Cost of Ship Yard

[DNA]

if a player wanted to build a shipyard or star port in game how much should it cost?

i would assume it should be some function of how much does it cost for the largest ship of X capability you would want to build.

example cost of yard = cost of ship * x * number of ships built at same time.

but what should x be? 2,3,4 10?

open to ideas and suggestions.

 

[aramis]

I'd start with heavy industry modules as the basis, which are in TNE's World Tamer's Handbook.

 

[far-trader]

I can't recall is Trillion Credit Squadron had anything or not. Might be worth a look if you have it. I'll try to have a look later.

A comparable cost for a Class A Starport might be a modern international airport. A quick google turned up a projected cost of 7.2 Billion US Dollars for one as of last year. Figure more for cost overruns (almost nothing is built under or at projected cost).

That sounds like a fair rule of thumb in the making, I'd go with something like:

Starport Class A cost = (Pop Digit) x Billion Credits

Starport Class B cost = (Pop Digit - 1 ) x Billion Credits (the difference between ships and boats)

Starport Class C cost = (Pop Digit) x Million Credits

Starport Class D cost = (Pop Digit -1 ) x Million Credits (the difference in repairs)

Starport Class E cost = (Pop Digit) x Thousand Credits

 

[far-trader]

Had a look at TCS, nothing about starport/yard costs however, unless it's a typo, the construction time looks to be long, decades even. TCS indicates it takes 548 weeks (over 10 years) before one can begin building at a captured/surrendered starport.

 

[rancke]

A comparable cost for a Class A Starport might be a modern international airport. A quick google turned up a projected cost of 7.2 Billion US Dollars for one as of last year. Figure more for cost overruns (almost nothing is built under or at projected cost).

That's almost useless unless you can figure out how many people it serves. Even then, the difference between air traffic and stellar traffic will distort the analogy.

That sounds like a fair rule of thumb in the making, I'd go with something like:

Starport Class A cost = (Pop Digit) x Billion Credits

Starport Class B cost = (Pop Digit - 1 ) x Billion Credits (the difference between ships and boats)

Starport Class C cost = (Pop Digit) x Million Credits

Starports and shipyards are two different things. You can have three identical starports in three different systems, all of them with the exact same volume of traffic. But the one in the system without any yards is Class C, the one in the system with boatyards (only) is Class B, and the one in the system with shipyards is Class A. And the Starport Authority didn't pay for any of the yards; they're civilian enterprises.

Starport Class D cost = (Pop Digit -1 ) x Million Credits (the difference in repairs)

Presumably the same again, repair shops are probably civilian enterprises too. It's probably not entirely black and white, some starports may have subsidized repair facilities run by the Starport authorities.

Starport Class E cost = (Pop Digit) x Thousand Credits

A concrete building with a starport beacon sealed inside and perhaps a bus shelter with a telephone box. That will cost the same regardless of the size of the population.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

GURP traveller Starport work cost out. I have the book stored somewhere but never used it in a campaign, so no hard data comited to memory.

Strait CT Highport have been worked IMTU as a HG non streamlined spaceship with P-1 and M-1 to be taken as thrusters rather than true M drive. Bridge and accommodation, shuttle docking and cargo warehouses or anything else are all worked as HG closest equiv. As to how large for a world should the port be, the game involved competing trade cartel and multiple port, so I just figured how much traffic the investors hiring my players wanted to handle for game purpose. Otherwise, you get to have to work the whole of the interstellar economic of the world to figure out markets size etc... Note that I did not include yard in the above. Just as in DS-9 the port was a transit/maintenance station. If my memory serves me right we have no CT OTU clue as cost of heavy industry.

Selandia

 

[Icosahedron]

I think there's something in Pocket Empires, too.

 

[robject]

Plus there's my notes that Mickazoid compiled into PDF. It's not canon, but it's something.

http://www.columbia.edu/~mbk2109/traveller/Starports!.pdf

 

[rancke]

According to GT:Starports, shipyards cost MCr0.3 per T of ship capacity. Smallest possible shipyard, one that can make one 100T ship at a time, would cost MCr30. Boatyards can be smaller (And, it just struck me, could be the reason why a world has Stellar tech but nevertheless only builds boats; a yard with a capacity of, say, 50T, would be unable to build starships even if TL was 15).


Hans

 

[Hyphen]

According to GT:Starports, shipyards cost MCr0.3 per T of ship capacity.

Thanks, Hans, I was going to mention GT: Starports too. Having detailed Tavonni's downport down to the amount of asphalt we needed for the tarmac areas, I can tell yu that it is the most comprehensive source of starport info in Traveller (and I kinda wish I had it years ago!)

I began with the Judges Guild starports book (for 'port features), cross-checked against what I could find of Exionidas (sp?) and a few other JTAS notes. Then I based the structure on _Striker_ and l-s (etc) on _Striker_ & MT figures (as though it was a "grounded starship").

I'll have to go and look up what the total cost was. From memory, it was pretty high. ;-) Interestingly, it was in the same ballpark as John M. Ford's later masterpiece. I *think* the repair yards alone were at least 1 BCr (and that's for a small B-class).

 

[Hyphen]

Plus there's my notes that Mickazoid compiled into PDF. It's not canon, but it's something.

http://www.columbia.edu/~mbk2109/traveller/Starports!.pdf

It's pretty close to canon. I think I picked up a copy of this a few years ago, but I've grabbed it again for my personal Black Hole of Quality^TM!!

 

[robject]

It's pretty close to canon. I think I picked up a copy of this a few years ago, but I've grabbed it again for my personal Black Hole of Quality^TM!!

Being validated feels good.

Does that mean the locus of my Traveller-identity is external?

 

[aramis]

According to GT:Starports, shipyards cost MCr0.3 per T of ship capacity. Smallest possible shipyard, one that can make one 100T ship at a time, would cost MCr30. Boatyards can be smaller (And, it just struck me, could be the reason why a world has Stellar tech but nevertheless only builds boats; a yard with a capacity of, say, 50T, would be unable to build starships even if TL was 15).


Hans

Aren't GT prices in GURPS $???
I'm asking, because the G$ is specifically 1985 US$ prices in 1st ed, while the traveller CrImp pegs very tightly to the 1976 US$. Which means a bit f correction needed: 1985US$1.90 ≅ 1976US$1

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm/

 

[DNA]

ok how about this idea? players want to build a shipyard to build x dtons of ship(s) per year. it could be a pirate base of operations or a R&D yard etc...

1) use large craft bay rules for the size of dry dock needed to build x ship.
2) multiply that by 2 to give the amount of room for the fabrication machinery to work and operate. cost = manufactured hull price for total area.

3) cost of machinery = MCr0.3 per T of ship capacity * (TL-10)

this would give higher cost to more advanced shipyards.

4) use crew rules for engineering section as to how many workers you need.

5) if at high port or moon. add in fittings (state rooms etc)

 

[Selandia]

I'd about ok, with following mod

Using Bay rules avoid the abuse of free space, however, dirt side installations will be less expensive than high docking for you will not face all the environmental constraint. This been said, you may build in "open berth" (frame/cage dock open to space, the orbital equiv to a slipway) - at the cost of a lot of vacc suit operation - rather than building in "dry dock/floating dock" (equiv to Bay dock). I guess you can figure the adjustment for ship's structure.

Crew are underestimated. Large technical crew for design, unless building licensed ships. Large manufacturing workforce, unless you buy parts outside. Large admin group for the order dept, account payable (amongst other accounting), HR, production management and resources allocations, a large Data management dept beside those allocated to tech crew. Don't forget the small but annoying Finance dept and V-P legal affair. The bloody salesmen posing as Customer relation will also ask its commission. Client, eager to get what he paid for as well as a good insurance premium will have appointed a Certification Society ( the galactic incarnation of the ABS, Veritas, Lloyd's surveyor) anointed by an insurance co to hawk over the shoulder of your worker while been shadowed (and hopefully preceded) by your quality control staff.

Don't forget to pay your insurance premium in the advent that Pirate try to blackmail you with arson and figure the applicable law in case players try to start an union.

Try to keep the expensive orbital to the minimum and beware of Adventuring in Accounting, unless you want it, of course. Merchant Prince or Rail Baron tend to go that way. Running a simple Highport Terminal setup for an adventure involved the ref (me) in more accounting than I enjoyed.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Resource Units!

Well, not sure how you are doing things, but in MATU I figure it takes at least 1 RU to build a Shipyard, probably more.

I would go with a minimum 1 RU per Class, thus a Class B Shipyard (Boats and Repairs) costs 1 RU and a Class A Shipyard (Starships and Repairs) costs 2 RUs. Note too these would be small private Yards limited to building only ACS sized boats and ships (up to 2400 tons to 5000 tons depending on rules edition). For a regular Class B or A Starport Shipyard I would go up to at least 5 RU per Class, thus a Class C is 5 RU and a Class A would be 10 RUs, but they would function as standard Shipyards. These Yards by the way don't include the cost of the Starport, just a Yard, ports cost even more to construct. Oh and figure a year per RU of building time, just to keep it simple.

Another idea I was thinking of is charging 1 RU per 1000 tons of boat or 2 RU per 1000 tons of starship the Yard is capable of building. Still keeping the year per RU build times.

Now this of course means unless one of your players is a Noble or Merchant Prince the chances of them being able to afford such an outlay is not damned likely. Though, maybe they have good connections and a high rolling Patron who might mitigate some of the overhead as part of a payment for deeds done, which might make it a bit more probable. But then we get to the question of why does the Patron think this is a good idea? I mean a Patron may have a lot of pull and resources, but a Shipyard is a pretty big venture and I would need the players to convince their Patron to support their plan. Not saying they couldn't do it, just that it is a very serious long term venture and will tie up a lot of their adventuring time.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[robject]

Well, not sure how you are doing things, but in MATU I figure it takes at least 1 RU to build a Shipyard, probably more.

I would go with a minimum 1 RU per Class, thus a Class B Shipyard (Boats and Repairs) costs 1 RU and a Class A Shipyard (Starships and Repairs) costs 2 RUs. Note too these would be small private Yards limited to building only ACS sized boats and ships (up to 2400 tons to 5000 tons depending on rules edition). For a regular Class B or A Starport Shipyard I would go up to at least 5 RU per Class, thus a Class C is 5 RU and a Class A would be 10 RUs, but they would function as standard Shipyards. These Yards by the way don't include the cost of the Starport, just a Yard, ports cost even more to construct. Oh and figure a year per RU of building time, just to keep it simple.

Another idea I was thinking of is charging 1 RU per 1000 tons of boat or 2 RU per 1000 tons of starship the Yard is capable of building. Still keeping the year per RU build times.


Craig.

Very clever tying RU to Starport building and upgrading.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

It is what I do.

Very clever tying RU to Starport building and upgrading.

Thanks. I did a smidge more in a blog post, which can be found here.

This is only one part of my personal attempt to figure out how RUs are used in Traveler. Glad you like it.

 

[DangerousThing]

I don't know. I think that bringing RUs (Resource Units) into it is overkill.

A simple, small, shipyard designed to create starships up to 200 or 300 tons should be within the grasp of player characters who have become wealthy. I'm talking strictly custom ships with most of the major parts bought from reliable manufacturers (and resold at a high markup). When they don't have custom business maybe they can sell good quality standard ships. I envision only a couple of ships at a time.

For employees I'd think that they would only need one architect and an assistant, helped by really good computers. A knowledgable salesman would be necessary. And yes, a finance department and legal help, but perhaps they could be computerized or outsourced.

I'm also curious as to what kinds of automation are available in T5 between TL 13-15. This automation could be imported to a lower TL system if the location is better. Once you've designed the ship, could automated systems put much of the basic structure together?

Also I would be curious as to the costs of building a ship on a planet vs building it in orbit. While microgravity and vaccumn are a pain for workers, they also have some advantages for building large things. Currently part of the cost of building a ship, or a house, or a plane is keeping the parts where you want them until things come together, not to mention protection from the weather. Microgravity and vaccum make those problems easier.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Really now?

I don't know. I think that bringing RUs (Resource Units) into it is overkill.

A simple, small, shipyard designed to create starships up to 200 or 300 tons should be within the grasp of player characters who have become wealthy. I'm talking strictly custom ships with most of the major parts bought from reliable manufacturers (and resold at a high markup). When they don't have custom business maybe they can sell good quality standard ships. I envision only a couple of ships at a time.

For employees I'd think that they would only need one architect and an assistant, helped by really good computers. A knowledgable salesman would be necessary. And yes, a finance department and legal help, but perhaps they could be computerized or outsourced.

I'm also curious as to what kinds of automation are available in T5 between TL 13-15. This automation could be imported to a lower TL system if the location is better. Once you've designed the ship, could automated systems put much of the basic structure together?

Also I would be curious as to the costs of building a ship on a planet vs building it in orbit. While microgravity and vaccumn are a pain for workers, they also have some advantages for building large things. Currently part of the cost of building a ship, or a house, or a plane is keeping the parts where you want them until things come together, not to mention protection from the weather. Microgravity and vaccum make those problems easier.

How do you figure that RUs are overkill?

Seriously, even a small shipyard is a billion CrImp endeavor. Frankly, my take is ramping the costs down as low as possible, maybe even lower all things considered.