CT Challenge - SDB using HG

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
How do you want to do the PBM?

You, me and a ref? (Hal? Interested?) We send our orders to the ref who makes all the dice rolls and reports turn by turn. Heck I'll even ref it, or take either side. Just straight HG combat. That was my initial thought. Suggestions?

 

[mike wightman]

Sounds fair enough

I'm still fine tuning the SDB, I may be able to get it down to 8-9000t or so with Hal's parameters. Which will make it cheaper and so I can throw more of them at a Plankwell.

To stand any chance against a Tigress I think the TL 13 SDBs will have to be much larger - 50kt plus perhaps - to mount the factor L meson. Anything less will not penetrate a factor 9 meson screen once relative computer model is added in.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Is it 5 damage rolls per hit? It's been awhile, I could be forgetting <scour book> hmm, nope don't see it. Just a single damage roll on the tables the way I read it.

Page 41 of High Guard 2nd edition:

All spinal mount weapons... ... inflict one extra damage roll (on each appropriate table) for each letter by which their size exceeds 9. The number of of extra rolls is reduced by one for each factor of armour the target ship has. Meson guns are not reduced by armour.

 

[mike wightman]

Oops, that means I can't count.
A factor E meson gun should roll 6 hits on the radiation damage and 6 on the internal damage tables.

Now if it's the first one that gets lucky...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Damn all those 5000T ships with Spinal Meson-E get nasty.

The really scary thought is that in T20 they are scarier.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Is it 5 damage rolls per hit? It's been awhile, I could be forgetting <scour book> hmm, nope don't see it. Just a single damage roll on the tables the way I read it.

Page 41 of High Guard 2nd edition:

All spinal mount weapons... ... inflict one extra damage roll (on each appropriate table) for each letter by which their size exceeds 9. The number of of extra rolls is reduced by one for each factor of armour the target ship has. Meson guns are not reduced by armour.

</font>[/QUOTE]D'oh, right right, I keep reading that and forgetting the armor not apply bit for meson weapons

Maybe the SDBs have a shot after all, with a little luck

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Sounds fair enough

I'm still fine tuning the SDB, I may be able to get it down to 8-9000t or so with Hal's parameters. Which will make it cheaper and so I can throw more of them at a Plankwell.

To stand any chance against a Tigress I think the TL 13 SDBs will have to be much larger - 50kt plus perhaps - to mount the factor L meson. Anything less will not penetrate a factor 9 meson screen once relative computer model is added in.

Yeah the Tigress class is whole different ballgame, mean ship and 300 heavy fighters to boot.

No hurry on the build, I need to reread (as opposed to skim ) the rules tonight in case I take up the referee role in this little skirmish. Can't recall the last time I played out a HG battle and I don't want to forget something obvious or confuse the rules with some other version.

I'm dropping you a private message to continue this so we don't clutter up Hal's thread with off topic stuff.

If we don't get a third to run the Plankwell or referee the battle we can always do without the referee, it's not like we'll cheat on our rolls

 

[BetterThanLife]

One thing to keep in mind the 50t FH in High Guard isn't all that impressive especially against an armored ship. (Even lightly armored.) To prove the point take two FH from Supp 9 and have a fighter duel. They have a rather difficult time even hitting each other much less doing any damage.Granted one of these monitors is bigger but with a better computer they will still be almost as tough to hit. You can pretty much ignore the fighters. Once you kill the Tigress you have effectively killed the fighters because they can't leave and no longer have a place to land.

 

[flykiller]

Anybody want to PBEM the scenario of single Plankwell vs a pack of 30 or so 10Kton SBDs? High Guard budget for the fleet of SDBs at MCr361,482 at TL12 (or MCr240,988 for TL13).

sure, if you let me design the sdb's my own way. or I can ref it, if you like.

(reading further)

sounds like you have a full crew already. well, if you have room, I'd love to.

 

[Hal]

I'd be REAL interested to see how this PBEM ends up - and it is germain to the entire reason that this thread got started. If you want however, to set up a new thread with the PBEM topic ongoing - I wouldn't mind it either way. But I would be interested in seeing the actual "Designs".

Currently, I'm looking at Cronor as a TL 13 world. If you are interested, I could give you the GDP value (per GURPS FAR TRADER) for Cronor and presume that an Imperial BatRon hit Chronor as a surprise target.
As I see it now? Lets assume that the Zhodani intended to start the 5th Frontier war and that they set their Military Expenditure at 6% of the World's GDP. Of that, call it 30% gets sent offworld for their "Imperial Navy" analog. Further Assume that the Zhodani military spend 60% on its navy, 40% on its groundforces. This would mean the following:

GDP x .06 x 3.1 (exchange rate) x .7 x .6 or 7.812% of the GDP is available for the ship budget.

Since this is prewar spending, the Defender gets 10 times this amount since the cost to maintain a fleet is 10% of the cost of the ship.

I will detail in another post, what the expected results will be according to FFW.

 

[Hal]

Hi Guys,
If I understand the rules correctly, SDB versus BatRon combat would look like this...

Squadron 154 is the Battle Rider squadron from THE SPINWARD MARCHES CAMPAIGN. Its attack factor in the Game is 6-2-8 (Attack/Bomb/Defense factor). Assuming that you are using Cronor as the example, it has 150 SDB factors.

(For purposes of this example, I will use rolls of 4 to represent the expected avarage result for both Imperial BatRon and SDB)

Roll 1d6 (getting a 4) and subtract 1/2 the TL of the SDB's. In this case, it would be a -6. Final roll is 4-6 or a -2 result (oddly enough, the game rules use a TL 13 example). This results in 20% loss rates for the SDB factors. 20% of 150 is 30.

Roll 1d6 (getting a 4) and adding Zero (TL 13 gets no bonus), final result is a 4. This is the minimum number of Defense factors the Imperium player must lose. As it just so happens, the 154th has a Defense factor of 8, and its reverse side is 4. The New counter (flipped over) looks like this: 3-1-4
Thus, for taking on a 150 Factor SDB fleet, the expected losses are 50% to the Imperial Squadron versus 20%. If the Imperial Fleet were to continue fighting to the death - it would inflict another 20% damage to the SDB fleet - and the SDB fleet would wipe the Imperial out entirely. (Turns out, that the Imperial fleet combat factor is 2 - which is half way between the 1 column and the 3 Column. As a result, it must use the 1 column in fighting the SDB's. The SDB's on the other hand, start at 150. Their attach column is listed as being 120 (same problem the Imperials have - too much combat factor that is midway between the next highest column and the one I used for the example). Both sides get to roll on the same initial combat chart for round two as they did for round 1.

Total casualties expected for the 150 factor SDB fleet is 40%. Total casualties expected for the Iperium Squadron is 100%. (hopefully I did this right)

 

[Hal]

Hi Guys,
I did some diggin in the HG rules. If you take a Class E meson against a Class 9 Meson Screen - you need a base 11+ to get past it. But I noted that if you look to the side of the combat chart - there is this little thing called "DM's Alloed to Penetrate".
Based on that - a ship with a class 9 Computer going up against a ship with a class 7 computer will result in a 2 point penalty for the to penetrate roll. As it is, a to penetrate of 11+ just got changed to that of a 13+

Looks like the E spinal mount isn't going to cut it

Looks like for any chance at all against a class 9 Meson Screen, the attackers at TL 12 need an L class Meson spinal mount. At TL 13, it would be an M class meson spinal mount.

Sorry about that.

 

[far-trader]

Hi Hal, No problem here, that is what the Plankwell scenario hinges on

For some reason it is listed as having only a factor 3 meson screen. Agreed it may be silly, or arrogant, or possibly a mistake but there it is in Sup. 9

 

[Hal]

Using the stats for the Plankwell versus a ship with Agility 5, computer 7, and L class meson, I get the following odds.

Plankwell gets a +2 bonus in its favor for avoiding being hit and avoiding penetrations. The avoiding being hit is negated by the size modifier, so the roll to hit a Plankwell is base 4+5 or a base 9 to hit. This is a 27% chance of securing a hit. Securing a penetration requires a base 8 to hit with a 2 point penalty - making it a base 10+ to hit. This is a 16% chance of success. Finally, you need to roll a 0+ to bypass the configuration (with a +2 penalty for computer differences).

All in all, it does look daunting - until you factor in that you get a LOT of attempts at the Plankwell.

 

[mike wightman]

Hi Hal,
yup, I noticed that last night when playing through some mock battles.
(And by the way it's K and L class meson guns for TL12 & 13, although TL13 also has the P option )

Solutions I have thought of are:
don't armour the SDBs, they are dead if they are hit anyway so concentrate on carrying the largest spinal mount as cheaply as possible;
reduce the maneuver/agility of the SDBs for much the same reason.

I reckon the SDBs are going to die no matter what because of the TL advantage, so the only hope of victory is attrition - have so many cheap SDBs that the higher tech force is going to suffer losses.

Having dispersed structure SDBs may pay off

 

[far-trader]

Looks like flykiller, Sigg Oddra and myself will be playing out a version of the SDB vs Plankwell scenario next week. I'll be posting a thread with the results for those interested.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Those 5KTon monitors a MCr6684 each are definitely starting to sound nastier. Without the tech inflation there are almost 20 of the suckers for the one plankwell.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Hi Hal,
yup, I noticed that last night when playing through some mock battles.
(And by the way it's K and L class meson guns for TL12 & 13, although TL13 also has the P option )

Solutions I have thought of are:
don't armour the SDBs, they are dead if they are hit anyway so concentrate on carrying the largest spinal mount as cheaply as possible;
reduce the maneuver/agility of the SDBs for much the same reason.

I reckon the SDBs are going to die no matter what because of the TL advantage, so the only hope of victory is attrition - have so many cheap SDBs that the higher tech force is going to suffer losses.

Having dispersed structure SDBs may pay off

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Hi Hal,
yup, I noticed that last night when playing through some mock battles.
(And by the way it's K and L class meson guns for TL12 & 13, although TL13 also has the P option )

Solutions I have thought of are:
don't armour the SDBs, they are dead if they are hit anyway so concentrate on carrying the largest spinal mount as cheaply as possible;
reduce the maneuver/agility of the SDBs for much the same reason.

I reckon the SDBs are going to die no matter what because of the TL advantage, so the only hope of victory is attrition - have so many cheap SDBs that the higher tech force is going to suffer losses.

Having dispersed structure SDBs may pay off

Dispersed structure ships can't enter a gas giant for refueling purposes unfortunately. Then again, a 19K dton hull might be a tad large for the task

I double checked my chart and it got me to wondering. A TL 11 SDB can use a K class Spinal mount without issue. TL 12 uses a Class L and a TL 13 ship can use a class M.

Hmmm. TL 11 can have no better than a 5 Fib computer. A TL 12 can go up to 6 Fib, and a TL 13 can go up to 7 Fib. This seems to determine whether or not a Spinal mount will be effective or not.

One of the thoughts I've been having regards to armor and such, and why one might want to have a class 3 meson screen even though it is useless against a Plankwell's spinal mount is simply the thought that these SDB's would have to go up against an enemy squadron rather than just one ship. A level 3 meson screen makes the SDB's invulnerable to all but a TL 15 (with the attending computer bonus of 2 to penetrate) factor 9 Meson gun. This means that you want the level 3 meson screen to handle any of the Meson weapon bays that can be squeezed onto an escort ship.

What might make for a more interesting scenario might be to take 4 Plankwells, 4 DD's, and say, 4 Sloan class escorts. Then, take the money one can allocate (assuming you want an even scenario where both sides get the same amount of money relatively speaking) and purchase your system defense fleet. Those escorts sure are going to be needed

 

[BetterThanLife]

Against a squadron of LACs at the same price the escorts will go uplike firecrackers.Even a lowly type E Spinal will make short work of most DD and FE.

Though IMTU the Sloan is a DD, just with a different name, for political or other reasons.Kind of like the MP43 in WWII. It was a battlefield rifle the worlds first practical assault rifle, but Hitler thought that Rifles had to be accurate at long range so forbid them. The High Command wanted them so they called them Submachineguns, which was a class of weapon that Hitler approved of.

My Battle Squadrons do tend to have twice as many ships in the 5kton range as they have DNs so the numbers still work though I also tend to add about as many DEs for scouting purposes, courier use, etc. (There are never enough 400ton fleet couriers when you need them.

)

Originally posted by Hal:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Hi Hal,
yup, I noticed that last night when playing through some mock battles.
(And by the way it's K and L class meson guns for TL12 & 13, although TL13 also has the P option )

Solutions I have thought of are:
don't armour the SDBs, they are dead if they are hit anyway so concentrate on carrying the largest spinal mount as cheaply as possible;
reduce the maneuver/agility of the SDBs for much the same reason.

I reckon the SDBs are going to die no matter what because of the TL advantage, so the only hope of victory is attrition - have so many cheap SDBs that the higher tech force is going to suffer losses.

Having dispersed structure SDBs may pay off

Dispersed structure ships can't enter a gas giant for refueling purposes unfortunately. Then again, a 19K dton hull might be a tad large for the task

I double checked my chart and it got me to wondering. A TL 11 SDB can use a K class Spinal mount without issue. TL 12 uses a Class L and a TL 13 ship can use a class M.

Hmmm. TL 11 can have no better than a 5 Fib computer. A TL 12 can go up to 6 Fib, and a TL 13 can go up to 7 Fib. This seems to determine whether or not a Spinal mount will be effective or not.

One of the thoughts I've been having regards to armor and such, and why one might want to have a class 3 meson screen even though it is useless against a Plankwell's spinal mount is simply the thought that these SDB's would have to go up against an enemy squadron rather than just one ship. A level 3 meson screen makes the SDB's invulnerable to all but a TL 15 (with the attending computer bonus of 2 to penetrate) factor 9 Meson gun. This means that you want the level 3 meson screen to handle any of the Meson weapon bays that can be squeezed onto an escort ship.

What might make for a more interesting scenario might be to take 4 Plankwells, 4 DD's, and say, 4 Sloan class escorts. Then, take the money one can allocate (assuming you want an even scenario where both sides get the same amount of money relatively speaking) and purchase your system defense fleet. Those escorts sure are going to be needed </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Hal]

Hey Guys, how did your PBEM go?