But losing a ship worth 60 MCr or more is way more expensive than paying for a turret...
General ** Could a 16-ton Light Fighter effectively operate as a pirate vessel?
- Thread starter RonaldTrany
- Start date
But losing a ship worth 60 MCr or more is way more expensive than paying for a turret...
Something I've been thinking about for a while is whether in frontier areas where piracy is a threat you'd end up with something like the East Indiaman in the C17 and C18 - these were routinely armed and also on occasion would paint additional fake gunports on so they'd be mistaken for frigates and would carry high value cargoes belonging to the various East India Companies.
Meanwhile lower value cargoes would be carried by smaller unarmed sloops, barques, schooners, scows and so on which were the main targets of RW pirates.
While in Traveller cargo costs the same to transport whether its value is just KCrs or MCrs per ton logically a heavily armed ship should charge a significant premium which shippers of sufficiently valuable cargo would happily pay.
And insurers might even mandate that for certain destinations and cargoes you only get covered if you take all due precautions against piracy and pay for an armed freighter or an escort.
Which of course requires a far more sophisticated trade model than Traveller has...
Meanwhile lower value cargoes would be carried by smaller unarmed sloops, barques, schooners, scows and so on which were the main targets of RW pirates.
While in Traveller cargo costs the same to transport whether its value is just KCrs or MCrs per ton logically a heavily armed ship should charge a significant premium which shippers of sufficiently valuable cargo would happily pay.
And insurers might even mandate that for certain destinations and cargoes you only get covered if you take all due precautions against piracy and pay for an armed freighter or an escort.
Which of course requires a far more sophisticated trade model than Traveller has...
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
The mail contract, 5 tons for Cr25000 requiring armament and a vault, suggests there is a market and precedence for paying a premium for higher security.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
No vault is required, at least not in the rules as written. You must be an armed subsidised ship:
"Mail and Incidentals: Subsidized merchants may receive mail delivery contracts, usually as an adjunct to their established routes. Five tons of ship cargo capacity must be committed to postal duty on a full time basis, the ship must be armed, and a gunner must be a part of the crew. The starship is paid Cr25,OOO (Cr5,OOO per ton of postal cargo area) for each trip made, regardless of the actual mail tonnage carried. Such tonnage will not exceed 5 tons per trip.
Other ships may be approached to deliver private messages, at times through the ship's owner or captain, and at times clandestinely through a crew member. Private mail is usually intended for delivery to a specific point (such as the Travellers' Aid Society building, or a tavern keeper), and is generally accompanied by a Cr20 to Cr120 honorarium. Throw 9+ for a private message to be awaiting transmittal, and determine randomly which crew member is approached to carry it. Serving as a carrier for private mail also serves as an introduction to the recipient as a dependable, trustworthy person"
"Mail and Incidentals: Subsidized merchants may receive mail delivery contracts, usually as an adjunct to their established routes. Five tons of ship cargo capacity must be committed to postal duty on a full time basis, the ship must be armed, and a gunner must be a part of the crew. The starship is paid Cr25,OOO (Cr5,OOO per ton of postal cargo area) for each trip made, regardless of the actual mail tonnage carried. Such tonnage will not exceed 5 tons per trip.
Other ships may be approached to deliver private messages, at times through the ship's owner or captain, and at times clandestinely through a crew member. Private mail is usually intended for delivery to a specific point (such as the Travellers' Aid Society building, or a tavern keeper), and is generally accompanied by a Cr20 to Cr120 honorarium. Throw 9+ for a private message to be awaiting transmittal, and determine randomly which crew member is approached to carry it. Serving as a carrier for private mail also serves as an introduction to the recipient as a dependable, trustworthy person"
Correct!
I've learned to think that there should be traders both with & without hardpoints/weapons, depending on how the captain/owner feels about having to fight for the cargo's safety.
You know, if using a fighter as a pirate ship is a viable option in Traveller, there should be some trading ships that also counter that with their own fighter(s). Or some trade routes have planned convoy's for mutual protection against pirates.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
A turret is several MCr, and the gunner eats space and money every jump.
A single turret isn't all that scary to an attacker that has, say, four turrets, a bigger computer, and bigger drives. The single turret merchant will be a smoking wreck before the attacker is seriously inconvenienced.
Unless the chance of attack is large, turrets are uneconomical.
If the chance of attack is large, the economic model does not apply, neither freight rates nor mortgages, as already pointed out.
Take a standard Free Trader:
Code:
A1-2211111-000000-00000-0 MCr 37,1 200 Dton
bearing Crew=4
batteries TL=12
Pass=6 Low=20 Cargo=82 Fuel=30 EP=2 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 37,08 kCr 7 416 kCr 155 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 74 160 High Cr 24 000
Fuel Cr 15 000 Middle Cr 19 200
Life Support Cr 19 600 Low Cr 16 000
Salaries Cr 7 200 Cargo Cr 64 000
Maintenance Cr 1 483
Berthing Cr 200
Summa kCr 118 kCr 123
Income potential per jump kCr 6
Yearly yield on down payment 1,9%Add a couple of turrets, displace a few passengers:
Code:
A1-2211111-000000-30000-0 MCr 44,3 200 Dton
bearing 2 Crew=6
batteries 2 TL=12
Pass=4 Low=20 Cargo=82 Fuel=30 EP=2 Agility=0
Spoiler:
Code:
Estimated Economy of Ship Standard
Ship price Down Payment Mortgage Avg Filled
MCr 44,28 kCr 8 856 kCr 185 80%
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 88 560 High Cr 16 000
Fuel Cr 15 000 Middle Cr 12 800
Life Support Cr 20 400 Low Cr 16 000
Salaries Cr 9 120 Cargo Cr 64 000
Maintenance Cr 1 771
Berthing Cr 200
Summa kCr 135 kCr 109
Income potential per jump kCr -26
Yearly yield on down payment -7,4%AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
A Subbie on full subsidy might handle a few turrets?
Standard Type R:
With turrets:
So, if someone else pays for the turrets, it's easier to afford...
Standard Type R:
Code:
R1-4211111-000000-00000-0 MCr 101 400 Dton
bearing Crew=5
batteries TL=12
Pass=8 Low=9 Cargo=200 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=1
Spoiler:
Code:
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 0 High Cr 16 000
Fuel Cr 25 000 Middle Cr 12 800
Life Support Cr 23 700 Low Cr 3 600
Salaries Cr 9 600 Cargo Cr 80 000
Maintenance Cr 4 057
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 63 kCr 112
Income potential per jump kCr 50
Yearly yield on down payment 6,1%With turrets:
Code:
R1-4211111-000000-30000-0 MCr 109 400 Dton
bearing 2 Crew=7
batteries 2 TL=12
Pass=6 Low=9 Cargo=200 Fuel=50 EP=4 Agility=0
Spoiler:
Code:
Expenses per jump Revenue
Bank Cr 0 High Cr 12 000
Fuel Cr 25 000 Middle Cr 9 600
Life Support Cr 24 500 Low Cr 3 600
Salaries Cr 11 520 Cargo Cr 80 000
Maintenance Cr 4 345
Berthing Cr 400
Summa kCr 66 kCr 105
Income potential per jump kCr 39
Yearly yield on down payment 4,5%Same considerations applied to putting cannons on East Indiamen - and yet as long as piracy, privateering and commerce raiding were a threat shipowners gave up valuable cargo space for guns and munitions and employed extra crew to man them and trading companies paid the costs in higher freight charges.
Only after the Napoleonic Wars were over and then the Barbary Corsairs put down did it become first unusual and then unknown for merchant ships to be armed.
As regards subsidised merchants yes you'd expect them to be armed if they are like the dear old March Harrier operating just a few parsecs from Vargr space and in a sector where full scale war can break out at any time.
Also consider that even a brief and inconclusive space battle can cause MCrs of damage to both merchant and pirate - so unless the pirates are effectively levying tribute which merchants can factor into their operating costs rather than taking the whole cargo and the ships themselves, the threat of serious damage works both ways.
And post LBB5 Traveller has a huge problem of scale - for every ship there is potentially another ship that is not just larger but exponentially larger and can swat you away like a fly.
Fortunately however it is a game so if you only have a 300 ton pirate ship a good GM will not force you to fight a 30,000 ton cruiser.
Only after the Napoleonic Wars were over and then the Barbary Corsairs put down did it become first unusual and then unknown for merchant ships to be armed.
As regards subsidised merchants yes you'd expect them to be armed if they are like the dear old March Harrier operating just a few parsecs from Vargr space and in a sector where full scale war can break out at any time.
Also consider that even a brief and inconclusive space battle can cause MCrs of damage to both merchant and pirate - so unless the pirates are effectively levying tribute which merchants can factor into their operating costs rather than taking the whole cargo and the ships themselves, the threat of serious damage works both ways.
And post LBB5 Traveller has a huge problem of scale - for every ship there is potentially another ship that is not just larger but exponentially larger and can swat you away like a fly.
Fortunately however it is a game so if you only have a 300 ton pirate ship a good GM will not force you to fight a 30,000 ton cruiser.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
U.S. Postal Inspectors: The Federal Agents You've NEVER Heard Of
The U.S. Postal Inspection Service is the primary federal law enforcement agency for the U.S. Postal Service. If you rob a mailman, send some illegal drugs through the mail, or you open someone else’s mail… the Postal Inspectors will have the authority to investigate you.
The Postal Inspectors are the primary law enforcement arm of the agency that are on par with special agents, but they don’t share that title; instead, they’re known as Postal Inspectors.
If you’d like to learn more about the Postal Inspection Service’s Postal Inspectors, including what they do, how they do things, and what it takes to become a U.S. Postal Inspector, watch this video!
Don't interfere with the mail delivery.
The U.S. Postal Inspection Service is the primary federal law enforcement agency for the U.S. Postal Service. If you rob a mailman, send some illegal drugs through the mail, or you open someone else’s mail… the Postal Inspectors will have the authority to investigate you.
The Postal Inspectors are the primary law enforcement arm of the agency that are on par with special agents, but they don’t share that title; instead, they’re known as Postal Inspectors.
If you’d like to learn more about the Postal Inspection Service’s Postal Inspectors, including what they do, how they do things, and what it takes to become a U.S. Postal Inspector, watch this video!
Don't interfere with the mail delivery.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Just realized that the notion of a 16 ton Light Fighter with (LBB2.81 standard) Drives-A/A installed has a fundamental flaw in it.
Links: 1 & 2
Which means that it's back to the drawing board at the naval architect's office for me on this topic.
This will mean new developments in my Pondering Starship Evolution thread (on the off chance that anyone has been following my thought process there) ...
Links: 1 & 2
Which means that it's back to the drawing board at the naval architect's office for me on this topic.
This will mean new developments in my Pondering Starship Evolution thread (on the off chance that anyone has been following my thought process there) ...
Bear in mind that TNE used 30,000 km range bands/hexes. A TL12 meson turret would have a short range of 4,200 km (actually 3,000 km when fire control is considered). Thus by space combat ranges it's hopeless. By orbital bombardment ranges it's quite good. The damage at that range is also quite good.Actually, a different use case would be as an anti-docking/repel boarders type scenario.
You've got a hostile craft closing in on you and you don't want to let them hard dock.
When they get close enough ... meson gun them into "having a bad time of it" as a way to tell them that they are Not Welcome Aboard.
Basically a "spike pit trap" laid around the docking points of your craft (so to speak).
A highly specialized use case, but definitely a possibility as an added layer of security options against being boarded.
After all, without matter transporters/transmat "beaming" of objects from place to place, any type of boarding scenario will require what effectively amounts to "contact range" in order to hard dock two craft together.
Another use case would be what amounts to "scuttling charges" for a self-destruct. You essentially point the meson turret at something "important" on your own craft and use the meson gun turret for a pre-programmed Ship Vaporized critical hit result. If you've got a way to evacuate the crew/passengers before self-destruct via meson gun (using drop capsules, perhaps?) you can lay quite the trap for an adversary attempting to board your craft.
However, for MOST "ship to ship" combat at orbital ranges, you're quite right that a meson turret would be "substantially useless" except at ridiculously close ranges. Less of an archer and more of a porcupine.
So as an anti-boarding and fire-support weapon for supporting boarding actions (carefully!) and from orbit (or when grounded, for that matter, given it's a meson gun) it'd be quite decent, though for good fire support in this role you'd need to provide more power as the standard space combat rate of fire (one shot per 3 minutes) isn't great for an infantry fire-support weapon.
But is the insurance for that run more than the cost of a turret, plus the lost revenue from that volume, plus the cost of a gunner and their life support, etc.? And will that turret provide 'insurance' as good as just buying insurance?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Probably not ... but then, pirates are rarely deterred/driven away by ship captains flashing a piece of paper with the word "insurance policy" written on it (somewhere).
If you've got pirates telling you to "heave to and prepare to be boarded"
... the turret is going to be better than nothing (and spoiler alert, the insurance policy IS NOTHING).I mean ... if THESE GUYS were coming for your ship ... do you really think an "insurance policy" is going to "be more persuasive" than a gun turret?
Probably not ... but then, pirates are rarely deterred/driven away by ship captains flashing a piece of paper with the word "insurance policy" written on it (somewhere).
If you've got pirates telling you to "heave to and prepare to be boarded"
I mean ... if THESE GUYS were coming for your ship ... do you really think an "insurance policy" is going to "be more persuasive" than a gun turret?
What about fake gun turrets? a lot - probably most - of RW piracy was actually about bluff and counter-bluff rather than boarding and cannonading.
Or just use electronics to spoof that you are really a frigate.
Badenov
SOC-12
Speaking of using electronics to fake who you are, it seems to me that Pirates are very vulnerable to any sort of advanced EW action that would make a warship appear to be a commercial ship, particularly one in need of aid.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
A smart pirate doesn't coincidentally turn up in the same place as a fat and lazy freighter, they usually have it surveilled in port.
The insurance policy isn't to deter pirates, it's to cover the cost to the owners of their ship being held up. It may well be that the insurance premiums are enough lower for an armed ship that it's worth arming your ship, or that certain routes are uninsurable but are not 'too' risky if you're armed. On the other hand, it might turn out cheaper to just insure the ship and cargo and eat the occasional loss, especially if the pirates are fairly civilised and just take the cargo and any portable wealth passengers might have and then leave (though given how expensive Traveller spaceships are, this seem unlikely behaviour).Probably not ... but then, pirates are rarely deterred/driven away by ship captains flashing a piece of paper with the word "insurance policy" written on it (somewhere).
If you've got pirates telling you to "heave to and prepare to be boarded"
I mean ... if THESE GUYS were coming for your ship ... do you really think an "insurance policy" is going to "be more persuasive" than a gun turret?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Two points:
- It is highly illegal (at least in Imperial controlled space) to "spoof" your transponder signal.
Why? Because there are no "legitimate good reasons" for doing so. - Corsairs hack their transponders to enable "spoofing" of their signals as a matter of entry level routine to becoming a career pirate vessel.
Note that this is precisely what the Type-S Scout/Courier does, standard, with its dual turret empty of weapons.
Mind you, the REAL reason why that was done in LBB2.77, LBB2.81 and LBB S7 is because of the computer programming rules used by LBB2 combat (which LBB5.80 made, thankfully, obsolete). Under LBB2 computer programming rules, the "basic" computer programming package for a model/1bis computer meant that you would get a (mere) MCr1 worth of computer programs "for free" with the construction cost of the starship. Under LBB2.81, p41 this meant that a Scout/Courier could afford the following computer programs out of their Standard Software Package allowance:
- Maneuver (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of maneuver drive)
- Jump-1 (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of jump drive)
- Jump-2 (2 spaces, MCr0.3, allows use of jump-2)
- Navigation (1 space, MCr0.4, controls use of jump drive)
- Anti-hijack (1 space, MCr0.1, helps prevent hijacking)
This wasn't even enough to afford the Generate program (1 space, MCr0.8) as part of the Standard Software Package. You would need to upgrade the computer to a model/2 (!) in order to get the following computer programs "for free" in the Standard Software Package allowance with construction of the starship:
- Maneuver (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of maneuver drive)
- Jump-1 (1 space, MCr0.1, allows use of jump drive)
- Jump-2 (2 spaces, MCr0.3, allows use of jump-2)
- Navigation (1 space, MCr0.4, controls use of jump drive)
- Generate (1 space, MCr0.8, produces flight plan for jump)
- Library (1 space, MCr0.3, contains local information)
Do you notice what's missing from that list?
Spoiler:
In other words, the minimum computer you need to be able to put lasers into turrets and get the program you need to shoot that laser as part of the Standard Software Package is model/3. If you want to use missiles, you'll need a model/5 for its Standard Software Package cost allowance.
And considering that LBB2 computers only go up to model/7 ... this meant that spending (lots of) MCr on aftermarket computer programs to enable combat capability was a pretty significant expense!
Simply adding the turrets (not included in original construction) plus weapons plus computer programs on a J1 Free Trader would increase the ship's cost by more than +10% ... hence why any armament was left as "aftermarket additions" to the basic class design.
The thing is ... sensor scans of a J1 Free Trader would be able to identify "Turrets? (Y/N)" ... and possibly what types of turrets are installed (single/dual/triple) ... but a sensor scan would NOT be able to determine (before the shooting starts) what weapons were loaded into those turrets, let alone if the computer had the necessary programs to be able to "run combat" on that specific starship.
So to put it simply, it was possible to "bluff" just by installing turrets (at operator's expense) and then leave them empty. You didn't have to go ALL the way to actually arming the ship, you just "make it LOOK LIKE" you were armed, even though you weren't (turrets: yes, weapons: no).
Of course, there would be other ways than just a sensor scan while on an intercept course to be able to determine if the turrets mounted on the hull were a bluff or not. If the ship was surveilled/staked out while berthed at the starport, intel could be obtained concerning crew size (no gunners on payroll means no weapons) in order to be able to "pierce the bluff" of the empty turrets. Likewise, a SPA employee/contractor could be bribed to gather intel while the starship is berthed and undergoing replenishment on the programs available to the computer (no Target program, no weapons) and pass that along to an agent/contact who works with the pirates to set up hits on outbound traffic.
Needless to say, just because your starship is parked in a starport berth doesn't mean that the "security threat" to your starship and crew has ENDED. It just means that the forms of security threat switch over from being craft to craft (while maneuvering) to being much more person to person (loose lips pirate ships) ... which can include anything (and everything) about the details of your starship and crew, up to (and including) coercion, kidnapping and in extreme cases murder for hire. Even something as simple as imprisonment of a crew member on trumped up charges by allies/colleagues of a pirate gang can keep a starship "stuck in port" for longer than was planned, giving a pirate operation more time to gather intel on YOUR starship and crew, which then raises the stakes for the merchant operator.
Security Through Obscurity "works" ... until it doesn't.
If you dive too much into the economics of piracy, you find it doesn't really work out and then you stop having pirates or ships to plunder (which also mean no pirates). Better to skip the whole boarding ships in space and stick with drugs and sophont trafficking, or corrupt the union handling cargo movement at the starport.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
For ACS LBB:2 ship combat is far superior to HG:80, as to firing weapons if you do not have a computer (program) then you can fire the weapon at -1 to hit and no gunner skill addition is possible (hidden in the small craft computer rules)
By using the hidden combat system in the ship's boat skill with the computer program rules you can hack an rpg rather than boardgame ship combat system, add a houserule or two to give other characters something to do. If you want relative positions use the Starter Traveller range band system.
By using the hidden combat system in the ship's boat skill with the computer program rules you can hack an rpg rather than boardgame ship combat system, add a houserule or two to give other characters something to do. If you want relative positions use the Starter Traveller range band system.
