Could the Imperium Have Been Saved?

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by daryen:
The fake Strephon was never defined. (Which was probably a good thing.) His full motivations never explained. (Or even really hinted at.)

And all of the other confusing stuff is confusing because it was added later, pretty much directly in the face of what had come first. IRIS was a tack-on and always felt that way. Strephon did stupid things because he wasn't supposed to be real, but then was after all. Things like that.

Same thing for Margaret's nuttiness. She turned evil because the writers needed her to be totally unsympathetic, not because she was an evil bitch the whole time.

________________________________
I admit I came to MT late (3.0 version, perhaps 2.5 if you like), so I took the whole story into context, and ALL sources approved by GDW (primary & secondary sources as we histroy majors are wont to say). I confess (does the heretic recant?Nay, I admit..).
From the sounds of things, daryen, were ye taken in by Maggie as well? Fell fer her did you?
Well, guilty-so did I. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. Always 20/20 vision with it.
As MJD said, lots of gray. So too the Rebellion. Thanks to having 3 different sets of cooks on this stewpot, we have the muddled through result that is the Rebellion/HardTimes/ Collapse.(v 1.0. 2.0, & 3.0-as T Foster has it correctly).
AS a GM, and storyteller, we have the right to decide what to use, and not too use in our TU's. There will be always the oTU, and then OurTU. Nuff said on that.

But we wanted to believe Strephon Lived. All tragedy has its place in storytelling/ GM-ing a scenario on this scale (metaplot, or megaplot?).

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by daryen:
The fake Strephon was never defined. (Which was probably a good thing.) His full motivations never explained. (Or even really hinted at.)

When MT came out I took the stance that a stand in Strephon was murdered because of the old DGP magazine.

In the issue that focused on Capital, four PCs get knighted by the Emperor, including a Pseudo-Bio robot. The Emperor knew about him and referred to him as AB-101, not the name Aybee Wan Owan.

The Emperor then asked two questions about AB-101:
</font>

• How much did he cost in construction?</font>
• Could make one in my image so I can spend more time waterskying?</font>

These two questions indicated that use of doubles was either used or considered. IMO the waterskiing reference is probaly where the idea of Strephon being either a weak or lazy emperor. Mostly likely this was a cover for the real use of the imposters.
In this same issue, they had an adventure that played out the assassination. I put two and two together and decided that Strephon wasn't there. He was either on holiday, involved with some other business, or he suspect of the plot and waited for Dulinor to strike. In any of these cases, especially the last, I also figure the Empress and Grand Princess had stand ins, either clones, actors, or robots.

So I was happy that Strephon survived. If things went differently in the first couple years of the Rebellion, I could have seen him returning to the throne. IIRC someone over at TML did set of essays that explored this outcome. That would have made an interesting mega-campaign.

Originally posted by daryen:
And all of the other confusing stuff is confusing because it was added later, pretty much directly in the face of what had come first. IRIS was a tack-on and always felt that way. Strephon did stupid things because he wasn't supposed to be real, but then was after all. Things like that.

Your take on the IRIS is the same I have. As I discussed previously with LD, the IRIS seem to be a pet project that got written into OTU. It could have easily been a cabal of Moot delegates that formed a succession committee, whose duty was to continue even if the Moot is disbanded.

Though I have to agree with the mind set that Strephon had during the Hard Times and Arrival Vengeance. Because of secrecy and bad decisions Strephon was guilty of making the situation worse. In the end, he was a broken man that wanted to be left alone.

Originally posted by daryen:
Same thing for Margaret's nuttiness. She turned evil because the writers needed her to be totally unsympathetic, not because she was an evil bitch the whole time.

I never saw her as evil. She was a traditional Imperial Noble who saw the 3rd Imperium as a framework for large scale intersteller commerce, which was one of the foundations set by Cleon I. Her problem was she never looked beyond the numbers. Any social problems were considered adverse effects to the economic health of sector. The concept is true and it work well during peacetime, but it just didn't translate well during war.

IMO Margarat was probaly like Hitler in someways. Without getting a discussion on what he did or did not know or order, various civilian and military members of the 3rd Reich inner circle all mention that Hitler dealt with abstractions and the general. He didn't really cared about how something was done, as long it was done. Some of the crimes committed by the officials was from them using what ever means to satisfied the Fuhrer's orders. On the rare occasion that Hitler looked at problem in detail, his reaction and solution would become the basis for all other problems. In summary, did Margarat just tell people to get something done without outlining how or following up on how the orders were executed.

This brings up some questions: How much detail did Margarat know about the corporate slavery, genocide, and other crimes that was committed in her name? Was the crimes really the result of corporate and military leaders following directives, but never telling the methods used only reporting a successful conclusion?

Was Margarat a criminal? Yes, as faction leader was responcible for the actions of her officers and advisors when they committed crimes while performing thier duties. If she gave specifice instructions than she personnally guilty of various crimes and atrocities.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
I admit I came to MT late (3.0 version, perhaps 2.5 if you like), so I took the whole story into context, and ALL sources approved by GDW (primary & secondary sources as we histroy majors are wont to say). I confess (does the heretic recant?Nay, I admit..).

How ironic. We are apparently bookends here, as I left at the end of 1.0, and only came back after everything was over. While you started with the revisions, I came back saying "Where did all of this *stuff* come from!?"

Like I said before, it was a bit of a shot to find out the "real" Strephon was actually real.

From the sounds of things, daryen, were ye taken in by Maggie as well? Fell fer her did you?

Not really, I did see her as an opportunist who had the next best lineage and was hoping to slip onto the throne. I just didn't think she was intended to be a genocidal nut. (Though I do think that "having Strephon's baby" was in character.)

I actually like the two pragamtists: Craig and, especially, Norris. Take care of your own, and see where the chips fall.

But we wanted to believe Strephon Lived. All tragedy has its place in storytelling/ GM-ing a scenario on this scale (metaplot, or megaplot?).

I actually liked it better with Strephon dead. If he was alive, then his inexplicable inaction lead to the deaths of almost a trillion people (looking at pre-Virus only), when reasonable, immediate action would likely have prevented the whole thing.

Thinking about it, by Strephon living after all, he goes from being tragic to utterly pathetic.

A dead Strephon is gunned down by a man close to him, by someone who holds his trust. He is a victim of his own attempts at reform.

A live Strephon is a pathetic, broken man completely overwhelmed by events, unable to even act decisively until it is way, way past too late.

You know, I had never thought of it that way before.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I'm funny that way. I make people think! Good analysis of Strephon, daryen. We are book ends. (1.0 & 3.0). My Patron and mentor GM however went through CT/ HG/ MT 1-3, and was utterly paralyzed by Virus' Onset. He felt betrayed (like thousands did). (I see him like those poor devils at Larmige/Dagudashaag after Lucan's Black Fleet nuked it "to prevent it falling into the hands of the enemy", and they'd been loyal all the way supporting his fleets. "Why? what did we do wrong?"

Margaret was an opportunist typical late period 3I Noble. The Xvitro heir of strephon proved that (using the dna proofs from IRIS no less. Made my 2 IRIS Pcs aboard the AV quite sickened at this monstrosity to achieve power.(Hey, we were from Hefry in the Marches, ya get married ya have kids after lotsa practice, we're TL-8 and do things the ol fashion way!). nO romance, pure Power grab.

ANd the Geonee-cide was turned a blind eye, she heard of it, But Tanzer was her foremost shipbuilder. That makes her negligent, and an accessory to genocide by one of her supporters.
War Crime? You betchya.

Thanks for opening a few eyes around here Daryen.
Especially on the Strephon issue. Since we Now can go with MJD's alluding he was the REAL McCoy, your perceptions at the end of the last post are particularly telling lad. From tragic to pathetic.
Aye, and then some.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
ANd the Geonee-cide was turned a blind eye, she heard of it, But Tanzer was her foremost shipbuilder. That makes her negligent, and an accessory to genocide by one of her supporters.
War Crime? You betchya.

I agree she is at least guilty of negligence and not overseeing her subordinates. The question I still have is how insulated was she with the "day to day" and the methods used in solving problems. Was she only informed that a problem was solved, but not how? As I don't have all the implied sources (the oldest are Hardtimes, Arrival Vengeance, Survival Margin, Knightfall), I really have no idea on what was written. (FYI: I didn't hear about the Geonee holocaust until I join CotI)

I'm not trying to justify or rationalise Margarat's (in)actions, but I trying to pin point the specific crimes she commited or knew full knowledge but did nothing.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Thanks for opening a few eyes around here Daryen. Especially on the Strephon issue. Since we Now can go with MJD's alluding he was the REAL McCoy, your perceptions at the end of the last post are particularly telling lad. From tragic to pathetic. Aye, and then some.

Agreed.

 

[Liam Devlin]

GAB posted-"I agree she is at least guilty of negligence and not overseeing her subordinates. The question I still have is how insulated was she with the "day to day" and the methods used in solving problems. Was she only informed that a problem was solved, but not how? As I don't have all the implied sources (the oldest are Hardtimes, Arrival Vengeance, Survival Margin, Knightfall), I really have no idea on what was written. (FYI: I didn't hear about the Geonee holocaust until I join CotI)

I'm not trying to justify or rationalise Margarat's (in)actions, but I trying to pin point the specific crimes she commited or knew full knowledge but did nothing.'
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Survival margin, Pg 51, date 198-1126; Emma Kasgilii of the Erasmus Alliance, Human rights organization out opf massilia makes the charges of genocide vs Margarets govt, on Anaxias, in Anaxias itself. Jules Partraum, a press agnet is sent to do the "George Stephanopoulis" spin control on this... as "preposterous" (1st deny, then stall, cover up, and last, lie).

SM, Pge52, Anaxias 248-1126: margaret's compound is surrounded by protestors at the Blaine Tukera mansion demanding answers to the Geonee-cide charges, she fled from the scene, but lip readers say she said"What would you have me say to may largest shipbuilder?"

Out of touch? I'll grant that shaky limb.
Unaware of the crime, No.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Survival margin, Pg 51, date 198-1126; Emma Kasgilii of the Erasmus Alliance, Human rights organization out opf massilia makes the charges of genocide vs Margarets govt, on Anaxias, in Anaxias itself. Jules Partraum, a press agnet is sent to do the "George Stephanopoulis" spin control on this... as "preposterous" (1st deny, then stall, cover up, and last, lie).

SM, Pge52, Anaxias 248-1126: margaret's compound is surrounded by protestors at the Blaine Tukera mansion demanding answers to the Geonee-cide charges, she fled from the scene, but lip readers say she said"What would you have me say to may largest shipbuilder?"

Out of touch? I'll grant that shaky limb.
Unaware of the crime, No.

I grant with the genocide charge, the evidence does suggest she knew.

However, did she give the order, just said "Please take of the situation as you see fit", or she did do a Thomas a'Beckett ("Who will rid me of these troublesome dwarves!") and someone in a sense of duty to thier leige went and committed genocide.

It boils down to what, when, and how much she knew.

I must be watching too much Law & Order.

 

[Liam Devlin]

GAB posted-"However, did she give the order, just said "Please take of the situation as you see fit", or she did do a Thomas a'Beckett ("Who will rid me of these troublesome dwarves!") and someone in a sense of duty to thier leige went and committed genocide.

It boils down to what, when, and how much she knew.

I must be watching too much Law & Order. '
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She watched the bottom lines, the stats the figures, the profit margins. She lost sight of the people (unlike Craig and Norris). A consumer ridden selfish perpetuating Imperium based on goods and services to kep the masses happy. Bread and circuses failed for rome, it certainly failed Maggie.

--And yer not watching too much L & O. I expect a good debate here. And (no pun intended) By george you even make me pause and think at times!
Kudos!

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
She watched the bottom lines, the stats the figures, the profit margins. She lost sight of the people (unlike Craig and Norris). A consumer ridden selfish perpetuating Imperium based on goods and services to kep the masses happy. Bread and circuses failed for rome, it certainly failed Maggie.

She failed to remember that the foundation of the Imperium, interstellar commerce, was to benefit all, not just the board and stockholders.

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
--And yer not watching too much L & O. I expect a good debate here. And (no pun intended) By george you even make me pause and think at times!
Kudos!

Thank you. Even though you follow the IRIS heresy.

 

[kafka47]

I don't think the Imperium could have been saved because there was not enough goodwill to keep it afloat. Unless, T20 is going to contradict me on this issue, the worlds of the Imperium are independent and the role of the Empire is to police the oceans. Therefore, one could state that the Imperium was not really an Empire at all, rather some sort of Galatic hegemony (in the Gramscian sense) bound together in some sort of social contract.

The means of securing consent traditionally was routed through the nobility but by 1116 the nobility were nothing more than expensive playboys which the populace had to support. Now, in comes the notion, of systemic change as expressed by Dulinor who takes the lead from DeTocoville ("For everything to remain the same...everything must change.") Now, that Dulinor ran away from his responsibilities at Capital proceeded to retreat to where he had his personal hegemonic base, within his own Domain.

Charging after him comes Lucan, who has no vision just the loyality of the old power structure. Now that begins to crumble away because he neglects the most basic thing that the Imperium was all about: Security. He too, now has broken the social contract. But, unlike Dulinor he does not do it for Honor or Reform, he does it to maintain the status quo.

As noted in official cannon, as the bombing of high pop and high tech centres occur the pendulum shifts away from trust of any Imperial or overarching authority. For the planets who had to pay nominal tithes now must raise armies and send their daughters and sons to war. For what? Nobody really knows. It was this uncertainity felt by the millions of citizens that forced them into disbelieving that there was hope for tomorrow and that what they were doing was right. Thus the Imperium which built itself up on the trust of the citizens to provide reasonable governance collapsed there. Sure coercion could still move people from here to there but it could not command their respect nor their blood.

As for the other fragments, they were far too removed and had far too small power bases to really affect the Imperium as a whole. They could perhaps play a role of broker in the early years of the rebellion but in the end merely served as a buffer.

Each of the factions were flawed in the same way the Imperium was flawed overall. And, because the pieces only acted in self-interest (at least according to cannon) there could be no reconcilation only momentary compromises.

Now, the stage is set for an even greater show of force hitheronto not seen in Chartered Space since the expansion of the 3I. The Black War crystallized sediments against the Imperium as an institution, reformed or not. For the nobles were seen as the murderous bastards that they played throughout history leading the people away from real change but using them as pawn. Therefore, for the Imperium to survive all had to be shattered to be reborn in the most unlikely of ways. I think this is what MJD has been hinting at during the discussion of the Fourth Imperium.

Plus, once the virus was released there was also no technological force (as the virus is a lifeform with TL F+ sophisication - remember the Hivers could santize but eliminate the Virus) that could stand against it. Chartered Space was fortunate enough that many of its strains turned inward and simply self-destructed.

Therefore, what the nature of the new social contract will be for the fourth imperium, it seems like: honor will be its centrepiece. What will the other powers be organized around? Some fear, others greed, others religion. The possibilities are endless now that there is a force that is acting to recreate the universe anew.

 

[Liam Devlin]

[/QUOTE]She failed to remember that the foundation of the Imperium, interstellar commerce, was to benefit all, not just the board and stockholders.
_______________________________________________
"Touch the devil, and you can't let go," as the saying goes. Aye, you've nailed it there GAB.
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[/QUOTE]Thank you. Even though you follow the IRIS heresy.

[/QUOTE]
_______________________________________________
Well, George, I am a Heretic, after all

 

[DaddyDragon]

I thought I'd chime in here on the "real" Strephon issue.

I liked Strephon, and in MTU, his double was killed. I based that assumption on the Traveller's Digest article previously mentioned by another poster, concerning his curiousity regarding AB-101.

I worked out that his visit to the Longbow Control site lasted for quite a while. And that he did not become aware of the situation (his assassination) as expeditiously as he might have otherwise if he were on some well travelled route or X-Boat lane.

Once he did become aware, I think he was too distraught to doing anything effective. Losing one's wife and daughter, at the hands of a trusted friend as he did just pushed him over the edge. Rather than take him back to Capital, his advisors and physicians took him to his ancestoral homeworld. If he had suffered a nervous breakdown of any kind, waltzing into Capital with Loony Lucan wouldn't have been a wise choice anyway. I do not think that Lucan would have allowed him to arrive. I rationalized this by concluding that he wasn't travelling with the normal amount of escorts as might otherwise have been a part of his entourage. Thus, his advisors and others may have made the most rational decision (at least at the time), and took him someplace safe till he could get himself back together (if ever).

At some point, he does manage to pull himself together, at least to some small degree. But by this time, things have spiralled way out of control. Lucan's reaction to the news that he was still alive only served to justify the decision to head for Usdiki. I think however that Strephon was a broken man following the assassination. So he set upon a plan to leave something to start the rebuilding process. He had a son geneered, to be a legitimate heir to whatever was left of the throne. He knew where all the completed stockpile sites were located (forget the name of the project) so that the Imperium could be restored in the event of another long night. And Avery was to be groomed for the purpose of putting it all back together (of course, the Avery slant of the story was later undermined by his Coreward Expedition with the release of the RSB).

Virus changed all of that. IMTU, Strephon figured out pretty quickly that Virus was loosed and fled to the Domain of Deneb. There he lived out his final, miserable years in silence and solitude, haunted by the loss of the people he loved, the fall of the Empire, and his own inability to prevent the events that sealed its fate. Only Norris (and perhaps Avery and Seladon(sp?)) knows for sure where that body lies buried.

I did't think (at the time anyway) that this scenario make him out to be any less tragic.

Of course, this was just my opinion,
I could be wrong.

Regards,
Larry

 

[Arsulon]

Larry,
Don't you think with the suspicion of Lucan murdering Varian, the alienation of the Moot and Margaret's circulation of a letter criticizing Lucan (garnering her 6 of Lucan's fleets and a "sizable proportion of moderate nobles") Strephon might have made a go of returning to Capital? With such a widespread atmosphere of uncertainty and mistrust isn't it likely that he'd be welcomed back (after a brief DNA test)? He could have made some perfunctory public appearances, with the caveat that he was grief-stricken, and turned over the supression of the revolt to the Admiralty. Alternately, might he not have broken through to Margaret's Stronghold and made his stand there? Bear in mind that Margaret had more to gain by having the Emperor at her side than lose, really (her faction stood for a return to normalcy: what better rallying point than the Emperor?)

 

[Garry_Nixon]

Just some rambling ideas.....

How about the possibility that Strephon had a hidden agenda.

He knows that Dulinor is going to stir up trouble, he even promotes him because of it.

He expects Dulinor to attempt some power grab, so arranges to be out the room so to speak when it happens. His plan is to wait until things are on the brink of chaos and the suddenly re-appear and re-establish order within the imperium.

The imperium is given a fresh lease of life from being rescued on the brink of collapse.

What Strephon hasn't considered is the method that Dulinor will use (assassination), given the position of Dulinors family in the sector fleet.

He is also not ready for the murder of his family and the actions of Lucan.

feel free to ignore the above if its to much of an insane ramble, I havent really thought it through properly yet.

Regards

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Garry:
Just some rambling ideas.....

How about the possibility that Strephon had a hidden agenda.

He knows that Dulinor is going to stir up trouble, he even promotes him because of it.

He expects Dulinor to attempt some power grab, so arranges to be out the room so to speak when it happens. His plan is to wait until things are on the brink of chaos and the suddenly re-appear and re-establish order within the imperium.

The imperium is given a fresh lease of life from being rescued on the brink of collapse.

What Strephon hasn't considered is the method that Dulinor will use (assassination), given the position of Dulinors family in the sector fleet.

He is also not ready for the murder of his family and the actions of Lucan.

feel free to ignore the above if its to much of an insane ramble, I havent really thought it through properly yet.

Regards

Strephon attempts to do a Nero (Burn Rome and start again). That's an interesting take. Arrival Vengeance does hint that he was interested in the american concept of democratic republic, as shown with the quote from Lincoln. He was considering some democratic reforms, but the only way to succeed was some large scale disaster, like a domain revolt. Strephon theorised that any intel about Dulinor was pointing to a revolt not a grab for the throne.

Unfortunately intel was wrong. While Strephon is handling Longbow, Dulinor make his move.

Strephon's depression, beside the guilt of trillions of deaths, is from

</font>

• There was two interpretations of the Intel on Dulinor's agenda. The domain revolt was the consider the most plausible.</font>
• As domain revolt was the most plausible, Strephon gave orders that centered around a "wait and see" approach, allowing Dulinor to begin the revolt inorder to justify any large scale action.</font>

The pivotal point between the OTU and the GTU is that someone guess the correct conclusion about Dulinor and offed him.

 

[Liam Devlin]

GAB posted-"Strephon's depression, beside the guilt of trillions of deaths, is from

There was two interpretations of the Intel on Dulinor's agenda.

The domain revolt was the consider the most plausible.

As domain revolt was the most plausible, Strephon gave orders that centered around a "wait and see" approach, allowing Dulinor to begin the revolt inorder to justify any large scale action.

The pivotal point between the OTU and the GTU is that someone guess the correct conclusion about Dulinor and offed him."
__________________________-
And if he planned to let Dulinor "have his revolt" and wait and see, this makes him all the more a non-hero in this mess we called the Rebellion.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. when you sup with the devil, be sure to own a long spoon!

Oi! whatta mess!

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
GAB posted-"Strephon's depression, beside the guilt of trillions of deaths, is from

There was two interpretations of the Intel on Dulinor's agenda.

The domain revolt was the consider the most plausible.

As domain revolt was the most plausible, Strephon gave orders that centered around a "wait and see" approach, allowing Dulinor to begin the revolt inorder to justify any large scale action.

The pivotal point between the OTU and the GTU is that someone guess the correct conclusion about Dulinor and offed him."
__________________________-
And if he planned to let Dulinor "have his revolt" and wait and see, this makes him all the more a non-hero in this mess we called the Rebellion.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. when you sup with the devil, be sure to own a long spoon!

Oi! whatta mess!

Strephon probaly wanted a proactive response that include the option of a preempted strike, but the naysayers and noodle-spined wimps said that would be construed as the Emperor being a bully against someone who may not agree totally with His Majesty. (A bit like what's happening today regarding Iraq. The evidence is there, but there's alot of opposition for action because of self-guilt or political agendas)

<He quickly hides behind the desk for the possible response on the Iraq reference>

Then again maybe Strephon wanted to personnally confront Dulinor with the evidence of an insurrection. IIRC this was a scheduled audience, and along with the official agenda the Emperor was going to ask the Archduke to either change plans, step down, or face the charge of treason and possible military action in the domain. Unfortunately Longbow, a higher argent priority, called him away.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Noodle-spines--would that be a reference to the pyschohistorians/socio-hydraulic programmers (pg35) he referred to in one of his diary postings in Survival margin???

What I think next to ask, is if MJD can shed some light on this "prior knowledge before the advent of Virus.."

Good stuff GAB, as ever was!

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Noodle-spines--would that be a reference to the pyschohistorians/socio-hydraulic programmers (pg35) he referred to in one of his diary postings in Survival margin???

Them and any cowardly wimps that feel any use of force will make them out as warmongers. (I think you know the types )

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Good stuff GAB, as ever was!

 

[Liam Devlin]

GAB posted:"Them and any cowardly wimps that feel any use of force will make them out as warmongers. (I think you know the types)
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Aye, there 156 of em in both houses total: 125 with (D) on the end of their names in House of reps; a pair of Socialists with (I) on the end of theirs. 6 abstentions due to "conscience" (okay, grant em that-THIS time). And 23 in the Senate with (D) on their last name.

I thought Neville Chamberlain's story was well known...Mayhap some 57th century Chamberlainitis types persuaded Strephon to "wait n see".
Alas if true.