CT Chargen attempts thoughts
- Thread starter Golan2072
- Start date
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
You comments are always welcome, Dan.
This is a very good point. Well worth considering.
(And a strong argument for using the Survival Rule "as-is" without envoking the Optional Survival Rule.)
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Yes, another good point. Our "default thinking" gives us the idea that a Skill-1 allows a +1DM on a throw.
This certainly isn't always the case with CT. If you've got Vacc Suit-1, for example, that means a whopping +4DM to your throw!
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Yes, F-T, it is what you think. 
I think we would have used that 1-termer to stuff the hole in the commons. When you re-pressurize, the air sorta wedges him in good and tight.... :devil:
My house chargen is starting to look more and more like MT, without the 4-over extra skill, a revamped career structure (with 3 specialties per career and 12 careers), another roll for "Special Duty" to give more info/color, and backgrounds.
And, WJP, the rest of your post is good stuff (though, see above :smirk: ).
I think we would have used that 1-termer to stuff the hole in the commons. When you re-pressurize, the air sorta wedges him in good and tight.... :devil:My house chargen is starting to look more and more like MT, without the 4-over extra skill, a revamped career structure (with 3 specialties per career and 12 careers), another roll for "Special Duty" to give more info/color, and backgrounds.
And, WJP, the rest of your post is good stuff (though, see above :smirk: ).
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
See! That is a useful character! :smirk:
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I'm thinking now, he would have burned off too fast during re-entry. We would really need some nice, grizzled veteran in there.... :smirk:
We would really need some nice, grizzled veteran in there.... :smirk:Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I'm not sure if this was mentioned anywhere in the thread--I didn't scan through the multiple pages. But, what you're using here is the Optional Survival Rule, and as has been shown here on these forums, using the Optional Rule over the Original Rule can skew your effects. Basically, characters created with the Optional Rule tend to have more skills, on average, than those created with the Original Rule.
The reason I've used this rule is that I've tried to make these tests as objective as possible. Remember that the main cause for less skills under the original rules is the "chicken factor" - players muster out early out of fear that their character would die; the problem with this is that it depends on the player - some are more risk-taking than others.
Anyhow I'll add statistics when the failed survival characters are removed; let's see how this changes the skills without the "chicken factor". And if you have a way of semi-realistically modeling the "chicken-factor" I'll gladly redo the whole tests under the core rules with this factor included.
So, the statistics without the failed-survival characters are:
- Average generation time 4:55 min.
- Average number of terms: 2.7.
- Average number of skill points: 5.8.
- Average number of distinct skills: 4.5.
- Average number of ranks in a particular skill: 1.3 (just like the general statistic).
As you can see, without the "chicken factor", enforcing the vanilla KIA rule actually increases the average number of skills as well as generation time, as this eliminates the large number of 20-years-old half-term characters with a skill or two.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
You're right, it depends on the player--whether he's feeling "risky", whether he's become attached to his character through chargen, whether he'd rather have this character die so he can re-roll another one.
It's very subjective and hard to quantify.
That's because those who make it have survived and therefore have more skills. I don't think that accurately represents real characters used in a game, though, when the GM is enforcing the original Survival rule. As you say, it doesn't consider the "chicken factor"--when the player decides to end chargen because he thinks he's ahead of the game (or for some other reason--like he's attached to his character).
It does have a very real effect on the outcome, though.
If it were me, I'd simulate the chicken factor by simply rolling the 24 characters you rolled up for this excercise with the belief that each character is your character.
If he's a good character, then don't be risky with him. End chargen. If he's not so good, of if you're feeling lucky, then go for it.
Just be consistent and true to the action of rolling up the character--that's what will return the best results in this analysis.
You could even enlist some friends so that a different sensibility other than your own was considered. Have every other gamer you know create two characters with you?
I could think of some ways to do this statistically, but I think the approach above best simulates what we're trying to achieve.
Big fan of the chicken-factor.
There's another thing I call the Effit Factor. It usually applies to Merchants, but also to other fields when promotion's a real issue. The merchant bucking for a ship, who finds himself still a 4th officer in his 4th term, knows that the minuscule chance of making Captain has just become astronomically low - and so he either bails, or holds out for minimum retirement.
Does the assiduous application of the chicken-factor to Mercenary and High Guard keep those systems from being as unbalancing as I remember them to be? If it smoothed the unbalance out, I'd almost be tempted to open my LBB123TU to LBB4-8. Almost.*
*(When I look at LBB6 I get turned off it. I like my Independent Scouts too much, and LBB6 is too steeped in the OTU for me.)
There's another thing I call the Effit Factor. It usually applies to Merchants, but also to other fields when promotion's a real issue. The merchant bucking for a ship, who finds himself still a 4th officer in his 4th term, knows that the minuscule chance of making Captain has just become astronomically low - and so he either bails, or holds out for minimum retirement.
Does the assiduous application of the chicken-factor to Mercenary and High Guard keep those systems from being as unbalancing as I remember them to be? If it smoothed the unbalance out, I'd almost be tempted to open my LBB123TU to LBB4-8. Almost.*
*(When I look at LBB6 I get turned off it. I like my Independent Scouts too much, and LBB6 is too steeped in the OTU for me.)
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I think it does.
Marc & Co. knew what they were doing when they created the Advanced Chargen system. They hadn't forgotten what they'd done in LBB1 and Sup 4.
If the original Survival Rule is enforced, I believe the Advanced Chargen characters are just about as likely to have a number of skills as a character who was generated using Basic Chargen--counting the chicken factor and your effit factor as well.
For proof, compare characters from 1001 characters and Veterans to see how they look. They're both compatible.
I believe that's what GDW was going for in the two systems.
I also believe that the Optional Survival Rule is so wide spread that many GMs don't think of Traveller any other way. I believe the Optional Surival Rule is one of the main culprits in placing Book 1 and Book 4 characters on a non-level playing field.
Enforcing the original Survival Rule--that's the key.
But the 'Basic' characters should be older since the 'Advanced' characters gain skills per year instead of per term. if the 'Chicken Factor' averages 3 survival rolls before the player wants to 'retire' then the 'Basic' character will have survived 3 terms (age 30) while the 'Advanced' character will complete only the first term (age 22).
The Optional Survival Roll should probably be offset with a penalty to re-enlistment to force people out sooner and maintain skill balance. Perhaps -1 per 2 years('Advanced') or -2 per term ('Basic'). Since the 'chicken factor' cannot be quantified, the modifiers should be set to statistically match 'Basic' and 'Advanced' characters with the 'Veterans' from the rules.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
What you're forgetting, though is that Advanced Characters throw more Survival Throws than Basic characters. A Basic character throws it once per 4 years. An Advanced Character could throw it as many as 4 times in 4 years.
It's true that the Advanced Chargen Survival Throws are easier, and the percentage of success is about the same (did the math myself somewhere here in another thread on the forum). But, the chicken factor applies to both Advanced Chargen and Basic Chargen characters.
If you roll up a ton of characters by hand, enforcing the Survival Rule (and assuming the chicken factor does indeed impeded some characters from going re-enlisting), then those characters really do start to look like what we're presented in 1001 Characters. (And, I say roll up by hand because not one of the computerized Classic Traveller character generators follows character generation to the letter of the official rules.)
The same holds true for the characters presented in Veterans. That supplement is very representative of what you would get by rolling them up by hand.
Compare characters from the two supplements.
They're pretty compatible. The Advanced Chargen characters really don't have that much of an edge on the Basic Characters, if the letter of the rule is followed (not using Optional Surival, either).
Of course, when talking statistics, the "chicken factor" is hard to quantify.
It's true that the Advanced Chargen Survival Throws are easier, and the percentage of success is about the same (did the math myself somewhere here in another thread on the forum). But, the chicken factor applies to both Advanced Chargen and Basic Chargen characters.
If you roll up a ton of characters by hand, enforcing the Survival Rule (and assuming the chicken factor does indeed impeded some characters from going re-enlisting), then those characters really do start to look like what we're presented in 1001 Characters. (And, I say roll up by hand because not one of the computerized Classic Traveller character generators follows character generation to the letter of the official rules.)
The same holds true for the characters presented in Veterans. That supplement is very representative of what you would get by rolling them up by hand.
Compare characters from the two supplements.
They're pretty compatible. The Advanced Chargen characters really don't have that much of an edge on the Basic Characters, if the letter of the rule is followed (not using Optional Surival, either).
Of course, when talking statistics, the "chicken factor" is hard to quantify.
That's exactly the reason why I've used the Optional Survival Rule in my character generation tests - I've tried to be as objective as possible and the "chicken factor" is purely subjective (some players are risk-takers, some are less so).
Fiddled around last night with some LBB4-6 chargen, comparing it with LBB1 results. Surprised to see it not too far out of line: the main difference in skills was areas of high expertise in somewhat obscure and (for PCs) often irrelevant areas: Really, how often in an adventuring session can you squeeze in VRF Gauss-3? So in spite of what I saw to be higher skill levels per term, it wasn't so bad.
Even book 6 didn't bug me so much. I've never really clapped eyes on book 7 or 8...
But for the purpose of MTU I still think LBB1 chargen does best.
Even book 6 didn't bug me so much. I've never really clapped eyes on book 7 or 8...
But for the purpose of MTU I still think LBB1 chargen does best.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
That thing's gonna be a bear in a bar brawl:
LBB1 Scout decks Navvy
LBB1 Marine decks scout's buddy
LBB1 Merchant breaks a chair over Marine's head
LBB1 Trooper breaks a bottle on the Merchant's.
Book 4 Mercenary HOOOOOOOOOOOM expertly takes out the wall and everyone in the bar with the VRF Gauss..
Mercenary gets out and looks fruitlessly for something to drink.
Book 5 Cruiser wastes Book 1 Cruiser in orbit with a radioactive hail of particle beams, then erases the bar with her spinal Meson.
Book 6 Scout saddles up and looks for another bar.
Book 7 Merchant buys the land the bar used to be on for a handful of beads, and considers opening another bar once the dust settles.
Book 8 Robot shows up with a mop and waits for instructions.
LBB1 Scout decks Navvy
LBB1 Marine decks scout's buddy
LBB1 Merchant breaks a chair over Marine's head
LBB1 Trooper breaks a bottle on the Merchant's.
Book 4 Mercenary HOOOOOOOOOOOM expertly takes out the wall and everyone in the bar with the VRF Gauss..
Mercenary gets out and looks fruitlessly for something to drink.
Book 5 Cruiser wastes Book 1 Cruiser in orbit with a radioactive hail of particle beams, then erases the bar with her spinal Meson.
Book 6 Scout saddles up and looks for another bar.
Book 7 Merchant buys the land the bar used to be on for a handful of beads, and considers opening another bar once the dust settles.
Book 8 Robot shows up with a mop and waits for instructions.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
chshrkt
SOC-12
...in a waldo perhaps?You sure that's not a Hiver?
That's gonna be one heck of a small Hiver though, or a particularly hefty mop toting service 'bot. Maybe it's got extra Rad protection...
For me, personally, the risk of death in chargen means nothing unless I am momentarily pressed for time. I once wanted an old thief and it took 5 'other' characters before 1 survived to age 60+. It takes 5 minutes to roll all of the survival, promotion and reenlistment rolls - 25 minutes to get what I wanted - and I still had another 5 sets of statistics waiting just in case.
Enlistment bothers me more than survival. Who wants to be forced to play a Marine when they wanted to be a Scout or Merchant (pilot/engineer) but failed the enlistment and got burned on the draft.
How hard can it really be to join the Armed Force of your choice?
