hans

Hi,

I ask because a lot of discussions here seem to center around alternatives to the need for a lifeboat or a lifepod (which may well make sense to me for some ship types and/or in some operations). But, its not clear to me that such alternatives are necessarily currently included in basic designs and as such, incorporating them may also necessitate the need to modify some existing designs and/or deckplans and/or result in the need to maybe even alter the design sequences in the rules.

Specifically, if 4dtons per person is adequate for a small ship (down to 100 dtons) is it also still right for ships potentially up to hundreds of thousands of dtons. Is it possible that adding specific requirements for the carriage of a lot of passengers, such as the need for a dedicated sickbay and/or lifeboats etc, as well as other amenities etc also be potentially required?

With respect to sick bays, I believe that this is potentially a very good example for discussion since some rules variants don't discuss them at all while others treat them as options, hence it does not appear that assuming that they might be assumed to be present if not mentioned may not always make sense.

 

[HG_B]

Or you could put the patient in a bed inside an oxygen tent in a separate stateroom and interact with him using the quite effective medical procedures that are already known to us today plus whatever procedures have been developed in the 3000 years since our time.


Hans

PLUS, you have 7 days in jump (where no evac is possible) and only ~7 hours in Real space 'till you reach your destination world. I don't see any sane captain abandoning ship based on that alone.

 

[PFVA63]

Or you could put the patient in a bed inside an oxygen tent in a separate stateroom and interact with him using the quite effective medical procedures that are already known to us today plus whatever procedures have been developed in the 3000 years since our time.


Hans

Hi,

Actually its my understanding that stuff like oxygen tents, filters, biohazard suits and the like aren't currently fully effective as a means of preventing the spread of diseases right now. and as I've noted before, current Traveller rules actually appear to allow for milieus from first contact through the post Virus era. Its my understanding, looking though DonM's consolidated timeline that first contact between the Vilani and Terrans is supposed to have occurred in just under 80years from now.

 

[PFVA63]

EVERYONE on board will be considered to be a carrier at that point as EVERYONE will have be exposed. Ergo, NO ONE is going to be allowed to "land". Everyone will be treated the same by the authorities. Thus, no reason to get into a small craft and putter around. Pretty simple really. I believe someone already pointed this out earlier on the thread.

Hi,

I believe that that assumption is incorrect, as I've noted in my comments. Locking down everyone onboard a ship because someone has been diagnosed with a futuristic Legionaries'-like disease, increasing the potential for further spread of the disease and increasing the number of people that can serve as a breeding ground for the disease will likely not be a good decision. I believe that allowing more people to catch the disease will allow for a broader breeding ground for the disease providing for a greater potential for the disease to mutate and spread further and potentially make it even harder to control. Even if the authorities still treat the personnel onboard the lifeboat/lifepod etc as still potential carriers, by separating them from any infected livestock and/or infested life support system could likely provide them a much better chance of avoiding contracting the disease.

 

[PFVA63]

PLUS, you have 7 days in jump (where no evac is possible) and only ~7 hours in Real space 'till you reach your destination world. I don't see any sane captain abandoning ship based on that alone.

Hi,

As I previously have noted, by using the lifeboat/lifepod and/or ship's small craft as a location totally separated from the rest of the ship (especially in terms of the life support system) much of that seven days in jump could potentially be spent in the lifeboat/lifepod and/or small craft acting as a [physically separated "safe' zone prior to exiting jump prior to detaching from the parent ship after leaving jump (if required).

 

[rancke]

Actually its my understanding that stuff like oxygen tents, filters, biohazard suits and the like aren't currently fully effective as a means of preventing the spread of diseases right now.

It's my understanding that the phrase 'quite effective' means 'good but not perfect'. However, as I stated in a previous post, I assume that TL12+ medical technology will be better than TL7 medical technology.

...and as I've noted before, current Traveller rules actually appear to allow for milieus from first contact through the post Virus era.

Unless specifically stated, I assume the Classic Era as the default. If you're going to roam across all of time and space, I request that you provide directions that will allow me to follow you. Though honesty compels me to admit that I'm quite likely to decide not to follow you, since my main interest is in the period from Milieu 0 to the Classic Era.

Its my understanding, looking though DonM's consolidated timeline that first contact between the Vilani and Terrans is supposed to have occurred in just under 80years from now.

And conditions 80 years in the future is likely to differ significantly in a number of ways from conditions 3000 years in the future. Which is, of course, why it's a good idea not to discuss them interchangably.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

I ask because a lot of discussions here seem to center around alternatives to the need for a lifeboat or a lifepod (which may well make sense to me for some ship types and/or in some operations).

Your perspective seams to be "I want there to be lifeboats" now lets logically explain them. There certainly are, as you say, some ship types and/or in some operations where this makes sense.

My perspective when I bring things up is not to present alternatives to the lifeboat. When other facilities to handle perceived dangers in jump and normal space are already in place and a lifeboat is not part of the original design, it's the life boat that is the alternative and it often doesn't measure up as a better alternative.

With respect to sick bays, I believe that this is potentially a very good example for discussion since some rules variants don't discuss them at all while others treat them as options, hence it does not appear that assuming that they might be assumed to be present if not mentioned may not always make sense.

For Mongoose, sickbays are mentioned a few times in the core rules but specs for adding them to the ship are not included. Perhaps in one of the additional publications, sorry, I don't have the time right now to look.

Mongoose does also mention the 20 ton life boat and has this to say

It is a functional spacecraft but not suitable for extended journeys through space; its most common use is to ferry people and cargo between ships or between ships and planetside.

The overall design of the life support system is a bit undefined and murky. Ok, not a bit, a lot. In MgT, there is no life support costs for the bridge, engineering or even the common areas but there is for each stateroom. Probably more of a game mechanic for easily determining costs than a life support engineering specification. But it brings up the question of if each stateroom has it's own life support system vs a centralized system that services the whole ship.

A ship with every available tech possible (not ours - the proper Traveller tech level) for removing any contaminants and each person on the ship, if in their stateroom, with their own filtered and completely conditioned and recycled air vs everyone crammed together breathing the same air on a small craft with most likely a less capable life support system. Which is more conducive to spreading disease?

 

[HG_B]

Hi,

As I previously have noted, by using the lifeboat/lifepod and/or ship's small craft as a location totally separated from the rest of the ship (especially in terms of the life support system) much of that seven days in jump could potentially be spent in the lifeboat/lifepod and/or small craft acting as a [physically separated "safe' zone prior to exiting jump prior to detaching from the parent ship after leaving jump (if required).

It is quite easy to completely sterilize air supply into a compartmentalized part of the ship (heat & irradiation which is TL 7 stuff). Thus, it would be financially, quite stupid to have a life boat in order to substitute for that.